Fly by wire mouse/KB controls like Warthunder?

[Cybermat47]

I agree that implementing it into BoS could lure some arcade players aboard, maybe even many of them. Actually a big part of WT goers fly like this. For an option I think it would be smart but from what 1CGS representatives say, there is not time for this feature right now.

 

 

THIS!

 

Lure the arcade players in, but getting the bait ready after the trap is logical.

[ST_ami7b5]

Seems like trying to destroy BoS...

Suggest it on DCS:WWII forum and then let us know...

 

No mouse aim in BoS (or any sim) ever!

Edited September 20, 2013 by ami7b5

[Mac_Messer]

THIS!

 

Lure the arcade players in, but getting the bait ready after the trap is logical.

Sure. Back in 2001 I was as casual as anyone. Started playing IL2 with easiest possible settings. Progressed to the hardest settings. Same ppl are playing WT.

[Cybermat47]

Seems like trying to destroy BoS...

Suggest it on DCS:WWII forum and then let us know...

 

No mouse aim in BoS (or any sim) ever!

*** Don't make such statements*** Jason

 

But I mean seriously, I've seen joysticks selling for $200. Some people don't have that much money after paying for a computer and a game. And some of us just come across as just plain nasty.

 

EDIT: What we have to remember is that the final desicion belongs to the devolopers. But frankly, it's a bit depressing seeing the people here react so negatively towards something that could well increase the game's popularity.

 

I have a dream, where a man will not be judged by what hardware he uses, but by how many kill tallys he has, where mouse flyers and joystick flyers can live in harmony... together.

Edited September 20, 2013 by JasonWilliams

[ST_ami7b5]

You know, replace 'mouse aim' with 'Jews', and 'sim' with 'Aryan community', and this forum gets reeeeeal disturbing....

 

But I mean seriously, I've seen joysticks selling for $200. Some people don't have that much money after paying for a computer and a game. And some of us just come across as just plain nasty.

 

EDIT: What we have to remember is that the final desicion belongs to the devolopers. But frankly, it's a bit depressing seeing the people here react so negatively towards something that could well increase the game's popularity.

 

I have a dream, where a man will not be judged by what hardware he uses, but by how many kill tallys he has, where mouse flyers and joystick flyers can live in harmony... together.

 

I'll try to ignore your unbelievable first sentence - just: WOW!!!!

 

I have seen and experienced for myself how mouse-aim literally destroyed WorldThunder's Historical Battles for joystick players.

Never want to see/experience it again.

Joystick players at HUGE disadvantage to FPS mouse-aimers in a FLIGHT game.

 

BoS is not an arcade game so mouse-aim has no place here.

My opinion (ofcourse). 

[Sturm_]

I have a dream, where a man will not be judged by what hardware he uses, but by how many kill tallys he has, where mouse flyers and joystick flyers can live in harmony... together.

 

With all due respect, in the matter of "Mouse Aim" vs Joystick, hardware determines your kill tally. A Joystick player is in serious disadvantage against a mouse/kb player in War Thunder.

 

That dream is not going to come true with the "Mouse Aim" implementation War Thunder features.

 

Also, there are really cheap joystick options, much cheaper than a mouse/kb, and very effective. Hardware cost is not something to base your arguments on.

 

My opinion is: Mouse vs Mouse, Joystick vs Joystick. No discrimination, just join the arena where you will fight in even conditions. There's no better or worse, no upper/lower class, just players with different preferences.

[Revvin]

You know, replace 'mouse aim' with 'Jews', and 'sim' with 'Aryan community', and this forum gets reeeeeal disturbing....

 

But I mean seriously, I've seen joysticks selling for $200. Some people don't have that much money after paying for a computer and a game.

That has to be one of the most crass statements I've read in a forum for a long time.

 

You can spend $200 on a joystick but you can also spend $40 on an entry level model that doesn't cost as much as a AAA game. People spend hundreds on computer hardware to run these sims so a $40 joystick is not too much to ask.

[Heywooood]

this thread is lol

 

I hope Jason and 1CGS include mouse fly just to see that thread in all its idiotic glory...what a buncha stuffing

 

Il2 original had mouse fly - no one here remembers that?

no one here remembers all the folks who came into it in mouse fly and then came on forums to get opinions on the best peripherals to buy?

 

even if only a handful of folks who join because it has mouse fly stay in and convert to 'real simming' it would be worth it - regardless of nancy 'real simmers' comments lol

sure you can buy a cheap J/S for 40 bucks - but who wants to lay that out on top of the sim purchase just to find out they don't like it...especially if they dont have to

 

and if the mouse fly was a server side option, or only available for offline play,  mouse flyers couldnt mix with 'real simmers' anyway...so the fear of 'unfairness' which is what this thread is really about anyways, is a moot point -

 

online gamers - stop fearing the mousers - and let there be more customers...

and tell me why - in this thin genre - 1CGS would turn down lets say an additional 5000 customers when they didn't have to - thats a quarter of a million dollars - and 5000 is a low estimate

Edited September 20, 2013 by Heywooood

[BMA_West]

Hold your horses, guys.

It will be possible to fly by mouse and keyboard in BOS I presume, since the ROF options menu offers it default: there pitch and roll axis are available with Rshft+mouse and also the 4 arrows buttons, yaw has X/Z keys.

So this should answer the question, I guess.

 

Of course this is a far cry from what is really asked for in this topic, but completely in line with the intention of an flight sim with AFM.

Some resort to this way of flying on ROF MP - mostly because they don't have a stick, also probably no trackir (or are on a laptop with nothing hanging on it) - needless to say those are at a serious disadvantage or on a deserted server with simplified physics, auto rudder etc on.

Edited September 20, 2013 by West

[Heywooood]

exactly

[ST_ami7b5]

 

Hold your horses, guys.

It will be possible to fly by mouse and keyboard in BOS I presume, since the ROF options menu offers it default: there pitch and roll axis are available with Rshft+mouse and also the 4 arrows buttons, yaw has X/Z keys.

So this should answer the question, I guess.

 

Of course this is a far cry from what is really asked for in this topic, but completely in line with the intention of an flight sim with AFM.

Some resort to this way of flying on ROF MP - mostly because they don't have a stick, also probably no trackir (or are on a laptop with nothing hanging on it) - needless to say those are at a serious disadvantage or on a deserted server with simplified physics, auto rudder etc on.

 

 

No prob with this ofcourse.

But OP asks for mouse-aim/instructor like in WarThunder - see:

 

"it works by puttin the plane under sort of harnessed AI control and having a mouse control cursor on the screen.  You can move the cursor where-ever you want and the plane ai will try to bring the nose to the centre of it."

 

And that's totally different story.

Edited September 20, 2013 by ami7b5

[Heywooood]

mouse aim IS mouse fly - same same

[ST_ami7b5]

mouse aim IS mouse fly - same same

OMG

[FuriousMeow]

They are very different, hence why no one wants it here.

 

No one cares about KB and mouse to act as x/y axis, that's been in every flying game/sim since the 1980s. Mouse aim, aka fly by wire, aka point and fly to dot, is not it.

[Heywooood]

oh yeah - very different - sure

nuance

 

I don't have WT so just gooogled it...mouse aim / mouse fly...regardless - make it a server side option or for offline use only - still don't see a problem

 

go ahead then

[FuriousMeow]

So you have zero experience with it, no idea how it operates, and how very different it truly is? It actually has to have another level programmed in to fly the plane because the mouse doesn't do anything other than move a dot to where the plane's AI will now fly it to, where as actually using the mouse to manipulate the x/y axis like a joystick and doesn't require that additional AI programming because the x/y axis is being manipulated by the mouse itself.

 

Nuance, it is not.

 

Mouse aim:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W15sFe9EXLw

 

Flying with the mouse:

 

Edited September 20, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[ST_ami7b5]

oh yeah - very different - sure

nuance

 

I don't have WT so just gooogled it...mouse aim / mouse fly...regardless - make it a server side option or for offline use only - still don't see a problem

 

go ahead then

OMG for the second time.

Why on Earth are you talking about things you know NOTHING about?

Edited September 20, 2013 by ami7b5

[Jason_Williams]

We know a lot about how to make a mouse aim system. Trust me we do. In my opinion knowing what I know, a mouse aim system coupled to a full real flight model like we have would be a disaster for the mouse pilot. Any decent pilot in a cockpit with a TrackIR would wipe the floor with him. For one, they would need to fly in the 3rd person and unless we give them a "radar" to locate enemy planes (which we don't) it's not easy. Even using the hat to look around it's not easy and can be very disorienting. I've tried it and I suck at it. 

 

Putting people in our cockpits is a good thing. I personally don't care for mouse aim, but if it means a million paying customers we'd consider it, but I'm sure we'd make sure it didn't ruin the fun for the hardcore sim fans.

 

And please don't read anything into what I just said because mouse-aim is not currently on the table for BOS. If that changes I'd let you know.

 

Jason

[ST_ami7b5]

Thanks, Jason.

[Heywooood]

We know a lot about how to make a mouse aim system. Trust me we do. In my opinion knowing what I know, a mouse aim system coupled to a full real flight model like we have would be a disaster for the mouse pilot. Any decent pilot in a cockpit with a TrackIR would wipe the floor with him. For one, they would need to fly in the 3rd person and unless we give them a "radar" to locate enemy planes (which we don't) it's not easy. Even using the hat to look around it's not easy and can be very disorienting. I've tried it and I suck at it. 

 

Putting people in our cockpits is a good thing. I personally don't care for mouse aim, but if it means a million paying customers we'd consider it, but I'm sure we'd make sure it didn't ruin the fun for the hardcore sim fans.

 

And please don't read anything into what I just said because mouse-aim is not currently on the table for BOS. If that changes I'd let you know.

 

Jason

yes - dollars are hard to refuse...and as I was saying, if it was server side or offline only there would be no need for the histrionics and panic. regardless of what mouse aim is or isn't

OMG for the second time.

Why on Earth are you talking about things you know NOTHING about?

histrionics or hyperbole...either way thanks for playing

[ST_ami7b5]

yes - dollars are hard to refuse...and as I was saying, if it was server side or offline only there would be no need for the histrionics and panic. regardless of what mouse aim is or isn't

histrionics or hyperbole...either way thanks for playing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xuMwfUqJJM

[Heywooood]

lol - the need to make something out of nothing is strong with this one...

[Azuredragon]

God no, that's all i have to say.

[TheBlackPenguin]

Having actually played WT and taken a look at the market they're satisfying I don't think mouse-aim or anything similar is really going to attract many of them, just look how many planes and different theatres (size is irrelevant) they have to choose from, its pretty immense MMO style and this is the first thing they will compare. We even saw some compare WT to ROF, and last I saw there are no WW1 planes in WT. The ones which want a deeper, more satisfying experience will try FRB and if they find that lacking they will come to BOS/DCS and I don't see any value in adding mouse aim whether as a option or not, and as Jason states its likely to not act anything like WT's and could well be more of a hindrance than a help. We already have them buying into BOS .

 

Wouldn't it be of more help to have a good set of flying instructions, a tutorial which teaches the very basics?

Edited September 20, 2013 by TheBlackPenguin

[Creepermoss]

FuriousMeow

 makes a legitimate point. Mouseaim is much different than mouse-as-joy.

 

Mouse-as-joy simply turns your mouse into a joystick, it manipulates the control surfaces of the plane, as if your hand on the mouse was your hand on the stick. No problems with this.

 

WT's "MouseAim", however, is quite different. It literally removes your control of the plane. You point your cursor where you want the plane to go, and the game manipulates the control surfaces for you. The difference is much akin to driving a car vs pointing where you want the taxi to turn. It removes the skill requirement from a skill based experience, and that's why no-one wants to see it here.

Edited September 20, 2013 by [JG2]Creepermoss

[Wolger]

Mouse aim is disabled in the FRB mode (full real battles).

 

BTW we shouldn't forget the path they're taking in the future will not be solely on flight/aviation only, there are buttons for "Army" and "Fleet" which are currently not functioning. That's why currently FRB players are wondering what will happen to this game mode.

 

Why it appeals to so many people cos of the level of details in game.

http://imgur.com/a/8UIGD

[Crow]

oh yeah - very different - sure

nuance

 

I don't have WT so just gooogled it...mouse aim / mouse fly...regardless - make it a server side option or for offline use only - still don't see a problem

 

go ahead then

Oh Heywood, never change.

 

Also, this seemed relevant:

 

Edited September 20, 2013 by Crow

[Heywooood]

right - that mouse fly discussion really tied the forum together..man lol

[BMA_West]

Pleas quit comparing such an arcadish game even in Full Real settings with our IL2:BOS, guys.

Their LOD/Drawing distance is rediculous as is eg their bombing, even in FRB.

Compere with the Rof Handley-Page 0-400 level bombing demo from IRFC Requiem:

Druk op CTRL en klik als je de link wilt volgen">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHArCxSwhYc

Hope you excuse me being a bit off topic here, just want to make a point.

Edited September 20, 2013 by West

[Recon]

I personally don't care for mouse aim, but if it means a million paying customers we'd consider it, but I'm sure we'd make sure it didn't ruin the fun for the hardcore sim fans.

 

I mean this with respect, but you'd get a million but all the serious hardcore pilots would say 'good bye'.  Hope BoS doesn't sell out and even come close to thinking it would turn arcade

 

It's sorta like comparing Arma III with Call of Duty - one is trying to be a military simulator, the other is just an arcade game.

 

Personally, I have no problem with WarThunder, it's an entry game into flight, and when those people want to expand to something more hardcore, then they can invest their time (and money to get a joystick) and get closer to an immersive experience.

 

I have a hard enough time with the 'flying circus' garbage that ROF has that completely turned me away from the sim - I used to fly Gotha in a more hardcore server, but nowdays, I show up and everyone wants to play airquake so I went back to Cliffs of Dover (Team Fusion is awesome!).

 

Please don't sell out, and as to the OP, I understand, but you might want to realize this is not an arcade game with mouse and click, it's supposedly to be more of a 'combat flight sim' which would require a joystick.. and it doesn't cost '$200' for a joystick.

Edited September 20, 2013 by AKA_Recon

[J2_Trupobaw]

Just for the record, there was a good fly-by-mouse control system in fan remake of classic 1990s space "sim" Privateer; it had the stick (rather than plane) follow the mouse cursor. The plane gunsight marked the center of the screen and the further mouse was from central point, the further the "stick" was pushed in the same direction from neutral position.  It was really intuitive for joystick users, using the same hand movements as proper stick.

Here's a video. Notice that, like with most space "Sims", stick X axis controls yaw rather than roll. Still, we can see how the virtual stick follows the mouse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVLCc11EAqU#t=1m02s 

And I don't see a problem with people with no sticks using mouse for good *joystick simulation*; people with no pedals are using twist handles left, right and center without beting flak for being arcadish or unrealistic... Once you get the hang, you will be buying more and more complex controls anyway.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Trupobaw

[Sturm_]

As always, thanks for taking the time to respond Jason. Now we have an official view on the matter.

[RoboticPope]

 

Pleas quit comparing such an arcadish game even in Full Real settings with our IL2:BOS, guys.

Their LOD/Drawing distance is rediculous as is eg their bombing, even in FRB.

Compere with the Rof Handley-Page 0-400 level bombing demo from IRFC Requiem:

Druk op CTRL en klik als je de link wilt volgen">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHArCxSwhYc

Hope you excuse me being a bit off topic here, just want to make a point.

 

 

I think you will find that even IL2:BoS will be able to be played at difficulty levels that you would consider to be "arcade".  Does that automaticly make it an arcade game? No of course not.  The game underneither all the WT mmo stuff is capable of being played as a sim and if development was geared in that direction LOD would be improved, bombers would have cockpits and proper bombing sights developed. That is what sim players were hoping for. It is the mmo free to play (pay to win) business model that has denied them this as developers will always work to please the majority and this unfortunatly means creating flying April fools my little ponies, not fixing Mustang fm bugs. 

 

Gaijin had a good base to start on with Wings of Prey, and had an evolution to that game been made with the RoF or Il-2: BoS business model it could have been a very different story. So I believe the comparision is a fair and important one. This is the curse of the Pay/Grind to win business model in action, Millions of player's $$$ demanding the easist of gameplay and new "arcade" content.

 

Rejoice and thank your lucky stars that 1C didn't go in that direction for Il-2 after the failure of CloD.    

[FuriousMeow]

Did you think your post was missed the first time, and you deleted it to repost it?

 

The founders numbers are going to be far smaller than the release, because it's alpha and beta access. So they aren't marketing it. It's the more serious, involved and interested players that want in early because they want to test and see how it plays, and offer input.

 

50000 joymouse players would be awesome.

 

50000 mouseaim players, go read the WT forums. It's a nightmare.

[kongxinga]

*** Don't make such statements*** Jason

 

But I mean seriously, I've seen joysticks selling for $200. Some people don't have that much money after paying for a computer and a game. And some of us just come across as just plain nasty.

 

EDIT: What we have to remember is that the final desicion belongs to the devolopers. But frankly, it's a bit depressing seeing the people here react so negatively towards something that could well increase the game's popularity.

 

I have a dream, where a man will not be judged by what hardware he uses, but by how many kill tallys he has, where mouse flyers and joystick flyers can live in harmony... together.

 

 

Like Dr. King's Dream, this dream will be shattered. Generation after generation of flying rats (bats?) will grow up in broken single arcade flight sims where everything was handed to them on a platter, where everyone can be ace in a day. They grow up dependent on their mouse aim flight instructors, unable to function without his ace flying, including the inhuman ability to fly at the edge of a stall consistently. Deep down, they know they can't compare to people willing to put time and effort into simming, and this envy and resentment drives them to lash out and try to make joystickers and mouse-joy simmers 2nd class citizens in their own country  flight sim. Soon they will be asking for reparations for joystick elitism, and will threaten to riot if their ben  mouseaim crutches were taken away  . We've seen it happen in slow motion in WT.

 

I am perfectly fine with mouse joy. Flight is hard, so flight simming should have a degree of difficulty. I am afraid of resources being wasted on arcade goodies, ponies or perfecting mouse aim, and don't think the instant gratification crowd is the way to go. If there is a way to milk them and use that for say perfecting FM, I say go for it, but don't want another promising flight sim to go down the dark side. I was quite offended by the ponies, since they moved and had animated manes, so it costed big 3d modelling and animation bucks that could have been used to say fix lod, but arcade mouseaimers lapped it up.

Edited September 20, 2013 by kongxinga

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Like Dr. King's Dream, this dream will be shattered. Generation after generation of flying rats (bats?) will grow up in broken single arcade flight sims where everything was handed to them on a platter, where everyone can be ace in a day. They grow up dependent on their mouse aim flight instructors, unable to function without his ace flying, including the inhuman ability to fly at the edge of a stall consistently. Deep down, they know they can't compare to people willing to put time and effort into simming, and this envy and resentment drives them to lash out and try to make joystickers and mouse-joy simmers 2nd class citizens in their own country flight sim. Soon they will be asking for reparations for joystick elitism, and will threaten to riot if their ben mouseaim crutches were taken away . We've seen it happen in slow motion in WT.

 

 

 

I am perfectly fine with mouse joy. Flight is hard, so flight simming should have a degree of difficulty. I am afraid of resources being wasted on arcade goodies, ponies or perfecting mouse aim, and don't think the instant gratification crowd is the way to go. If there is a way to milk them and use that for say perfecting FM, I say go for it, but don't want another promising flight sim to go down the dark side. I was quite offended by the ponies, since they moved and had animated manes, so it costed big 3d modelling and animation bucks that could have been used to say fix lod, but arcade mouseaimers lapped it up.

Dude I could not have said it better. It is already happening in the WT forums. I plussed you. And I'd add 1000 more. On a side note . I like how non founders are telling us how much better it would be with more players. Interesting.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Hooves

[Nanoton]

If you are using mouse-aim in WT, you are instructing a computer to control your plane surfaces. You can't do a real stall, you can aim like laser at 50 KM/H you can't go into spins. The point is that with mouse aim you ain't flying the plane the computer does.

 

Never bring mouse aim to a simulator, if you can buy a game for 50$ and a computer for alot more, i'm sure you can afford a joystick for 30$. If you are serious about flight simulators you will buy it, and it will give you alot of fun.

 

Best Regards // Nanoton former War Thunder player waiting for IL2:BoS.

[RoboticPope]

Dude I could not have said it better. It is already happening in the WT forums. I plussed you. And I'd add 1000 more. On a side note . I like how non founders are telling us how much better it would be with more players. Interesting.

 

Just wait until the masses of PS4 casual players arrive to play WT using their gamepad joysticks to fly the plane, and they find they are at a disadvantage over pc players using their mouse instructor. I'm affraid it's really going to hit the fan.

[Bearcat]

Mouse aim as implemented in WT and mouse/keyboard fly as implemented in IL2 are two very different things. Give me my hotas and TIR and I will mop the floor with any pilot using a keyboard and mouse on a bad day. Mouse aim has no place in a serious sim.

[FuriousMeow]

Really should have quoted the post I was responding to just above. Mac_Messer decided to delete his post again (it was identical to his previous post). My comments/post  were not directed towards RoboticPope.

Edited September 21, 2013 by FuriousMeow