Well, I Have It Now...

[BlitzPig_EL]

Initial impressions, based on very short seat time and only one online session.

 

It's a pretty world, no issues with the maps at all, airfields are good looking, Stalingrad looks very good too.  Love the smoke and fires.

 

The aircraft exterior models are very good looking, the cockpits are usable, but don't have the visual appeal of CloD, as that is the gold standard for cockpit modeling, but I understand the need

for lightening the graphics load, and shortening the time to make models, and as we all know cockpits take two to three times the time to make as the external models.

 

Still mucking about with control setups so only did one flight offline in expert mode, just to see how difficult takeoffs and landings are.

 

Three of us Pigs went online just to try it in the US Normal server.  Connecting was easy, dealing with the G2s hovering over the airfield... not so much.

 

Sometimes I hear hits on my airframe, and sometimes not.  Odd.  Game froze/CTD on me when I hit my bailout key by mistake...  Another one to ponder.

 

Subjectively, the planes feel more like original IL2/46 than they do CloD.  Normal or Expert settings.  Something is indeed "off" in the weight or mass calculations as the planes feel more like WW1 kites than

high powered WW2 aircraft.   I hope FM work continues, the sim deserves it, as I see lots of potential here.  That said, the planes I flew so far (LaGG, Yak 1, IL2) all had their own "personality" which is good.

 

I need to spend a lot of time fine tuning controls and getting more seat time.

 

Oh, needs some sort of map that comes up in Expert mode too.

 

Well, that's it so far.

[oneeyeddog]

ElAurens, 'o' will bring up a full screen map for you in Expert mode.

Edited December 20, 2014 by oneeyeddog

[BlitzPig_EL]

Thanks.   I kept mashing the "m" key... LOL!

[Yakdriver]

I am siriously surprised...

 

350+ posts and you never had any stick time.

as i said to a buddy of mine this morning, who got the retail version...

 

"welcome to the grind"!

[tongue in cheek, not serious at all !!]

 

Glad to have you aboard. +1!!

Edited December 20, 2014 by Yakdriver

[Willy__]

 

 

Thanks.   I kept mashing the "m" key... LOL!

 

The M key map only works on servers with normal difficult. IMHO, that map is useless, its tiny and you cant zoom and move around like you can in the "O" key map. 

[ACG_Smokejumper]

Welcome, nice to see more Westerners playing. Gets lonely in the servers come West Coast evenings.

 

I agree on the heavy feeling of the Russian aircraft.

Edited December 20, 2014 by CDN-SMOKEJUMPER

[BlitzPig_EL]

Welcome, nice to see more Westerners playing. Gets lonely in the servers come West Coast evenings.

 

I agree on the heavy feeling of the Russian aircraft.

 

Heavy Russian aircraft?

 

This feels more like a global FM issue, and I'm starting to think it's not weight/mass/gravity related.

 

I'm theorizing that the game engine is either calculating the effect of control surface deflection wrong (it thinks they are moving more/faster than they really are) or the sizes of the control surfaces and or wing area are either not being correctly calculated by the game engine, or the incorrect values for them have been input across the board.

 

In any case the aircraft, all of them, are behaving like they are all too light, or have gigantic wing/control surface areas.  Which is one way you could make WW1 aircraft behave like the super light kites that they were.

 

But this is not WW1.

 

Still the sim shows promise if these niggling faults can be ironed out in a timely manner.

[Bearcat]

I am siriously surprised...

 

350+ posts and you never had any stick time.

as i said to a buddy of mine this morning, who got the retail version...

 

"welcome to the grind"!

[tongue in cheek, not serious at all !!]

 

Glad to have you aboard. +1!!

 

El is a deliberate man... not the kind of person to just dive off a pier... LOL

[LizLemon]

 

In any case the aircraft, all of them, are behaving like they are all too light, or have gigantic wing/control surface areas. Which is one way you could make WW1 aircraft behave like the super light kites that they were.

 

I agree.

 

It seems like the gust response/gust load is off. Maybe a tweak they did to get the "feel" right for ww1 aircraft?

 

 

No way should the 109 with its wingloading bounce around like it does at 350+ mph.

[BlitzPig_EL]

El is a deliberate man... not the kind of person to just dive off a pier... LOL

 

 

Thanks Bearcat.  I will admit that the sale price helped some, but the real change was reports from my friends who started flying the sim, and a new Nvidia card that allows me to run the thing fairly well on an older machine.

 

I wish the folks at 1C had not pushed the devs for such an early release date, another three or four months would have made the release a lot better for all of us, but, it is what it is, and if the folks in Moscow don't pull the plug it will eventually be a really good thing.

 

And I'm surprising myself by saying that.

 

I hope that the priority will be to work on the FMs and DMs, and not a mad rush to add new shiny bits (aircraft) just to please everyone (myself included) that wants their favorite plane added right now.

[GP*]

All excellent observations. I agree 100%.

 

And if I remember correctly from another thread, you ride a Triumph, which means your judgement is "above average."

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

Welcome mate

[Jason_Williams]

Thanks Bearcat.  I will admit that the sale price helped some, but the real change was reports from my friends who started flying the sim, and a new Nvidia card that allows me to run the thing fairly well on an older machine.

 

I wish the folks at 1C had not pushed the devs for such an early release date, another three or four months would have made the release a lot better for all of us, but, it is what it is, and if the folks in Moscow don't pull the plug it will eventually be a really good thing.

 

And I'm surprising myself by saying that.

 

I hope that the priority will be to work on the FMs and DMs, and not a mad rush to add new shiny bits (aircraft) just to please everyone (myself included) that wants their favorite plane added right now.

 

I'm glad you bought the sim El Aurens, but what are you going on about? NO ONE pushed us to do anything early. ALL decisions are made by us, no mythical, evil 1C. We are 1CGS (1C-77 Ltd.). A very small group of managers and owners who are the devs. You guys really have the wrong impression of what 1C is. All is according to the plan set 2 years ago. This was always going to be a rolling release starting with our Early Access. We have done exactly what we said we would do.

 

 

Jason

[Kogru]

The lagg3 was severely underpowered and the early yak series whilst better, still were no match for the 109s during this period of the war. They are suppose to feel heavy as they are completely outclassed in engine performance.

 

As for the constant movement of the aircraft, i agree its quite off. Planes don't constantly move around like they do in this sim, especially at high speeds.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I think some of you are missing the point, NONE of the aircraft feel heavy. 

 

This isn't a Red vs. Blue argument. It's not about the relative performance of the early VVS aircraft vs. the Luftwaffe planes, it's a GLOBAL problem with the FMs.

 

Currently a modern real Cessna 172 (though I admit it's been some time since I was at the controls of one) feels far more "massive" for lack of a better term, than any of the far far heavier and more highly wing loaded fighters in the sim.

 

This is the point.

[Leaf]

I think some of you are missing the point, NONE of the aircraft feel heavy. 

 

This isn't a Red vs. Blue argument. It's not about the relative performance of the early VVS aircraft vs. the Luftwaffe planes, it's a GLOBAL problem with the FMs.

 

Currently a modern real Cessna 172 (though I admit it's been some time since I was at the controls of one) feels far more "massive" for lack of a better term, than any of the far far heavier and more highly wing loaded fighters in the sim.

 

This is the point.

 

I've never flown an aircraft, so I can't judge, but here's my opinion:

 

Real-life pilots have commented on this sims FM and say it's one of the most authentic representations of flight in a game ever. That's got to count for something, right?

Secondly, I think most of us have been in commercial airliners and have, at some point, experienced turbulence (around the plane, that is). If a large airliner can shake around that much due to turbulence, imagine what it does to a relatively small, light, fighter.

And what should the devs do about it? Make all the planes heavier?

 

Personally I think it's fine as it is.

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2014 by 19te.Leaf

[Yakdriver]

aargh stop it.

she is beautiful with the long nose and all.
her proportions even forgive her unclean engine cowlings and the weak armament.

The UB version [2x20?] would be a blast to have.

[Mags]

The MiG-3...it would be a blast to have that one...

[BlitzPig_EL]

Well, the real pilots in my "squad" that have flown it all say it's not right.

 

So, there you have it, a bunch of opinions about a game.   But I trust the guys I fly with, and my own observations.

 

Oh, and the ground handling of the FW 190 is comedy gold.   And yes, I know how to lock the tail wheel, and I have toe brakes mapped to my pedal set.

 

It's odd, the FW seems to have no weight at all on the ground, yet in flight is does firm up some, though it still suffers from the wobblies.

 

I really think this is a misplaced input in the code somewhere, which is easy to do when you have what, a million lines of code in a flight sim.

[SCG_Neun]

I think some of you are missing the point, NONE of the aircraft feel heavy. 

 

This isn't a Red vs. Blue argument. It's not about the relative performance of the early VVS aircraft vs. the Luftwaffe planes, it's a GLOBAL problem with the FMs.

 

Currently a modern real Cessna 172 (though I admit it's been some time since I was at the controls of one) feels far more "massive" for lack of a better term, than any of the far far heavier and more highly wing loaded fighters in the sim.

 

This is the point.

This is also an area that I have to agree with you....I feel like a kite sometimes.....

[ACG_Smokejumper]

I agree.

 

It seems like the gust response/gust load is off. Maybe a tweak they did to get the "feel" right for ww1 aircraft?

 

 

No way should the 109 with its wingloading bounce around like it does at 350+ mph.

 

 

It especially behaves badly with gun pods. Wallows around all over the place at high speed.

 

 

Heavy is how I describe the feeling. Like an overloaded truck with clapped out suspension and low tire pressure on the highway and you have decided to wiggle the steering wheel for kicks.

 

 

Your Cessna description I understand. I have flown them very often in Air Cadets as a teenager in Canada during the 90s. When you move the control column she goes where you want without it swaying all over the sky. I've seen them do insane aerobatics as well. Very stable. I feel like I would line up more accurate shots behind that steering column in comparison to this game.

 

Why I say they feel heavy is my truck analogy.

 

 

You sound like you have some good flight SIM so now I guess that "heavy feeling" is that it's a kite and getting blown everywhere. Makes sense.

 

Thanks!

I've never flown an aircraft, so I can't judge, but here's my opinion:

 

Real-life pilots have commented on this sims FM and say it's one of the most authentic representations of flight in a game ever. That's got to count for something, right?

Secondly, I think most of us have been in commercial airliners and have, at some point, experienced turbulence (around the plane, that is). If a large airliner can shake around that much due to turbulence, imagine what it does to a relatively small, light, fighter.

And what should the devs do about it? Make all the planes heavier?

 

Personally I think it's fine as it is.

 

 

 

 

 

We are talking about the severe wobble.

 

They don't do that in real life when you apply a little rudder.

[Bearcat]

I'm glad you bought the sim El Aurens, but what are you going on about? NO ONE pushed us to do anything early. ALL decisions are made by us, no mythical, evil 1C. We are 1CGS (1C-77 Ltd.). A very small group of managers and owners who are the devs. You guys really have the wrong impression of what 1C is. All is according to the plan set 2 years ago. This was always going to be a rolling release starting with our Early Access. We have done exactly what we said we would do.

Jason

 

 

It especially behaves badly with gun pods. Wallows around all over the place at high speed.

 

 

Yeah it is supposed to. Those pods were drag magnets.not to mention heavy.

 

Guys one thing that we all need to keep in mind with this is that BoS is still a work in progress. I have no doubt that things will be constantly evolving and many thinsg that we see wrong the devs will see them too..

[Danziger]

They just did a big update for the FMs on RoF so I am sure any real problems in BoS will be addressed as soon as they get the time.

[LizLemon]

They just did a big update for the FMs on RoF so I am sure any real problems in BoS will be addressed as soon as they get the time.

Lets just hope they dont take as long to roll out fm fixes as they did with rof.

 

I doubt the ww2 simmers are willing to wait years.

[GP*]

I've never flown an aircraft, so I can't judge, but here's my opinion:

 

Real-life pilots have commented on this sims FM and say it's one of the most authentic representations of flight in a game ever. That's got to count for something, right?

Secondly, I think most of us have been in commercial airliners and have, at some point, experienced turbulence (around the plane, that is). If a large airliner can shake around that much due to turbulence, imagine what it does to a relatively small, light, fighter.

And what should the devs do about it? Make all the planes heavier?

 

Personally I think it's fine as it is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I keep reading this, but I've yet to actually see hordes of "real life pilots" saying the global FM issues in question are correct.

 

Add me to the "real life pilot" group. And I strongly believe that, while the sim is fantastic, there is absolutely an issue with all FMs as El has mentioned.

 

PM me if you want my resume to legitimize my claims.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Prefontaine

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

Real-life pilots have commented on this sims FM and say it's one of the most authentic representations of flight in a game ever. That's got to count for something, right?

 

-snip-

 

 

If I recall, it was Han who said "anecdotal evidence" had no place in the development of their simulator.

 

Also, hey Haashashin. Happy holidays, mate!

[Feathered_IV]

I tend to agree that the inherent wobble in all aircraft feels like a global issue with the game engine rather than with individual FM's.

Perhaps it's a throwback to RoF and the original Digital Nature engine where hard rudder could allow the aircraft to track from right to left like a turret.

[ACG_Smokejumper]

 

 

 

Yeah it is supposed to. Those pods were drag magnets.not to mention heavy.

 

Guys one thing that we all need to keep in mind with this is that BoS is still a work in progress. I have no doubt that things will be constantly evolving and many thinsg that we see wrong the devs will see them too..

 

 

I disagree that it's "supposed to". They where designed to have as little impact on performance as possible. Slower, less roll rate, slower climb etc. This was fine German engineering at its best. These guys machined the throw away pull pins for hand grenades out of brass..... I am positive that the additional weight would not give this wallowing slip and slide feeling of an overloaded truck now grossly overloaded with wing pods.

 

 

We know it's a work in progress. That's why we are discussing it and the conversation is not awful. We are having fun after all.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

To pilots I have a question. 

 

If you fly the sim with no wind present is the way all the planes feel/handle still "off" or is it only when there is wind present?  If there is a problem I'm just wondering if it might be the modeling of the effect of wind that could be the culprit.

 

I've only flown ultralights and sometimes the IL2 seems like one when wind is present.

 

 

Edit: The only anecdotal thing I would add is that when I flew in the nose of a B-17, my first impression was that it felt like I was in an ultralight, go figure.

Edited December 21, 2014 by VR_Stick

[LizLemon]

Keep in mind that the B-17 didn't have all the military equipment that one in service would, nor did it have a bunch of ammo and bombs and I'm assuming something far less then full fuel load.

 

I think one of the core issues with the fm is gust response - which is highly dependant on wing loading. I dont find it surprising that an underloaded B-17 would feel like an ultralight owing to the low wing loading.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I disagree that it's "supposed to". They where designed to have as little impact on performance as possible. Slower, less roll rate, slower climb etc. This was fine German engineering at its best. These guys machined the throw away pull pins for hand grenades out of brass..... I am positive that the additional weight would not give this wallowing slip and slide feeling of an overloaded truck now grossly overloaded with wing pods.

 

 

We know it's a work in progress. That's why we are discussing it and the conversation is not awful. We are having fun after all.

 

 

The gun pods put a lot of weight, no matter how well crafted, in a very bad place.  They will adversely affect the center of gravity, greatly reduce roll rate, add quite a bit if drag, and turn a lithe airframe like the 109 into a flying bus.

 

Even fine German engineering is not immune to the laws of physics.

[Danziger]

Not to mention the recoil of the gun pods when they are firing out of synch will make the plane yaw back and forth like crazy.

[Jade_Monkey]

I feel like all the people commenting on how planes feel lighter have one thing in common. They all come from CLOD.

What if... CLoD was the one with heavier planes than they should? 

 

I'm just throwing the idea out there. I have no proof or anything like that. Hopefully someone can bring some good evidence that proves or disproves the things mentioned above.

[ACG_Smokejumper]

I'm glad you bought the sim El Aurens, but what are you going on about? NO ONE pushed us to do anything early. ALL decisions are made by us, no mythical, evil 1C. We are 1CGS (1C-77 Ltd.). A very small group of managers and owners who are the devs. You guys really have the wrong impression of what 1C is. All is according to the plan set 2 years ago. This was always going to be a rolling release starting with our Early Access. We have done exactly what we said we would do.

 

 

Jason

 

 

It's always assumed you're an evil corporation first.

 

 

Maybe some PR campaign. 

 

 

Hey, we're not dicks.

The gun pods put a lot of weight, no matter how well crafted, in a very bad place.  They will adversely affect the center of gravity, greatly reduce roll rate, add quite a bit if drag, and turn a lithe airframe like the 109 into a flying bus.

 

Even fine German engineering is not immune to the laws of physics.

 

 

I understand that but it won't make it wobble like the tires have been deflated either.

 

I don't expect adding 150kg? per wing would let it remain nimble.

Edited December 22, 2014 by CDN-SMOKEJUMPER

[BladeMeister]

I have always stated that I felt like the FMs feel  to light. I have flown ROF a lot and  it just feels somewhat similar to that in some way. I hope they do look into this as one of their first major priorities.

 

S!Blade<><     Merry Christmas 

[=LD=Penshoon]

Just curious, what kind of sticks are you using? I think most of these issues exist because our hardware is very different. 

 

1# Joystick doesn't have the same movement range as on a real ones. A tiny movement on our sticks results bigger deflection in game. 

 

2# Most sticks are centered by a mechanical spring and not aero forces. Dampening the oscillations without a force feedback stick is impossible for me but definitely manageable with FFB. Just looking at someone else flying in multiplayer I can see if he is using a ffb stick or not as the planes fly much less erratic with ffb. 

 

[Solmyr]

I'm not sure about your "wrong planes behaviour" opinion, Sure it could be more realistic, but to my mind it seems to be very realistic yet.

 

 

 

1# Joystick doesn't have the same movement range as on a real ones. A tiny movement on our sticks results bigger deflection in game.    2# Most sticks are centered by a mechanical spring and not aero forces. Dampening the oscillations without a force feedback stick is impossible for me but definitely manageable with FFB. Just looking at someone else flying in multiplayer I can see if he is using a ffb stick or not as the planes fly much less erratic with ffb.   

 

This discussion is simply corrupted since the start, all that depending of our stuff, settings.

 

At this moment, the more I fly the different beasts, the more I like the sim, even if none of the more important issues in my opinion haven't been solved at this moment. Let's give some time to dev team, if they continue to improve the game, I'm fine with it. If ever they abondon us, ok I will be very angry.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Solmyr

[=LD=Penshoon]

I'm not sure about your "wrong planes behaviour" opinion, Sure it could be more realistic, but to my mind it seems to be very realistic yet.

 

 

 

 

This discussion is simply corrupted since the start, all that depending of our stuff, settings.

 

At this moment, the more I fly the different beasts, the more I like the sim, even if none of the more important issues in my opinion haven't been solved at this moment. Let's give some time to dev team, if they continue to improve the game, I'm fine with it. If ever they abondon us, ok I will be very angry.

Yeah, I could buy the whole "it doesn't feel right"  if everybody was using the same hardware but we are not. Force feedback does make up for it a bit though and I seriously recommend trying one in BOS if any of you haven't. Many people think it just makes the stick shake and it's gimmicky.

 

I remember the guy who talked me into getting a MSFFB2 instead of waiting for the x55 with it's spring changing system to be released. He argued that the Force feedback was like having a joystick with hundreds of different springs for each axis and that the game could switch between them several times per second. That sold me instantly! 

[Solmyr]

I have a FFB2, and I'd say the FFB is pretty good for most common situations, and probably it's better with than without, even if they should improve its behaviour in some particular, more rare situations.

[GP*]

I've tried this game with my MS FFB2 stick.

 

I've also used a CH combat stick.

 

I play it currently with a Warthog.

 

My observation of instability has not changed at all.