Fly by wire mouse/KB controls like Warthunder?

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Just wait until the masses of PS4 casual players arrive to play WT using their gamepad joysticks to fly the plane, and they find they are at a disadvantage over pc players using their mouse instructor. I'm affraid it's really going to hit the fan.

 

Wait wut??? The ps4 players mouse aim players are all going to be on the same servers? OMG. Where is my pop corn? This is going to be good.

[ST_ami7b5]

Wait wut??? The ps4 players mouse aim players are all going to be on the same servers? OMG. Where is my pop corn? This is going to be good.

Yes, it was confirmed.

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

That feature has no place in a flight sim.

 

 

This.

that

[Mac_Messer]

We know a lot about how to make a mouse aim system. Trust me we do. In my opinion knowing what I know, a mouse aim system coupled to a full real flight model like we have would be a disaster for the mouse pilot. Any decent pilot in a cockpit with a TrackIR would wipe the floor with him. For one, they would need to fly in the 3rd person and unless we give them a "radar" to locate enemy planes (which we don't) it's not easy. Even using the hat to look around it's not easy and can be very disorienting. I've tried it and I suck at it. 

 

Putting people in our cockpits is a good thing. I personally don't care for mouse aim, but if it means a million paying customers we'd consider it, but I'm sure we'd make sure it didn't ruin the fun for the hardcore sim fans.

 

And please don't read anything into what I just said because mouse-aim is not currently on the table for BOS. If that changes I'd let you know.

 

Jason

 

Seeing how many "founders" BoS has so far, even 50000 of such mouse players would make a difference.

 

Did you think your post was missed the first time, and you deleted it to repost it?

 

The founders numbers are going to be far smaller than the release, because it's alpha and beta access. So they aren't marketing it. It's the more serious, involved and interested players that want in early because they want to test and see how it plays, and offer input.

 

50000 joymouse players would be awesome.

 

50000 mouseaim players, go read the WT forums. It's a nightmare.

My posts got deleted not by me.

 

The fact is that the founders numbers is the only real customer data you have today. You can preach all you can about the future but that number isn`t big enough not to reconsider enabling something to lure more casual players. 1CGS has now an indication of what interest the beta has gathered and they have to work on that numerical data ie. change their attitude towards the market. It is not too late, so they should change few things to make sure the player base enlarges at release day.

Like Heywood said : do it like it was always done - server controlled. Give people options. Keep out the mouse players from realistic servers. Thinking doesn`t hurt.

[Mogster]

I'm not against this in principle, if it attracts new players to the sim then that's a good thing. On the other hand if mouse fly, or whatever it's called, becomes very popular then the dev's will be forced into splitting time between the two groups of players. Also I don't see how the two input systems could be compatible at all online, mousers would get taken down easilly by a half decent pilot with a stick which will make them angry and demanding concessions. This seems to be happening at WT.

 

I say don't waste dev time on this.

[FuriousMeow]

The fact is that the founders numbers is the only real customer data you have today. You can preach all you can about the future but that number isn`t big enough not to reconsider enabling something to lure more casual players. 1CGS has now an indication of what interest the beta has gathered and they have to work on that numerical data ie. change their attitude towards the market. It is not too late, so they should change few things to make sure the player base enlarges at release day.

Like Heywood said : do it like it was always done - server controlled. Give people options. Keep out the mouse players from realistic servers. Thinking doesn`t hurt.

 

I don't know how else to explain it, this game hasn't been marketed - Founders is not targeted to the masses. Of course this is the only data, and it's nothing to be worried about to change their plans so prematurely. The only data the other not-yet-developed WW2 sim has is the KS. Is that indicitive of how many will want to purchase it when it's actually released? They aren't luring more players right now because it's not even close to done, that would be asinine to get  a bunch of people in and then they all complain about how terrible and unfinished it is because that's the point! It's alpha/beta access and they don't want to turn people off that aren't as serious expecting a fully developed sim at this time when it still has at least 7 months of development to go.

 

And of course this game will appeal to mouse users. RoF already does. So running around like they are being excluded is simply silly and foolish. The only thing not being done at this time is redesigning the control system and implementing an AI to fly the plane for MouseAim users.

 

Thinking doesn't hurt, you should give it a shot sometime.

Edited September 21, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[Mac_Messer]

And of course this game will appeal to mouse users. RoF already does. So running around like they are being excluded is simply silly and foolish. The only thing not being done at this time is redesigning the control system and implementing an AI to fly the plane for MouseAim users.

 

Thinking doesn't hurt, you should give it a shot sometime.

The only thing silly here is that you don't understand the basic concept of giving peple options. Edited September 21, 2013 by Mac_Messer

[Crow]

The only thing silly here is that you don't understand the basic concept of giving peple options.

The only flaw in this logic is that given a choice between easy and hard, 99% of people are going to choose easy. If mouse aim/instructor mode (not mouse axes/simulated joystick) is implemented, everyone would have no reason to fly with a joystick because it is a superior way to maneuver the aircraft.

 

I consider myself a competent hardcore-flight-sim pilot and I couldn't touch newbies using mouse aim with my joystick in WT. I had to switch to mouse aim to be competitive. There's simply no question that it is easier and more effective. Any time I play WT, I play arcade mode with mouse aim because it is the only way to really enjoy that game.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

The only thing silly here is that you don't understand the basic concept of giving peple options.

I don't recall if you answered this. But would you ask for this in dcs? If not than it has nonplace here either. However mouse fly is acceptable, mouse aim is the biggest travesty to hit flight games since hacks were invented for mp cheating.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Hooves

[=LD=Scronce]

Once I started flying stick on WT I couldn't go back to mouse, It felt so dirty and cheap just pointing my plane to the sky and going in a straight line forever.

[ST_ami7b5]

I don't recall if you answered this. But would you ask for this in dcs? If not than it has nonplace here either. However mouse fly is acceptable, mouse aim is the biggest travesty to hit flight games since hacks were invented for mp cheating.

 

This!

I have asked him too - no reply.

Not a fair guy IMHO.

[RoboticPope]

The only flaw in this logic is that given a choice between easy and hard, 99% of people are going to choose easy. If mouse aim/instructor mode (not mouse axes/simulated joystick) is implemented, everyone would have no reason to fly with a joystick because it is a superior way to maneuver the aircraft.

 

I consider myself a competent hardcore-flight-sim pilot and I couldn't touch newbies using mouse aim with my joystick in WT. I had to switch to mouse aim to be competitive. There's simply no question that it is easier and more effective. Any time I play WT, I play arcade mode with mouse aim because it is the only way to really enjoy that game.

 

A hardcore flight sim pilot would be playing Full realistic were mouse-aim doesn't exist. There are lots of people playing FRB with joysticks and enjoying the game (a good number waiting for IL-2).

The flaw in your logic is those 99% of people choose to play easy on arcade because they are playing as a job, grinding out xp to unlock stuff, they are no longer playing for enjoyment or to learn and improve their skill.  If WT gave them some reason to better themselves it would be different, but with the unbalanced overpowered mouse-aim it does the opposite, this is it's failing.

 

Il-2:BoS will make you want to improve your skill, you'll get no advantage for stagnation at the lowest difficulty, you will fly for the enjoyment and to learn. This is why a very high percentage of players in Il-2:BoS will choose to play with as high a difficult level as possible. This is one reason why mouse-aim isn't a feasible thing to spend development time on (it really isn't an easy thing to do), even new players to flightsims would choose to move beyond a mouse-aim system in a short amount of time.

 

The people who are saying mouse-aim has no place in a flightsim are also wrong though. If development time and money were not an issue, a correctly balanced mouse-aim that is properly limiting to make beginners want to move on to mouse-joy or to buy a joystick would be a useful option.

 

I also think some people need to have a bit more respect for what WT is doing for the genre, you only have to look at these posts to see the new players that have come from WT. Even if it is only a tiny minority of the millions of casual players, that will choose to learn and improve up to full realistic battles in the face of pay-to-win, grinding and unlocking, and in turn arrive here wanting more realism, still that number will be large for Il-2 and important for the flightsim genre's future. You are profiting from WT.

Edited September 21, 2013 by RoboticPope

[Crow]

A hardcore flight sim pilot would be playing Full realistic were mouse-aim doesn't exist. There are lots of people playing FRB with joysticks and enjoying the game (a good number waiting for IL-2).

The flaw in your logic is those 99% of people choose to play easy on arcade because they are playing as a job, grinding out xp to unlock stuff, they are no longer playing for enjoyment or to learn and improve their skill.  If WT gave them some reason to better themselves it would be different, but with the unbalanced overpowered mouse-aim it does the opposite, this is it's failing.

No, a hardcore flight simmer would not play FRB in WT because it has a joke of a flight and damage model. I tried very hard to like FRB, but in the end it is complete garbage and not fun.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Crow

[BMA_West]

Probably the right moment to point out how exactly the hosting happens in ROF and so may be in BOS to: it largely depends on the community just like the missions running.

So it will largely depend on you all, guys/squads.

1C/777Studios just runs the master server, actually on an Amazon platform I believe.

If mouse-aim would eventually get integrated in the packet it would only become available through the server-settings and so only through you guys!

In ROF everybody is able to host either out of the a running game: select Multiplayer and on the bottom line you have the cage "create server".

But firstly in order to reach the master server you need to activate on your router/modem the ports mentioned on the right tab, under "network", of the settings interface (activating shortcut for settings.exe).

If you host directly through an active game you'll end up on your server in the mission you selected to run.

Once the game is running this way you may even open the editor for changing that mission on the fly.

Or you can activate the Dserver.exe and let it open a configured *.sds file which will contact the master server and start running the missions you integrated in that sds-file.

That .sds file also needs the account info: email and password.

Every game contains a default .sds file you may copy for configuration and completion of server-options and -settings.

One may make a number of different .sds files to chose from following the occasion.

How many players your server will be able to take depends on your available upload, used to be 4 player/Mbps but that may now well have become x2 with recent changes.

You may password your server, even only run it on your local intranet.

If you want to run a Dserver you probable will be able to obtain a free BOS account through Han, of course that account will only be good to run a Dserver.

We dont know yet if we will be able to run our own server in an early stage yet ...sure hope so.

Edited September 21, 2013 by West

[Heywooood]

The only flaw in this logic is that given a choice between easy and hard, 99% of people are going to choose easy. If mouse aim/instructor mode (not mouse axes/simulated joystick) is implemented, everyone would have no reason to fly with a joystick because it is a superior way to maneuver the aircraft.

 

I consider myself a competent hardcore-flight-sim pilot and I couldn't touch newbies using mouse aim with my joystick in WT. I had to switch to mouse aim to be competitive. There's simply no question that it is easier and more effective. Any time I play WT, I play arcade mode with mouse aim because it is the only way to really enjoy that game.

so the real concern isn't over the difference between mouse aim and mouse fly...its about online competitiveness. And the fact that I have stated repeatedly that the difference between the two methods is irrelevant IF the mouse aim/fly pilots are kept seperated from the 'hardcore flight simmers' by a server side selection (allow mouse aim = yes/no) or offline use only - is that right?

 

the real concern among 'hardcore flight simmers' is that there would be no such seperation?

that 1CGS would have mouse aimer gamers *gasp* in the same pool with the elitist 'serious hardcore whatchamajiggers'

and that all such hardcore elitists (or 99% of them) would be forced to surrender to the mouse - so they could 'compete' and 'enjoy' BoS....like you currently enjoy WT - is that right??

 

Probable the right moment to point out how exactly the hosting happens in ROF and so probably in BOS to: it largely depends on the community just like the missions running.

So it will largely depend on you all, guys/squads.

1C/777Studios just runs the master server, actually on an Amazon platform I believe.

If mouse-aim would eventually get integrated in the packet it would only become available through the server-settings.

In ROF everybody is able to host either out of the a running game: select Multiplayer and on the bottom line you have the cage "create server".

But firstly in order to reach the master server you need to activate on your router/modem the ports mentioned on the right tab, under "network", of the settings interface (activating shortcut for settings.exe).

If you host directly through an active game you'll end up on your server in the mission you selected to run.

Once the game is running this way you may even open the editor for changing that mission on the fly.

Or you can activate the Dserver.exe and let it open a configured *.sds file which will contact the master server and start running the missions you integrated in that sds-file.

That .sds file also needs the account info: email and password.

Every game contains a default .sds file you may copy for configuration and completion of server-options and -settings.

One may make a number of different .sds files to chose from following the occasion.

How many players your server will be able to take depends on your available upload, used to be 4 player/Mbps but that may now well have become x2 with recent changes.

You may password your server, even only run it on your local intranet.

If you want to run a Dserver you probable will be able to obtain a free BOS account through Han, of course that account will only be good to run a Dserver.

We dont know yet if we will be able to run our own server in an early stage yet ...sure hope so.

 

very helpful - thanks for posting

[TheBlackPenguin]

A hardcore flight sim pilot would be playing Full realistic were mouse-aim doesn't exist. There are lots of people playing FRB with joysticks and enjoying the game (a good number waiting for IL-2).

The flaw in your logic is those 99% of people choose to play easy on arcade because they are playing as a job, grinding out xp to unlock stuff, they are no longer playing for enjoyment or to learn and improve their skill.  If WT gave them some reason to better themselves it would be different, but with the unbalanced overpowered mouse-aim it does the opposite, this is it's failing.

 

I am on it right now and there are a lot more people playing Arcade only than FRB, Historical is then second followed by FRB. WT is setup to be grinding MMO style, and honestly where did you get that 99% from?

 

 

Il-2:BoS will make you want to improve your skill, you'll get no advantage for stagnation at the lowest difficulty, you will fly for the enjoyment and to learn. This is why a very high percentage of players in Il-2:BoS will choose to play with as high a difficult level as possible. This is one reason why mouse-aim isn't a feasible thing to spend development time on (it really isn't an easy thing to do), even new players to flightsims would choose to move beyond a mouse-aim system in a short amount of time.

 

 

People fly for a variety of reasons, many may not want to learn beyond basics, and I get this from experience of playing sims since the 80's. Even then there was the more arcade liking player, nothing wrong with that imho at all, but its difficult if not impossible to please them both. WT is fun for sure, but its a completely different animal from Il2:Bos, DCS make no mistake. I think those people who seem to be moving from WT to BOS have their own ideas, but just from the forum it seems they want a more in-depth, realistic and immersive experience than the MMO style of WT and it seems most would have moved beyond mouse-aim already, which I think reinforces your last point even more.

 

 

The people who are saying mouse-aim has no place in a flightsim are also wrong though. If development time and money were not an issue, a correctly balanced mouse-aim that is properly limiting to make beginners want to move on to mouse-joy or to buy a joystick would be a useful option.

 

 

I disagree with this point, just look at WT, it will split the community even more than we're seeing just by discussing this point. The players who prefer arcade style are very likely to outnumber the realism fans and will likely demand more from the arcade aspects from WT, such as unlocking improvements to the flight model which will take it beyond spec further into fantasy land. And this is just flight model, on tier 1 for the Hurricane I can have fuselage repair, amongst other changes is +2mph to the speed of the plane, and this isn't the only unlock adding to its overall speed. There are other unlocks under the headings of survivability and weaponry.

 

 

 

I also think some people need to have a bit more respect for what WT is doing for the genre, you only have to look at these posts to see the new players that have come from WT. Even if it is only a tiny minority of the millions of casual players, that will choose to learn and improve up to full realistic battles in the face of pay-to-win, grinding and unlocking, and in turn arrive here wanting more realism, still that number will be large for Il-2 and important for the flightsim genre's future. You are profiting from WT.

 

Very true, its bringing in people who may want to learn and become better and try a full blown simulation instead . WT has its place, heck I enjoy the odd romp with arcade mode now and again.

[=LD=dhyran]

--........y. Mouse aim has no place in a serious sim.

 

THIS and only this should be underlined and signed! Because i could write a book how mouse aim destroys a complete community when its implemented in a sim!

If you wanna play BoS ,go buy a joystick and learn to fly! currently i think 95% here got a good Hotas setup and track IR, so why 95% should be faced with such stupid stuff! There is a game for mouse aim and it got a arcade mode where the majority of its playerbase hangs out, its WT, so keep BoS on the track and develop it as a top notch sim, that means, joystick, tracker and real fun to fly, nothing else please!

[Heywooood]

how many customers is 95% of us here?  and are we all there are?  that would be bad news if the only people who will ever buy BoS are founders...

 

would you cut off these developers from realising revenue from 200 times that many customers even if it had NO effect on how YOU play?

 

set aside the 'purist' arguments because they dont apply if it is a simple server side setting that keeps things seperated

Edited September 21, 2013 by Heywooood

[71st_AH_Hooves]

how many customers is 95% of us here?  and are we all there are?  that would be bad news if the only people who will ever buy BoS are founders...

 

would you cut off these developers from realising revenue from 200 times that many customers even if it had NO effect on how YOU play?

 

set aside the 'purist' arguments because they dont apply if it is a simple server side setting that keeps things seperated

Heywood I gotta say you are WAY off here dude, Mouse aim will DESTROY this game.  Because the majority of mouse aimers (not all ) are mouth breathin, wastes who care NOTHING than to get the LEET high score!  IT wouldnt matter to them if you were flying "My little pony"  (oh wait they already did that......)rather than a historically modeled 109 or lagg.   Which has NO place in what BoS is trying to accomplish.  Separating the two has now created a rift between the two groups so deep that if you even let on that you enjoy a Joystick for a flight game over M/KB you get assailed in their forums,  Its a slippery slope that need not be repeated here.  All the evidence you need to see is on the WT forums.

 

Now I contend that Mouse Control is a completely different story.  a Virtual Stick is as difficult as a joystick.  And I would not feel slighted at all losing to one of those control schemes in a Dogfight (it probably meant I was on auto level getting a beer, lol) 

 

Seriously, a crap ton of more gamers sounds great in theory but a crap ton of players that kill a genre? I'd like the pure flightsim to stay the way it is for awhile they are doing just fine.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Hooves

[Heywooood]

set aside the 'purist' arguments because they dont apply if it is a simple server side setting that keeps things seperated

[Heywooood]

I expect that Jasons post is a good indication that 777 is unlikely to pursue mouse aim..besides the vitriol in this thread, cursing its very existence, even if it is seperated from traditional purist flight simmers by the game server - is most likely reinforcing that position...which is ok with me. As I said, I do not fly Warthunder so I don't really care what options they have or how they implement them. If mouse aim/fly gamers are mixed with 'serious hardcore simmers' then ofcourse there is a problem in WT...my position is - for the record -  I dont care what 777 1CGS offer for controls - as long as they are all optional and I can choose how I want to fly. Also - if I was to fly online - I would select servers that EXCLUDE mouse aim/fly because I use proper peripherals.

What I will NOT do is condemn 777 1CSG from doing whatever it takes to maximise their earning potential in a tight, small market, especially if it has no effect on me whatsoever.

 

what I see here is people saying that even offering the option, regardless of how its done - is a deal breaker...from what appears to be an egotistical position 

[=LD=Hethwill]

RoF already have the server side option of reduced difficulty, from 0.5 to 1.5 factor I presume.

 

Nothing prevents anyone using a mouse and keyboard already.... Only thing preventing its use for any given player is that they actually control the plane from its "control center" and not moving the the aim and the plane flying on its own. Major difference.

 

What is this idea all about !? No idea honestly. The option is already there and I don't see BoS being different.

Edited September 22, 2013 by =LD=Hethwill

[71st_AH_Hooves]

What you are Failing to understand Heywood, (since you don't play WT) is that your idea of separating the player base by server config, is Literally drawing the most divisive toxic line in the sand.  YOu haven't sen how vitriolic the MA'ers are toward the JS'ers.  Making it separate makes it OFFICIAL, they are two types of gamers now. and the feuds would be epic in scale.  The Purest argument is Totally relevant because it is the absolute core of what Flight sims are all about.  Allowing all these players in with easier controls and then locking out the participation of these servers will tear this games community in two.  Effectively destroying the thing you want to succeed.  Its just not worth it.

 

The worst part is that all of this has been proven in the WT forums.  It makes the old yellow forums look like a preschool.

RoF already have the server side option of reduced difficulty, from 0.5 to 1.5 factor I presume.

 

Nothing prevents anyone using a mouse and keyboard already.... Only thing preventing its use for any given player is that they actually control the plane from its "control center" and not moving the the aim and the plane flying on its own. Major difference.

 

What is this idea all about !? No idea honestly. The option is already there and I don't see BoS being different.

THis is what Im trying to say, Making it like this make sit no better than any joystick out there, which is TOTALLY acceptable.  Making the game easier, destroying the core of what the game is about in the first place is what will drag it into the mud.

[RoboticPope]

I am on it right now and there are a lot more people playing Arcade only than FRB, Historical is then second followed by FRB. WT is setup to be grinding MMO style, and honestly where did you get that 99% from? 

RoboticPope:From the quote I was replying to. I think you misunderstood my reply.  

 

 

I disagree with this point, just look at WT, it will split the community even more than we're seeing just by discussing this point. The players who prefer arcade style are very likely to outnumber the realism fans and will likely demand more from the arcade aspects from WT, such as unlocking improvements to the flight model which will take it beyond spec further into fantasy land. And this is just flight model, on tier 1 for the Hurricane I can have fuselage repair, amongst other changes is +2mph to the speed of the plane, and this isn't the only unlock adding to its overall speed. There are other unlocks under the headings of survivability and weaponry.

This is just a discusion, a discusion isn't going to split any community. The community split in WT forums is only because of the imbalance of mouse-aim due to how difficult it is to develop, and because everyone is playing in only 3 set difficulty levels. This is also why icons and aircraft visibility have caused arguements. If WT was like Il-2 and had many different difficulties set by each server then there would be no problem, You could join in a simulator game with aircraft icons or an arcade game that disallows mouse-aim. A joystick user would no longer have to choose between having not having icons and being up against mouse-aimers.

 

Having mouse-aim in Il-2 wouldn't suddenly bring in the numbers of arcade players that WT is having to deal with, so Il-2 would never have the situation were it is having to focus devlopment on arcade boosts and upgrades. MMO grind style free to play/pay to win is what brings the giant numbers of arcaders and that is why mouse-aim was needed for WT.

 

Grind style gameplay is also more likly to cause anger in players which is then vented though the forum.

 

 

Yes mmo and pay/grind to win is evil.

[TheBlackPenguin]

 

Having mouse-aim in Il-2 wouldn't suddenly bring in the numbers of arcade players that WT is having to deal with, so Il-2 would never have the situation were it is having to focus devlopment on arcade boosts and upgrades. MMO grind style free to play/pay to win is what brings the giant numbers of arcaders and that is why mouse-aim was needed for WT.

 

 

 

We don't know that for a fact, one point of discussion is to bring in the arcade players and as many as possible to create sales, however without an extensive advertising campaign to go with it its unlikely to really succeed, which conveniently goes back to the original point I think you made, that being its not worth the time and investment in the first place. ROF already has a lot of options to ease new people in as it is.

 

 

Grind style gameplay is also more likly to cause anger in players which is then vented though the forum.

 

 

Yes mmo and pay/grind to win is evil.

 

Yep .

[Heywooood]

why we are hung up on the fact that I don't play WarThunder I don't know - it doesn't matter.

as RoboPope says - all we're doing here is having a discussion

 

my point isn't about having or not having mouse aim - its about having whatever options available to users, even this one - so as not to restrict the influx of capital for development...but to seperate this selection on the server side

so that 'hardcore flight simmers' are not affected by the mousers.

 

how could it possibly 'ruin the sim' ? what I see here is people saying that even offering the option, regardless of how its done - is a deal breaker...from what appears to be an egotistical position

[TheBlackPenguin]

why we are hung up on the fact that I don't play WarThunder I don't know - it doesn't matter.

as RoboPope says - all we're doing here is having a discussion

 

my point isn't about having or not having mouse aim - its about having whatever options available to users, even this one - so as not to restrict the influx of capital for development...but to seperate this selection on the server side

so that 'hardcore flight simmers' are not affected by the mousers.

 

how could it possibly 'ruin the sim' ? what I see here is people saying that even offering the option, regardless of how its done - is a deal breaker...from what appears to be an egotistical position

 

Even at FRB the flight models cannot hold a candle to what you get in ROF or DCS (I have played War Thunder, even just tonight), and I do wonder how much they'd have to change just to make mouse-aim work with a higher fidelity simulation, its just not worth the effort as ROF already has a number of options to ease transition. This is not an egotistical position, rather one of technicality/resources and of the possibility that more arcade orientated players will want more arcade style features and vote so accordingly. If they're a small number, no problem, but if they outnumber the more serious simulation enthusiast....

 

Think of it like this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora%27s_box

[Heywooood]

once again the comparison is with WT FRB - which is their version of 'full real' or what old IL2ers used to call 'full switch'..yes?

 

but that has nothing to do with BoS 'full real' at all - inspite of your 'wondering' about any concessions BoS might or might not have to make...there is no evidence that ANY concessions would be likely...just 'concern' on the part of the fearful.

 

as to being 'worth the effort' -  that would be up to 777 and 1CGS - not any one of us - they are the ones most directly affected by cost / compensation

 

if the mousers have their own servers so to speak - who cares how many they are or if they out number us? 

 

and again the term 'serious simulation enthusiast' or 'hardcore flight simmer' points to ego - not reason

Edited September 22, 2013 by Heywooood

[71st_AH_Hooves]

why we are hung up on the fact that I don't play WarThunder I don't know - it doesn't matter.

as RoboPope says - all we're doing here is having a discussion

 

my point isn't about having or not having mouse aim - its about having whatever options available to users, even this one - so as not to restrict the influx of capital for development...but to seperate this selection on the server side

so that 'hardcore flight simmers' are not affected by the mousers.

 

how could it possibly 'ruin the sim' ? what I see here is people saying that even offering the option, regardless of how its done - is a deal breaker...from what appears to be an egotistical position

you Are mistaken,  How its done is what makes all the difference, Mouse AIM = bad,  Mouse control = OK.    ITs not ego, its watching what happened and is what happening in WT right now.  Just saying they can do it but if you make it EASIER than another method you create a rift, But thankfully Jason is a smart guy, who can come up with good ways to solve the problem.

[Bearcat]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[AbortedMan]

Wait wut??? The ps4 players mouse aim players are all going to be on the same servers? OMG. Where is my pop corn? This is going to be good.

This was my first reaction to this news as well, but then I saw a video of the console version being played at Gamescom and realized console players will have the equivalent to mouse-aim as well...the same "instructor, point me that way" type circle/reticle, only controlled by the thumbstick. I was bummed because console players using thumbsticks was the last bastion of hope for focus on a proper direct-control/non-instructor influence on the game and its modes.

 

how many customers is 95% of us here?  and are we all there are?  that would be bad news if the only people who will ever buy BoS are founders...

 

would you cut off these developers from realising revenue from 200 times that many customers even if it had NO effect on how YOU play?

 

set aside the 'purist' arguments because they dont apply if it is a simple server side setting that keeps things seperated

Any company venturing into the simulator market knows what they're getting into. There's obviously enough supply and demand in the sim market to warrant the handful of companies we have now to keep creating proper flight sims. If 777/1C wanted to have a customer base of tens of millions of people, they'd make a FPS or a MOBA game like other companies, or come up with something else that isn't as hamfistedly stupid and poisonous as mouse-aim. Stop saying adding mouse-aim on a server side variable won't effect the way people play, because it will. Imagine 777/1C added mouse-aim, and I'm looking at the server list seeing a plethora of populated servers..."Yay!" right? Oh, look at that, they're all using mouse-aim on these mouse-aim enabled servers...and I'm using a joystick. Fuck. Even if I were able to find a non-mouse-aim, joystick only server it'd probably full to the brim and I'd be in queue for an unenjoyable amount of time. Then there's the forum wars that would start...that you cannot deny. I'm not even going to mention the division of resources and assets the dev team will have to delegate to mouse-aim development and the subsequent tweaks/features/etc that will undoubtedly come after. 

 

why we are hung up on the fact that I don't play WarThunder I don't know - it doesn't matter.

as RoboPope says - all we're doing here is having a discussion

 

my point isn't about having or not having mouse aim - its about having whatever options available to users, even this one - so as not to restrict the influx of capital for development...but to seperate this selection on the server side

so that 'hardcore flight simmers' are not affected by the mousers.

 

how could it possibly 'ruin the sim' ? what I see here is people saying that even offering the option, regardless of how its done - is a deal breaker...from what appears to be an egotistical position

Everyone is hung up on the fact that you don't play War Thunder because it does matter. A lot.

 

You simply cannot quantify the effect, good or bad, of adding mouse-aim to a game like BoS. You literally have zero idea what you're talking about and the effects on the community, gameplay, meta-game, politics, resources, demographics...I could go on and on. 

 

Take a long hard look at the War Thunder forums. Go find and read all the 120+ some-odd pages of these threads:

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/55686-solution-to-all-these-wars-between-ma-and-js/

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/55626-should-instructor-and-or-mouse-aim-be-removed-in-hb-closed-cockpit-discussion/

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/47929-stop-asking-to-disable-instructor/

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/56035-highly-disappointed-with-frbhb-settings-spread/

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/55653-this-is-not-frb/

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/46788-changed-to-mouse-aim-and-wow/

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/36668-prophanging-at-its-finest/

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/33504-sick-of-instructor-and-mouse-aimers/

 

Go download the game, queue up for a Historic Battle mode match and tell me how you feel after about 10 matches while using a joystick knowing your opponents are ending your game with the same exact effort I make to move my mouse from my desktop to my start menu. Then realize separating control schemes would be fine solution, except War Thunder already does that in their "Full Real Battles" mode where joystick or mouse-joy is the only option (no assisted controls)...but then realize again that instead of the 25+ maps and 5 playable nations that are available in the mouse-aim player saturated Historic Battle mode, you get 1 map, and 2 playable nations...the reason? All development attention is where the mouse-aimers are and too busy to deal with the Full Real Battles mode. They're too busy satisfying the massive majority using the hand holding EZ-mode like any smart, money-making company would.

 

Is that what you want in BoS?

[Mac_Messer]

What I will NOT do is condemn 777 1CSG from doing whatever it takes to maximise their earning potential in a tight, small market, especially if it has no effect on me whatsoever.

 

what I see here is people saying that even offering the option, regardless of how its done - is a deal breaker...from what appears to be an egotistical position

Fully agreed.Be smart, not purist. I'm of the most hardcore simmer group and yet if mouseaim could be held at bay, I have nothing against it.

[ST_ami7b5]

Why are some people trying SO HARD to push BoS into arcade category?

[=LD=Hethwill]

Why are some people trying SO HARD to push BoS into arcade category?

 

Ace in a Day syndrome, i am sure of that.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Completely against it myself.

 

Anyway if people want mouse aim they can go and play AimThunder, what's the point in buying another game when that one already caters for this and has more aircraft?

[Revvin]

Many years ago Warbirds went through a bit of a civil war between two sets of players, there were the regular users and the relaxed realism users. They were always kept separate but were eventually mixed and it caused no end of problems between the groups and lots of regular players moved on because of it while the developers tried to work out a fair way of having both sets of players in the same arena and the differences were not so huge as the difference between mouse aim and joystick users in WT. I don't want that to happen with IL-2: BoS. It won't be long until mouse users want to be allowed into all servers and put pressure on the developer not to discriminate and take out any server side options to restrict control method. How long before the bean counters then decide that mouse aim pilots are where the money is and steer development towards that group and we lose another sim to those who have little interest in the flight dynamics, the history behind the planes and the skill required to co-ordinate rudder,stick and throttle input and instead just want air quake where the only goal is to boost stats and unlock incentives like Call of Duty?

[Bearcat]

This was my first reaction to this news as well, but then I saw a video of the console version being played at Gamescom and realized console players will have the equivalent to mouse-aim as well...the same "instructor, point me that way" type circle/reticle, only controlled by the thumbstick. I was bummed because console players using thumbsticks was the last bastion of hope for focus on a proper direct-control/non-instructor influence on the game and its modes.

 

 

Any company venturing into the simulator market knows what they're getting into. There's obviously enough supply and demand in the sim market to warrant the handful of companies we have now to keep creating proper flight sims. If 777/1C wanted to have a customer base of tens of millions of people, they'd make a FPS or a MOBA game like other companies, or come up with something else that isn't as hamfistedly stupid and poisonous as mouse-aim. Stop saying adding mouse-aim on a server side variable won't effect the way people play, because it will. Imagine 777/1C added mouse-aim, and I'm looking at the server list seeing a plethora of populated servers..."Yay!" right? Oh, look at that, they're all using mouse-aim on these mouse-aim enabled servers...and I'm using a joystick. Fuck. Even if I were able to find a non-mouse-aim, joystick only server it'd probably full to the brim and I'd be in queue for an unenjoyable amount of time. Then there's the forum wars that would start...that you cannot deny. I'm not even going to mention the division of resources and assets the dev team will have to delegate to mouse-aim development and the subsequent tweaks/features/etc that will undoubtedly come after. 

 

 

Everyone is hung up on the fact that you don't play War Thunder because it does matter. A lot.

 

You simply cannot quantify the effect, good or bad, of adding mouse-aim to a game like BoS. You literally have zero idea what you're talking about and the effects on the community, gameplay, meta-game, politics, resources, demographics...I could go on and on. 

 

Take a long hard look at the War Thunder forums. Go find and read all the 120+ some-odd pages of these threads:

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/55686-solution-to-all-these-wars-between-ma-and-js/

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/55626-should-instructor-and-or-mouse-aim-be-removed-in-hb-closed-cockpit-discussion/

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/47929-stop-asking-to-disable-instructor/

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/56035-highly-disappointed-with-frbhb-settings-spread/

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/55653-this-is-not-frb/

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/46788-changed-to-mouse-aim-and-wow/

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/36668-prophanging-at-its-finest/

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/33504-sick-of-instructor-and-mouse-aimers/

 

Go download the game, queue up for a Historic Battle mode match and tell me how you feel after about 10 matches while using a joystick knowing your opponents are ending your game with the same exact effort I make to move my mouse from my desktop to my start menu. Then realize separating control schemes would be fine solution, except War Thunder already does that in their "Full Real Battles" mode where joystick or mouse-joy is the only option (no assisted controls)...but then realize again that instead of the 25+ maps and 5 playable nations that are available in the mouse-aim player saturated Historic Battle mode, you get 1 map, and 2 playable nations...the reason? All development attention is where the mouse-aimers are and too busy to deal with the Full Real Battles mode. They're too busy satisfying the massive majority using the hand holding EZ-mode like any smart, money-making company would.

 

Is that what you want in BoS?

  

We know a lot about how to make a mouse aim system. Trust me we do. In my opinion knowing what I know, a mouse aim system coupled to a full real flight model like we have would be a disaster for the mouse pilot. Any decent pilot in a cockpit with a TrackIR would wipe the floor with him. For one, they would need to fly in the 3rd person and unless we give them a "radar" to locate enemy planes (which we don't) it's not easy. Even using the hat to look around it's not easy and can be very disorienting. I've tried it and I suck at it. 

 

Putting people in our cockpits is a good thing. I personally don't care for mouse aim, but if it means a million paying customers we'd consider it, but I'm sure we'd make sure it didn't ruin the fun for the hardcore sim fans.

 

And please don't read anything into what I just said because mouse-aim is not currently on the table for BOS. If that changes I'd let you know.

 

Jason

 

.... and on that note methinks this discussion has run it's course and needs to fade away never to rear it's ugly head again.