Fly by wire mouse/KB controls like Warthunder?

[TheBlackPenguin]

Would a chart comparing FM differences between WT and BOS be helpful? Obviously, its probably too early to do that with BOS as we're still waiting for all the details, but closer to release it should help imho. Oh and not just FM, but the size of the theatre. the depth of the sim etc.

[ST_ami7b5]

They say otherwise. So confront them.

"They" don't interest me anymore. WT is headinh to pure arcade even with its 200 FRB players.

How about DCS?

Edited September 18, 2013 by ami7b5

[=69.GIAP=RADKO]

It is not that simple. You see what I was saying is that ,deliberately or not from WT producer`s POV, the fans are promoting the game as a full blown sim and as such step into a field that is supposed to be reserved for titles like IL2 : BoS and DCS. This way, they are making themselves a competition for those titles even yet it is apples and oranges. WT or its fans for that matter, exploit the main message what is : you are playing a combat flight simulator. This message is fake but is obvious only to some of WT players. Many of them think they`re flying THE sim that is out there.

So for the same reason WT sees itself as competition for BoS, BoS should step into the casual genre to gather some of the more ambitious fans along with those people who think they`re flying the real thing.

Needless to say, with release of BoS the comparing with WT will start rightaway. As that, the WT will be presented as the better game because of its MMO-like qualities, BoS promoters need to accept the confrontation and present it as THE sim that WT has been announced as. This way (imo ofcourse), some of WT users will be lured to BoS not only because of true sim experience but also for a better online gaming experience overall. Having said that, I don`t think BoS has any choice but to accept the challenge.

 

A promoting campaign led with confidence of the qualities mentioned above could give BoS many newcomers years sooner than it was with the original IL2.

 

If the fans are promoting War Thunder as a full blown sim then so be it. I have no doubt that once IL2:BOS is released on youtube these people will be stood to be corrected through the use of social media. In my mind I have no doubt that most if not all War Thunder players at some point will come in contact with this information one way or another. Hell it might actually make them reconsider the fact they're playing an arcade game which isn't half as challenging as BOS resulting in some converting. Truth is a much more powerful thing than stooping down to War Thunders level of false advertising a "combat sim".

 

I understand what you are saying in regards to WT deliberately advertising their product as a sim to draw in virtual pilots to their game but they're no competition in such a niche market. Yes they have the majority of casual gamers who probably never owned a joystick in their lives but BOS will very much rule the roost for people who are looking for a real virtual pilot experience. WT has no chance in stealing any virtual pilots from BOS.

 

It's very unfair to suggest that WT would be presented as the better game when they're two completely different genres. One is an arcade game (that does a very poor job in historical battles) and the other is a combat simulator. This will be much more clear just through the simple use of word of mouth.

 

What you must understand that even the developers themselves are fully fledged simmers and creating a casual scene would contradict what they're trying to do. Which is to breathe life back into the virtual market.

 

My biggest fear is if a mouse was implemented into the game for casual gamers then those casual gamers might start expecting an improved War Thunder. Creating a segregated community. Two communities expecting very different things from the developers.  

Edited September 18, 2013 by =69.GIAP=RADKO

[Tektolnes]

I'm sure 777 would like a slice of that demographic. And more dollars means more stuff being developed in general. So long as they're locked out of the servers I play on I couldn't care less. Give them a separate forum though for their txt speak histrionics about balance, tiers and unlocks. The main issue would be around the core vision of the game and how to handle two disparate groups wants. I doubt 777 have a big enough team to keep both groups happy.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

If you have played warthunder and understand what mouse aim is you would be damned before having it come near BoS.

 

 

That being said. The biggest cluster about WT mouse aim lies with the "instructor" this is what saves MA'rs from actually experiencing flight n and what turns it into a no penalties arcade game.

 

If Mouse aim were ever introduced to the world of IL2. It would have to be in the form of a. Irtual joystick. That is to say that the mouse movement only moves the in game stickin the same way a joystick does. That way there is no advantage, no added bonus to using mouse over joystick.

 

 

What has happened now is the 99% effect in the WT forums and community. The mouse aimers now refer to JS owners as "joystick trolls" and "elitests". Simply because they were tired of mouse aimers getting these breaks to control their plane. In effect tbey made it a DISADVANTAGE to have a stick in A flight game. Unbelievable.

 

Over all I say absolutley not! But if it made it in it must be the same level of difficulty. No better no worse.

[76SQN-J0NJ0N]

 

As I understand it, if I’m not mistaken, the system could be actually simple. With the mouse you give orders to an already existing AI pilot, who has no problem in manipulating commands with all the needed finesse, and more.

 

 

Actually, we have no idea at how much resource it’ll need.

 

As others (Yaklovem Mac_Messer…) have said, more options would allow more players to have fun, and we are talking of a game, not a religion. How many options? That’s entirely in the hands of the devs. They know exactly what time and money is needed for each new option, and have all the facts to make an informed and wise decision.

 

Not a religion? 

 

(shakes head)

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

If your keeping up with ROF and the release on Steam, community forums; you should see all the WOT guys that have come over and are asking how to get their mouse and game pads working with ROF.

 

It's a gas..(old term from the 60's when people used laughing gas to get high.)

[Krig]

Hi, I'm one of the Frb wt players.

Before wt I i had never ever tested a flight sim(red baron3d don't count) but it was accessible with just a mouse and free to the boot.

But I had a joystick and track it for arma so I thought, why not?

After 5 hours of tinkering I tested my first flight in full real. Claustrophobic as hell and it ended in flames from a enemy I never even saw.

But I had a blast so after a few days I orders saitek pedals and got the "eye"from my wife now I have it all, I am even building a floormounted stick atm.

 

So without mouseaim I wouldn't know what il2 was and I would certainly not have a golden bar next to my name.

 

Cheers.

[FuriousMeow]

That's pretty much what WT does. It either appeals to people to play it forever because they like that level, or it gets individuals interested to jump to the next level. The WT control system has a place though, and that's in WT. It's kind of like floaties when learning to swim, or training wheels when learning to bike, or the trash can when learning to ice skate. It gets you interested in it, and it's fun, and it takes away the difficulty and worry. But eventually there's the graduation to the full fledged version, and that's when the aids go away and the real fun begins.

Edited September 19, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[Wolger]

"They" don't interest me anymore. WT is headinh to pure arcade even with its 200 FRB players.

How about DCS?

 

How can you call that pure arcade when it has no enemy icons, friendly icons only appear under several hundreds metres, cockpit only view and WT has that sim characteristic you can save replays after each game. Need to rely on your eyes to spot black pixels from far. Curious to know why you call it pure arcade? What defines a flight sim game as a pure sim?

 

In DCS: P-51 you need to 100% rely on the cockpit dials and indicators and it has no HUD indicators like WT FRB.

 

 

Hi, I'm one of the Frb wt players.

Before wt I i had never ever tested a flight sim(red baron3d don't count) but it was accessible with just a mouse and free to the boot.

But I had a joystick and track it for arma so I thought, why not?

After 5 hours of tinkering I tested my first flight in full real. Claustrophobic as hell and it ended in flames from a enemy I never even saw.

But I had a blast so after a few days I orders saitek pedals and got the "eye"from my wife now I have it all, I am even building a floormounted stick atm.

 

So without mouseaim I wouldn't know what il2 was and I would certainly not have a golden bar next to my name.

 

Cheers.

 

True. Heard a lot about the Sturmovik series. Missed the ride by missing out 1946 altogether. You can say WT brought me here too.

 

I'd never played many flight sims so I can be considered having nil exprience. Had so much fun then bought my HOTAS and TrackIR just for WT FRB. I'll have own pilot pit with the rudder pedals when I have my own room at my new house. It's exciting to know how BoS spotting mechanic works.

And yea few of my guid mates are considering hoppin into War Thunder FRB from Arcade after getting a flightstick.

[Sokol1]

 

Bringing in arcade controls to attract the arcade style players is not the way imho, I doubt many will switch to joysticks anyway.

 

Agree, and will complain that the graphics are inferior, that does not have  "Holywwod" fire, "confetti" damage, XP hits... 

 

Sokol1

[Bearcat]

It is not that simple. You see what I was saying is that ,deliberately or not from WT producer`s POV, the fans are promoting the game as a full blown sim and as such step into a field that is supposed to be reserved for titles like IL2 : BoS and DCS. This way, they are making themselves a competition for those titles even yet it is apples and oranges. WT or its fans for that matter, exploit the main message what is : you are playing a combat flight simulator. This message is fake but is obvious only to some of WT players. Many of them think they`re flying THE sim that is out there.

So for the same reason WT sees itself as competition for BoS, BoS should step into the casual genre to gather some of the more ambitious fans along with those people who think they`re flying the real thing.

Needless to say, with release of BoS the comparing with WT will start rightaway. As that, the WT will be presented as the better game because of its MMO-like qualities, BoS promoters need to accept the confrontation and present it as THE sim that WT has been announced as. This way (imo ofcourse), some of WT users will be lured to BoS not only because of true sim experience but also for a better online gaming experience overall. Having said that, I don`t think BoS has any choice but to accept the challenge.

 

A promoting campaign led with confidence of the qualities mentioned above could give BoS many newcomers years sooner than it was with the original IL2.

 

I get your point .. but BoS should not compromise in that respect. It needs to remain a flight sim. Look at the Nugget's Guide.. there is a link there telling people how to fly IL2 with a keyboard & mouse.. but why.... ? That's like trying to learn to play guitar without a guitar.. You can do it.. but errr uhhhh

 

They say otherwise. So confront them.

 

Why? I don't care what they say.. If a few thousand people told you McNuggets was chicken.. would you confront them or just go to KFC..

 

If your keeping up with ROF and the release on Steam, community forums; you should see all the WOT guys that have come over and are asking how to get their mouse and game pads working with ROF.

 

It's a gas..(old term from the 60's when people used laughing gas to get high.)

 

Like that Jack Flash guy ..

[=Elite=BlitzPuppet]

I love my girlfriend, I just asked her what she thought of using a mouse and keyboard to play my flying games.  Her response: "that's silly, it wouldn't be a simulator then!". 

 

I use my head, both feet, and both hands when I fly...wouldn't have it any other way.  Playing with Zoom and Boomers  who refuse to fight is bad enough, playing with people who have no appreciation for how the simulation should be played (in my opinion at least).

[AbortedMan]

Any requests for mouse-aim should be followed by an immediate ban from the forums, IMO. 

 

Mouse-aim is a cancer...a poison to any sim game/community.

 

 

I love my girlfriend, I just asked her what she thought of using a mouse and keyboard to play my flying games.  Her response: "that's silly, it wouldn't be a simulator then!". 

 

I use my head, both feet, and both hands when I fly...wouldn't have it any other way.  Playing with Zoom and Boomers  who refuse to fight is bad enough, playing with people who have no appreciation for how the simulation should be played (in my opinion at least).

 

 

Heh, I asked my girlfriend the same thing (she knows almost nothing about video games/simulators and their inputs), I described the scenarios brought on by mouse-aim (specifically in War Thunder) and from her extremely neutral, 3rd party, non-video game playing stance, even she said "mouse-aim sounds like cheating".

Edited September 19, 2013 by AbortedMan

[=Elite=BlitzPuppet]

I love my girlfriend, I just asked her what she thought of using a mouse and keyboard to play my flying games.  Her response: "that's silly, it wouldn't be a simulator then!". 

 

I use my head, both feet, and both hands when I fly...wouldn't have it any other way.  Playing with Zoom and Boomers  who refuse to fight is bad enough, playing with people who have no appreciation for how the simulation should be played (in my opinion at least).

 

I butchered this post at the end as I was getting distracted here at work.  Meant to say that playing with BnZr's is really bad, but playing with people who have no appreciation/interest in how a simulation should be played is much much worse.

 

Let the arcade gamers stay in arcade games just as us simmers need to say in sim games.  777 needs to focus on making this the next best thing compared to what 1946 is/was.  Trying to accomplish too many different game modes = "A jack of all trades is a master of none".

 

 

 

Heh, I asked my girlfriend the same thing (she knows almost nothing about video games/simulators and their inputs), I described the scenarios brought on by mouse-aim (specifically in War Thunder) and from her extremely neutral, 3rd party, non-video game playing stance, even she said "mouse-aim sounds like cheating".

 

Sounds a lot like my girlfriend, she'd rather read a book/watch her shows than watch me in my Sims...She does strangely likes to watch me play Red Orchestra 2 though

Edited September 19, 2013 by =Elite=BlitzPuppet

[LLv44_Mprhead]

I don't want mouse aim to BOS, but then again I also don't understand the need to build walls between "serious simmers" and arcade players. If BOS can attract large clientele (while still being a serious sim) everyone will benefit.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

My first flight sim I bought I said to myself "Well if its a flight game you might as well buy a stick to go with it." I never even thought I could fly with a mouse or a keyboard! No need for it in BOS IMO.

[kongxinga]

I came here to avoid the mouseaim, especially the mouseaimers who threaten to leave if the playing field was leveled. MA is bad for obvious reasons and has no place in a sim.

 

WT seems backtracking fast from the days it could call itself a sim. IN WT, if you said there should be X, because we expect X in sims, a horde of mousers will jump on to deny it was a sim, and thus they need their mouse aim privileges. Oh and they will call you joystick elitist too lol.

[Heywooood]

I would be for having the option - for people who do not own flight gear peripherals and / or are new to flight simming - just to see if they like the idea of combat flight simulator, and the look of BoS....

what does it hurt if it is an option the veterans can switch off?...

 

many more people will try something if they do not have to buy a bunch of extra stuff JUST to try it out - win win for a developer

 

ofcourse - the additional time and trouble to make it work is a consideration...but if I were trying to get NEW market share? I would have this mouse fly capability for certain..as an OPTION

 

I'm certain everyone here recognizes the need for new pilots...and customers

Edited September 19, 2013 by Heywooood

[DoWSiq6Six]

Hey, War Thunder is a good thing. You may hate to admit it and so do I, but it is. It's a game which opened up the door to WWII Aviation to a large number of people. It also separates the men from the boys... ok toddlers..

 

As somebody who had No interest in Prop games, WarThunder looked amazing so I thought I'd give it a try. I was however, curious about modern flight; DCS A-10C, but it sounded overly complicated (I read people having to spend weeks learning start up before first take off... That was such an over exaggeration) so I never bothered to try it.

 

One game.. ONE GAME in WT with mouse-aim & I was like "fuck this. I want to control the plane. I'm going back to Black Ops 2, screw this trash". Then later I saw some more Youtube videos.. Decided I better find a profile already setup for my dusty & almost forgotten x52 Pro and try flying that way. Well long story short, and thanks to terribad SST software, I now own HOTAS Warthog, combat pedals & TIR5. The A-10C is Way easier to fly than I had previously thought. I can't beat the 190 in my P-51 instant-action dogfight to save my life, but I enjoy flying the DCS Mustang anyhow. I've backed WII Europe & got my BoS Gold Badge.

 

I mostly spend my time flying WarThunder FRB - it may not be to DCS standards, but it isn't own to the Arcade-level either. I'd say its a dumbed down Sim, which is good. It's easy enough (auto engine management) to be an open door to newbies like me but with enough elements to entice us to want to experience more.

 

Now with all that said - mouse AIM -NO!! Mouse-Joy, Sure, why not? It keeps the game available to people who have no hardware, but doesn't give them the advantage of instant becoming a perfect pilot who never over reacts & counters stalls before they occur.

[Crow]

I don't mind WT at all. I play it from time to time when I just want some mindless, arcade fun. I just don't agree with anyone who says that WT is a replacement for a true combat flight sim or that IL-2: BoS should try to be like WT. That's where I draw the line.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Hey, War Thunder is a good thing. You may hate to admit it and so do I, but it is. It's a game which opened up the door to WWII Aviation to a large number of people. It also separates the men from the boys... ok toddlers..

 

As somebody who had No interest in Prop games, WarThunder looked amazing so I thought I'd give it a try. I was however, curious about modern flight; DCS A-10C, but it sounded overly complicated (I read people having to spend weeks learning start up before first take off... That was such an over exaggeration) so I never bothered to try it.

 

One game.. ONE GAME in WT with mouse-aim & I was like "fuck this. I want to control the plane. I'm going back to Black Ops 2, screw this trash". Then later I saw some more Youtube videos.. Decided I better find a profile already setup for my dusty & almost forgotten x52 Pro and try flying that way. Well long story short, and thanks to terribad SST software, I now own HOTAS Warthog, combat pedals & TIR5. The A-10C is Way easier to fly than I had previously thought. I can't beat the 190 in my P-51 instant-action dogfight to save my life, but I enjoy flying the DCS Mustang anyhow. I've backed WII Europe & got my BoS Gold Badge.

 

I mostly spend my time flying WarThunder FRB - it may not be to DCS standards, but it isn't own to the Arcade-level either. I'd say its a dumbed down Sim, which is good. It's easy enough (auto engine management) to be an open door to newbies like me but with enough elements to entice us to want to experience more.

 

Now with all that said - mouse AIM -NO!! Mouse-Joy, Sure, why not? It keeps the game available to people who have no hardware, but doesn't give them the advantage of instant becoming a perfect pilot who never over reacts & counters stalls before they occur.

Id agree that WT has a place in the hierarchy of Flight games, but in the "realism" dept. It falls heavily short.  Mouse aim, gets people in the genre, perpetual Mouse aimers drag down the genre as a whole.  Just look at the vitriol aimed (with a mouse) at Joystick owners in the WT forums, its ridiculous.  Once you make it "easier" then people ask it to be harder, the rats come out and vilify the ones that cried fowl.

 

Id just rather IL2 stay for us "elitest" joystick owners   

[Heywooood]

I dont see where having the option in BoS is trying to be like WT...?

 

no one is forcing a 'real' simmer to use it if it is an option

 

if 'real' simmers are afraid of people flying 'unfairly' online in a mouse fly setting (thus 'cheating') - then make it a server side setting to allow or deny...or make it an option for offline play only

 

if it entices new players to come over - and - its an option, thereby not affecting 'real' simmers - then what is the problem? -

Would a chart comparing FM differences between WT and BOS be helpful? Obviously, its probably too early to do that with BOS as we're still waiting for all the details, but closer to release it should help imho. Oh and not just FM, but the size of the theatre. the depth of the sim etc.

yesssss more CHARTZZZZZ

[TheBlackPenguin]

I dont see where having the option in BoS is trying to be like WT...?

 

no one is forcing a 'real' simmer to use it if it is an option

 

if 'real' simmers are afraid of people flying 'unfairly' online in a mouse fly setting (thus 'cheating') - then make it a server side setting to allow or deny...or make it an option for offline play only

 

if it entices new players to come over - and - its an option, thereby not affecting 'real' simmers - then what is the problem? -

yesssss more CHARTZZZZZ

 

Just three concerns over this option:

 

1. Resources, no-one knows how much time and money it would take to incorporate such an option, but whatever it is will take development time away from elsewhere.

 

2. If added to the sim, whose to say everyone will move on up to a joystick? There is a chance it could become very popular and therefore place pressure on the team to acknowledge their concerns on improvements, again taking away resources from the simulation part.

 

3. Perception: Creating mouse-aim ala WT will give the impression that BOS is closer to arcade than a sim.

 

No-one is saying WT is a bad game and has certainly bought more people into the genre, its actually a lot of fun when using mouse aim and treating it like an arcade game rather than a sim if that makes sense .

 

And yes charts and more charts

[trumps]

If someone from the likes of that WT game is interested in a real combat sim then they should realize that any sort of mouse/stick emmulation is not an option, i am sort of suprised

the question has even been raised, thought the gamers were happy with their WT experience and too busy grinding their way into a mig-15 to shoot down those pesky Gladiators LOL!

[Heywooood]

ofcourse - the additional time and trouble to make it work is a consideration...but if I were trying to get NEW market share? I would have this mouse fly capability for certain..as an OPTION

 

 

why I said this initially...

but even if some people bought it and stayed with the mouse flt option - they wouldnt be US...they would be new people - thus ultimately MORE people would own the sim - why I say its a win win

since the more $$ the developer earns - hopefully - the more they can spend on updating and enhancing the software for...US

[Creepermoss]

The mouse is what you use to navigate to the icon to launch the sim you're flying, and that should be the end of it.

 

Realism based sims have stayed alive all these years because of the full simulation guys, let's keep the game "by pilots, for pilots". The mouseguys can go point&click in WoWP and WT, and leave the fun stuff for us. When they get tired of it (like many of us did), they can join in on the awesome.

[Bearcat]

I would be for having the option - for people who do not own flight gear peripherals and / or are new to flight simming - just to see if they like the idea of combat flight simulator, and the look of BoS....

what does it hurt if it is an option the veterans can switch off?...

 

many more people will try something if they do not have to buy a bunch of extra stuff JUST to try it out - win win for a developer

 

ofcourse - the additional time and trouble to make it work is a consideration...but if I were trying to get NEW market share? I would have this mouse fly capability for certain..as an OPTION

 

I'm certain everyone here recognizes the need for new pilots...and customers

 

 

Not me.... suck it up and get a stick... if you can't afford one then you need to be doing something else with your time other than gaming anyway. If you are too cheap to drop $40 for one in the age of ebay and Craig's List then go do something else because the other peripherals will only make you cry. New customers..? Absolutely.. but this is a flight sim.. not a shooter.. not a "driving game" where you go speed up slow down turn left or right, reverse.. stop .. maybe shift gears.. maybe a little nitrous.. In this world you need up down left right guns cannon rockets bombs, trim.. at least two ways, pitch, radiator mixture head on a swivel, flaps, gear, engine start/stop... and that's just for starters.. If you want to come in here.. come ready to at least do the basics.. and the basics means a joystick as a minimum. If you want to bring them in buy them WT.

[FuriousMeow]

why I said this initially...

but even if some people bought it and stayed with the mouse flt option - they wouldnt be US...they would be new people - thus ultimately MORE people would own the sim - why I say its a win win

since the more $$ the developer earns - hopefully - the more they can spend on updating and enhancing the software for...US

 

Not exactly. While they may stick around and play with mouse aim, after development time from the more detailed/sim side is taken away to create it, now there are going to be wants for less sim/realism that will again take away from the realism side to appeal to the casual/gamey side.

 

It might bring in more money, but it brings in more requests - things to make it easier or to add incentives to the less sim side - which now divide resources.

 

So it's a loss for more sim features, because now demands for features are split between the less sim and more sim sides.

Edited September 20, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[=LD=Scronce]

The mouse is what you use to navigate to the icon to launch the sim you're flying, and that should be the end of it.

 

Realism based sims have stayed alive all these years because of the full simulation guys, let's keep the game "by pilots, for pilots". The mouseguys can go point&click in WoWP and WT, and leave the fun stuff for us. When they get tired of it (like many of us did), they can join in on the awesome.

 

+1.  o7 will see you in the skies creeper moss ;)

[Heywooood]

I dont see where it matters to us if:

A) they buy the sim but don't ever change from mouse fly (more money for 777)

B) they buy in and then want stuff changed to appease them (too bad)

C) best case - they buy in and then start asking questions like - whats the best J/S?, how do I fly in the cockpit? how do I navigate? work the CEM? build missions?

...become like us....

this is the only thing that should matter to us - that a percentage of these noobs get the itch to get more out of this sim... set ego aside, whats the point of saying "dont make MY sim a game" " they can go pound sand - BoS is for real errrm sim pilots" etc...

 

lighten up people - we all want more new people to join, and its going to take whatever it takes to get them involved 

if a thing isnt growing, its dying

[ACG_Kraut]

Oh dear god no! Mouse-aim is the most game-breaking "feature" of WT.

Mouse-aim in flight sims is the equivalent of an aimbot in a shooter IMHO.

[FuriousMeow]

I'm just saying, there's already a title that caters to that type of play. If this title starts catering, then the development time WILL be split. The team will have enough with the "This rivet is 2mm off from the wing fairing to be accurate", "this plane was 2 days late for this battle/was 200 miles away from it - why is it modelled", "I HAVE CHARTZEZZ!", and etc crowds - adding more to that which will be the polar opposite is going to be quite the clusterfudge.

 

If people want to graduate from WT after getting interested, cool! But wasting development time that takes away from the appeal we're here for, then more will leave and this will go the sim-lite or less direction.

if a thing isnt growing, its dying

 

Is that a quote like "if you ain't first, you're last!"?

Edited September 20, 2013 by FuriousMeow

[Crow]

if a thing isnt growing, its dying

Strictly speaking, I think there are some microbiologists that might have an objection to that statement.

[RoboticPope]

How can you call that pure arcade when it has no enemy icons, friendly icons only appear under several hundreds metres, cockpit only view and WT has that sim characteristic you can save replays after each game. Need to rely on your eyes to spot black pixels from far. Curious to know why you call it pure arcade? What defines a flight sim game as a pure sim?

 

In DCS: P-51 you need to 100% rely on the cockpit dials and indicators and it has no HUD indicators like WT FRB.

 

.

.

 

I agree. The fact is WarThunder game engine could be played as a combat sim at the same sim level as IL-2 forgoten battles full switch(although with smaller maps). At it's heart it is a sim, the original fms where actualy from the first IL-2. The problem is that mmo free to play part. This is what made mouse-aim a requirement, so huge numbers of new players could quickly pick up and enjoy the game on the lowest difficulty level and want to start spending money. 

 

With the grinding nature of free to play, players are inclined to remain at an easy low arcade game level because they can get many kills and xp there as they work to get their next plane unlock. There is little incentive for the average player to move up to a more simulator difficulty where they might struggle at first and lose many credits repairing crashed planes.   This has lead to a gigantic difference in the amount of people playing a simulator and those playing an arcade game. I do not think the WT developers were quite expecting this, they maybe underestimated the amount of players coming from World of Tanks, but the result is that the arcade game modes are getting more development time over simulator things like flight models and engine management bugs. New planes are created with next to no flight model because they work fine in an arcade setting with mouse aim and people will spend money to get it. That is where the money is and the developers are working as a buisiness. This is why WT is quickly becoming an arcade shooter more than a simulator and simulator players in WT have moved here.  

 

Now IL-2:BoS will not have the grind issues. It will not have the big difference in the number of people playing with full realism over those playing with flying "arcade" aids. Simulator features are what will be bringing in the money, not arcade ones, so that is where development is focused. If 777 wanted to make a mouse-aim system then I don't think it would have the same huge community separating effect that it had on WT and by itself wouldn't suddenly somehow make IL-2:BoS less of a simulator. But it would take a long time to develop correctly (so it's properly balanced with joystick user online) and isn't something that this game needs to make money, it would be a waste of time. That is why it will not happen.      

[hiro]

Go for it. Go mouse and keyboard, Il-2 had it, so should the sequel. 

 

I always stand for the sequel doing everything the old one did, and new stuff

 

so also add future devices . . .

 

 

like motion sensing, seems a like a big thing 

 

 

 

It won't be as accurate as a stick or intuitive. 

 

Besides when people really get into the game, they'll get the right control devices for it. 

 

 

We're here to open people up, and get them to try.

 

Then their flying bug will bite and they'll scratch the surface. They'll break away from the system or matrix that tells them whats popular is best for them, that rehashed voice modulated with early 2000's EDM (electronic dance music) and beats taken from 1980's TR808  is music yet their souls will stir when they hear something real . . . (like muddy waters) 

 

and start to realize to do things they really want. And maybe flying around a bit to experience the days right before jet power might be something on the list. 

 

 

Getting someone to swim in 3 foot, clear blue, sandy bottom, warm ocean water at mid day is much more appealing than Alaskan gulf with 20 foot swells and waves, 300 meter depth,  at twilight, and howling winds with a touch of hail. 

 

 

 

And war thunder is a different game. It's like saying 1943 or afterburner is a sim (like IL-2 1946), which it isn't.

 

Sims are games that as much as possible simulate a reality of combat of some sorts. 

 

Video games are entertainment that uses the subject matter of combat in  the context of a game. 

 

 

Or to put it simply:  

 

video Games, BF3, COD,  = flying a kite

 

video games such as a WOW or WOT, Star Craft = flying a model airplane / helo

 

Sims IL-2 1946, Silent Hunter 3 = flying a real airplane / helo

Edited September 20, 2013 by hiro

[Wolger]

I agree. The fact is WarThunder game engine could be played as a combat sim at the same sim level as IL-2 forgoten battles full switch(although with smaller maps). At it's heart it is a sim, the original fms where actualy from the first IL-2. The problem is that mmo free to play part. This is what made mouse-aim a requirement, so huge numbers of new players could quickly pick up and enjoy the game on the lowest difficulty level and want to start spending money. 

 

With the grinding nature of free to play, players are inclined to remain at an easy low arcade game level because they can get many kills and xp there as they work to get their next plane unlock. There is little incentive for the average player to move up to a more simulator difficulty where they might struggle at first and lose many credits repairing crashed planes.   This has lead to a gigantic difference in the amount of people playing a simulator and those playing an arcade game. I do not think the WT developers were quite expecting this, they maybe underestimated the amount of players coming from World of Tanks, but the result is that the arcade game modes are getting more development time over simulator things like flight models and engine management bugs. New planes are created with next to no flight model because they work fine in an arcade setting with mouse aim and people will spend money to get it. That is where the money is and the developers are working as a buisiness. This is why WT is quickly becoming an arcade shooter more than a simulator and simulator players in WT have moved here.  

 

Now IL-2:BoS will not have the grind issues. It will not have the big difference in the number of people playing with full realism over those playing with flying "arcade" aids. Simulator features are what will be bringing in the money, not arcade ones, so that is where development is focused. If 777 wanted to make a mouse-aim system then I don't think it would have the same huge community separating effect that it had on WT and by itself wouldn't suddenly somehow make IL-2:BoS less of a simulator. But it would take a long time to develop correctly (so it's properly balanced with joystick user online) and isn't something that this game needs to make money, it would be a waste of time. That is why it will not happen.      

 

I think you'd explained it well why people are saying WT is heading towards the Arcade path.

I read somewhere Gaijin was involved in the game console port for the IL-2 . Actually first tried out WT in Feb but didn't like it and gave it a pass as I felt it's just too arcadish. Then started out again EXACTLY a month ago, played in Arcade mode with friends but then finally end up cloaking more hours in FRB mode, decided on impulse to get the TrackIR5 which by no mean was cheap to get better immersive experience. Using joystick even in Arcade mode, even getting trashed badly. WT has a good UI design, something that's much better than other online MMOs that I'd tried. My HOTAS stick was actually meant for another unreleased space sim game. It's true what you've said, looks like I'm yearning for more. I like sim games, prefer Ops Flashpoint/ARMA series compare to other FPS shooters, played tank simulators and pseudo flight simulators in the late 90's. We gotta admit, the mass will not go on pure simulator path, out of 10 of my friends only 2 will response positively to pure flight simulators like DCS or Sturmoviks. They are just too time consuming.

[Jg26Hellblazer]

I don't think that such a feature will ever be implemented in here. Needless to say, MA has been the bane of my WT experience from the beginning and i'm not even thinking i'll meet it in here.

 

But i have to give credit to Wolger and Pope, WT has introduced lots of players into the simulator universe, me included, that no other game could've done. I on the other hand approached WT in its early days in a classic manner: bought a JS especially for the game, later to be outraged and completely helpless in the face of mouse-aim swarmers that invaded HB mode turning it into literally Arcade+. In my opinion allowing mouse-aim into HB was the biggest mistake Gaijin ever did, erasing all my impressions of WT as an eventual simulator.

 

FRB on the other hand is attractive, somewhat satisfying, (no mouse-aim) and with a continous improvement of FMs it might provide a relaxed simulator environment that could indeed pose a challenge for the more accurate and time consuming gameplay of BoS. People are lazy, even elitists. And the huge number of planes available is always a plus. In fact, in my case, the planes available for the VVS in BoS is a major letdown, and as a romanian only an eventual presence of IAR 80/81 might make me buy the game. Nevertheless i'm still interested and i'm keeping my eyes on this one for sure.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Jg26Hellblazer

[Phant0m]

To put it bluntly, this game is not for them. Unless you rather like sims and/or have the patience to wait, only having 10 planes will be a big turn off. One of the reasons I pre-ordered was because I am sure that this game will provide a very rich and immersed experience - achieved through accurate FM's, robust physics, high sound quality and good graphics, for me, this is the major net with which this game casts to draw in players.

 

These FBW mouse users don't care overly much about the first two items in that list - they will not be satisfied with how long it takes to produce more aircraft or theatres. I can put a sign outside my house which says 'Nude Photoshoot - models welcome!' that doesn't mean I will get any takers. When you consider that it will take time to develop, it will be impossible to balance, rifts between mouse users and joystick users have ruined the community of WT and it is incongruous with the ideals of simulation I think we shouldn't paint spots on our elephant in the hope that it can shag the long legged giraffes behind the bushes.

 

If they whet their appetite with FBW mouse use in WT and want the full experience they can come here - and will be welcomed with open arms.

[=LD=Scronce]

, it will be impossible to balance

 

Good... good.