Hummmm, no manual I have a real issue with this

[sbishop1488]

Hi,

 

Why has a manual not been released with the game?  This is meant to be a complex simulation of flight and therefore should have a proper, clear and easy to read manual for people who are looking into their first combat flight simulator.

 

It is not acceptable to say it's related to lack of resources, the development of the manual for the software could/should of grown out of the development / test / quality control.

 

People who have paid a princely sum of £39.99 expect, at least, a PDF manual included on disk or the availability of the latest version for download.

 

Its ok for people who say "look through the forums, ask questions etc but when buying a professional product you don't expect to have to search for scraps of information to figure out how it all works.

 

It seems a lot of queries on this forum and on others are related to "where's the manual" type questions and I wondered if the developers had a timeline for when they planned to release one?

 

It doesn't have to be in a prefect state, other updated versions could follow, but at least something which details the keyboard layout and control of the planes would be very helpful to a lot of people (and yes I have already seen people on this forum doing this, but its not the job of the user to have to create this).

 

I work in software development (although a very different area to flight simulation) and I'd be shot if there wasn't some form of instruction / training / guide etc with the software I produce, I also understand the pressure developers are under to deliver but this doesn't excuse the lack of documentation.

 

[Dakpilot]

While I fully agree on everything you say, it has been said that they are waiting for the final modules (D/server/skinning/ME) to be released and a number of new features are expected with upcoming patches, hopefully after that the manual will be forthcoming, as it will indeed solve a lot of issues with newcomers to the game, also making it easier to help people by directing them to the relevant section of the manual.

The RoF manual was excellent, so here's hoping

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Goanna1]

Get over it mate.

The devs have said that one will come at some stage  (probably when all components of game are released eg.Full mission builder to name one factor)  and there are plenty of tutorials released already by other founders Eg Chuck

[Redroach]

The appeal of the Il-2 series was and still is (I hope) that the game(s) are so accurately modeled that you are able to use the manuals for the real planes. Hence, I doubt that there will be extensive manuals, or it would do some good, for that matter. And I certainly like it that way... see, if you fly real aircraft, you can't just climb out of a (for example) Me-109F, get into a FW-190 and just blaze away. You need to "transfer" from one type to another, and that involves... reading the manuals. Of course, that's only half the truth in Il-2 because crashes have no consequences - of course you CAN hop into the FW-190 and just learn the hard way. Ultimately, though, you'll do better if you read stuff.

For that matter, I think dedicated Il2 BoS manuals would be a waste because they will never be complete and the target audience is used to find and learn their stuff on their own way, anyways.

 

And people need to stop thinking they are fully pampered to blazing their guns on the enemy in such SIMULATION games just because they 'dished' out the 'princely' sum of 39.99...

If I think about how many hundreds of hours of entertainment is potentially in such a game, that sum is not at all that much. I want to have  working, polished game, yes. Probably with some extras here and there. But a full flight simulation with a full, professional-grade 800 pages manual going with it... that's a bit much imo. Not that the people who complain about the lack of a printed manual, will not complain again, when they see the complexity that would be necessary for that, again, though...

[oneeyeddog]

Sbishop1488  there is a lot of information in the Rise of Flight manual that can be useful to someone new to Bos, turret and control setup for instance. Its not an ideal solution but you can find it on this page  

 

 http://riseofflight.com/en/community/usefulmaterials

[CorsairHundo]

With This attitude you will have a hard time getting new (to flight combat) people enjoying the "game". I flew flight sims in the 90's but things are way different today. I think without a "manual" the hard and true sim user is fine, it's the older user (that came from the cd and manual era) and the Xbox user that may be frustrated. But at that point the developer has already collected their money so......

 

This is what happens when there's a lack of competition, you get what Ya get

 

 

 

 

 

The appeal of the Il-2 series was and still is (I hope) that the game(s) are so accurately modeled that you are able to use the manuals for the real planes. Hence, I doubt that there will be extensive manuals, or it would do some good, for that matter. And I certainly like it that way... see, if you fly real aircraft, you can't just climb out of a (for example) Me-109F, get into a FW-190 and just blaze away. You need to "transfer" from one type to another, and that involves... reading the manuals. Of course, that's only half the truth in Il-2 because crashes have no consequences - of course you CAN hop into the FW-190 and just learn the hard way. Ultimately, though, you'll do better if you read stuff.

For that matter, I think dedicated Il2 BoS manuals would be a waste because they will never be complete and the target audience is used to find and learn their stuff on their own way, anyways.

 

And people need to stop thinking they are fully pampered to blazing their guns on the enemy in such SIMULATION games just because they 'dished' out the 'princely' sum of 39.99...

If I think about how many hundreds of hours of entertainment is potentially in such a game, that sum is not at all that much. I want to have  working, polished game, yes. Probably with some extras here and there. But a full flight simulation with a full, professional-grade 800 pages manual going with it... that's a bit much imo. Not that the people who complain about the lack of a printed manual, will not complain again, when they see the complexity that would be necessary for that, again, though...

[Lupus]

Just to chime in.

 

I think the expectation of a basic manual, to cover all those things that are not "Plane Specific" per se, is certainly to be expected.  He, and many others, did not buy this game pre-release with the promise of "Early Access", knowing they were buying a product that was still under development, but rather were expecting a finished product.  I understand that there are going to be patches (that has become the accepted standard for the gaming industry).  No one is going to complain about added features either.

 

However, knowing some of the basic information about the game itself, is essential and should be expected when it is "Released as a finished product".  A basic manual should not be an "added feature" released with later content.

 

For example, I have spent the last hour scouring the internet to try and figure out why, in the unlocked ammo loadout, some of the bullets are blue and some are orange, and what the difference is between the guns available.  This should be in a manual and should have been available at release.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Lupus

[LukeFF]

 

 

For example, I have spent the last hour scouring the internet to try and figure out why, in the unlocked ammo loadout, some of the bullets are blue and some are orange, and what the difference is between the guns available.  This should be in a manual and should have been available at release.

 

That particular feature was not in the game at release, and it highlights again why Jason held off on releasing a manual at release time. The game was in a state of flux all the way until the official release date, and of course it's still being updated. When the team feels the game is stable enough to write a manual is when a manual will be written. That's the way it's been with the ROF manual.  

[Lupus]

That particular feature was not in the game at release, and it highlights again why Jason held off on releasing a manual at release time. The game was in a state of flux all the way until the official release date, and of course it's still being updated. When the team feels the game is stable enough to write a manual is when a manual will be written. That's the way it's been with the ROF manual.  

 

So add that in as a "updated version" of the manual.  This still side steps the basic question.  Should we or should we not be able to expect some kind of manual (even one that may be outdated soon) at release?  I think the answer to that is yes.

 

If you are so uncertain of your product that you aren't willing to take the time to write any sort of manual for it, then it is still under development and should be released as such, sold with the understanding that you are being given "Early Access" and not listed as "Released" yet.

 

I did buy this game and get early access.  I didn't expect a manual then.  The game was still under development.  They didn't even have an option to set convergence when I got the game.  At that point, no manual is expected.  However, once you have gone to the public and said "Here is our game, ready for release and general consumption".  There should be an expectation that a basic manual is provided, even if you plan to update later, and perhaps update the manual as well.

[JimTM]

I wonder if a Wiki site might be a better alternative for the devs rather than putting out a manual. That way, they can put out some basic content, make updates "on the fly" (so to speak), and invite trusted users to contribute content. My former company is moving to a Wiki for those reasons and I think it will be the norm soon.

Edited December 28, 2014 by JimTM

[Lupus]

I wonder if a Wiki site might be a better alternative for the devs rather than putting out a manual. That way, they can make updates "on the fly" (so to speak) and invite trusted users to contribute content. My former company is moving to a Wiki for those reasons and I think it will be the norm soon.

 

That would also be a suitable option I think.

[LukeFF]

 

 

So add that in as a "updated version" of the manual.

 

Then people would be complaining the manual is incomplete, full of errors, that the team is lazy, etc., etc., and then we'd have to endure all the constant pestering about when an updated manual would be released.

 

 

 

This still side steps the basic question.  Should we or should we not be able to expect some kind of manual (even one that may be outdated soon) at release?  I think the answer to that is yes.

 

 

Nothing is being sidestepped here. A basic quick start guide (with which I was involved) was included with the game, so I refute the notion that people were left in the dark when they purchased the game. 

 

Getting back to the topic of the main manual: I don't think you realize how much work goes into creating a manual of this scope. It's one thing to write a manual for a game that is relatively stable in terms of features, and it's quite another to write one for a game for which features were changing right up until release and continue to be changed post-release. It would be a waste of the author's time, as sections would need to be re-written and proofread multiple times to make sure everything is kosher. In other words, there would be a high chance for a lot of errors to crop into the manual. As someone who's written most of the ROF manual, I can tell you I (1) dislike doing things twice and (2) dislike having obvious errors in my work. 

 

There's also the fact that, in this day and age of the Web, people can find out answers to their questions very quickly online, so the need to have a hard copy manual on day 1 of release is less important now than in the days of slow, costly, and limited Internet access. It doesn't remove the need for a manual, though, of course.

 

 

 

If you are so uncertain of your product that you aren't willing to take the time to write any sort of manual for it, then it is still under development and should be released as such, sold with the understanding that you are being given "Early Access" and not listed as "Released" yet.

 

Like I said, that would be a waste of limited resources. Better to do it once and do it right, rather than release some half-finished work that everyone will just laugh at.

 

A manual will eventually come. It's just going to take some more time to get there.

[Lupus]

First, neither I, nor the OP is asking for a printed manual.  I didn't buy this game in a store.  I bought it online, with a digital download.  A .pdf manual is all I expect.

 

And I understand that things change, the manual may not be up to date all the time, etc.  I get that you hate doing things twice.  So do we all.  I'm not asking for a manual to be written and re-written with every patch and update.  But what I would like, and as a consumer, I believe I should be able to expect when a game releases, is a manual that is current at the time of release, that should explain the basics of that game.

 

I can tell you, that at work, I am expected to put things out on time.  And in this case, on time was at release.  If I have to change something, I am expected to update and re-release that information and make an effort to get the word out that something has changed.  This doesn't mean you have to re-do it.  Write an Errata for the manual when you make an update (probably the easiest thing to do) or simply edit the original document and re-release it (probably the hard way).  Own up and deal with the fact that your releasing a product that isn't really ready for release, take responsibility for that, and take the extra effort that then requires; or continue to sell it as a "Early Access" game.

 

NO ONE that I am aware of, complained about the lack of a manual until this game was "Released".

 

I know a manual will "eventually come"; but at this point, it's late.  Over 2 months late.  "Eventually" could mean anywhere from tomorrow to 6 months to 1 year from now.

 

Here is what I think happened.  They realized that they Christmas was coming.  Wanted to release prior to Christmas, figured the game was in a playable state (which it is, certainly), and said to hell with the polish and the few missing features they knew they needed and released so they could get in on the "Christmas" sale to make a few extra bucks rather than wait until it was truly ready and "Release" later and miss the Christmas sales season.

 

If this is the difference between us having a sim that is financially successful and one that isn't, then by all means.  Release before you should.  But if so, own it and put together a crap manual or Wiki that answers some of the questions.  Like what unlocks there are and in what order, what the default commands are, what the different difficulties in the campaign mode mean, etc.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Lupus

[CorsairHundo]

Hell, they still provide hard copied owners manuals for cars even with the manual in the cars HD. Why? Because there's still people who read an actual book. By the way what is the difference in the different color bullets? Is it telling you you have only so many left at that color?

[Lupus]

Never did find an answer to that question.  Nor have I been able to find out what the settings are for the campaign missions flown with Expert and Normal difficulty.

[oneeyeddog]

 

 

For example, I have spent the last hour scouring the internet to try and figure out why, in the unlocked ammo loadout, some of the bullets are blue and some are orange, and what the difference is between the guns available.  This should be in a manual and should have been available at release.

 I Thought the red were armor piercing and the blue were high explosive. I thought, if you hover your cursor over a particular weapon loadout, a popup window will give some info such as rate of fire and how much a particular weapon weighs.

[Lupus]

 I Thought the red were armor piercing and the blue were high explosive. I thought, if you hover your cursor over a particular weapon loadout, a popup window will give some info such as rate of fire and how much a particular weapon weighs.

 

And here I thought the blue ones were armor piercing and the orange/red ones were HE rounds.  I tried hovering over the particular loadouts but got no additional infomration (and we are going off topic at this point.)

[oneeyeddog]

 I stand corrected. You are right, The hovering cursor does not work any more, but it used to. Sorry.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

 I stand corrected. You are right, The hovering cursor does not work any more, but it used to. Sorry.

 

Hell Dog ... MY hovering don't work any more either and MY warranty is WAY out ..... LOL

 

Chief

Edited December 28, 2014 by -NW-ChiefRedCloud

[oneeyeddog]

Hell Dog ... MY hovering don't work any more either and MY warranty is WAY out ..... LOL

 

Chief

They just don't make hovering cursors like they used to, Chief.

[Lupus]

lol

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

Personally I understand them waiting till they have all their ducks in a row before producing a manual. And I can understand why some might need it more than others. But even though it can be tedious, the forums has most everything you might need to "know" BoS. But as someone said above, it doesn't matter as someone will gripe about it either way. No offence to the original poster.

 

I can't even remember just how long it took to update the Rise of Fight manual but when they did, they did an excellent job. So I have no doubt that 1CGS will do their best to make us all proud. Heck I would go so far as to say "IF" the made a bound copy available for purchase (with the free digital to everyone), some of us would buy it.

 

Chief

[AirDnD]

I agree that the lack of a manual is an obscene omission.

 

This game is inaccessible to new players. The steep learning curve is exacerbated by the lack of basic information included with the premium purchase price.

 

You may attract noobs like me, who've played IL2 for 12 years. But where is the new-blood going to come from?

[Feathered_IV]

This whole website is one big manual, if you just take a moment to look.

[LukeFF]

I can't even remember just how long it took to update the Rise of Flight manual but when they did, they did an excellent job

 

 

Thank you. It was and has been a big job, but I'm very proud and happy with what's been produced.  

[Redroach]

I hear (read) what you're saying. Maybe you're right about having some manual for the specific BOS Interface where things like the above-mentioned bullet colors etc. are explained.

But still, manuals which start out with: "rudder->yaw; elevator->pitch; ailerons->roll" are pretty much redundant in the age of the internet imo,

[Lupus]

This whole website is one big manual, if you just take a moment to look.

 

I have taken the time to look.  Please, if I have done such an abhorrent job in my search, point out to me (i.e. link) where I can find the information related to Weapons Load Out and what the different Bullet Colors mean, also, where I can find information on what the difference is between Normal and Expert in Campaign mode?

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

Well things could be a lot worse than having to wait for a "good" manual. I bought my granddaughter (who lives with us) a TV for Christmas. Well the manual was very, er, weak. It told me how to insert batteries in the remote, how to attach the base with four screws, and how to plug it into the wall. That was about the extent of it. So yes, it could be a lot worse than waiting for a comprehensive manual.  

 

But on a good note, we at New Wings are hoping to open our US Training server and our Wargrounds server for BoS very soon. There we will help those that we can with what knowledge we have (don't laugh as we are all learning too).

 

Chief

[Snacko]

I too am waiting for a manual.  I don't have the time (or patience) to search for every single topic that I want to know about in this game.  I have better ways to use my time, and there are other sims that I can hop in and fly with no problems right now.  So, I hope a manual comes out very soon.

[Redwulf__68]

I wrote some of this in another thread which I started asking in vain for an explanation of external camera control but can wade in here too.

I work as an engineer, consulting to a major utility. For every piece of work we do where the methodology is non standard, we have to write up an explanation of why, what & how to replicate it so that the client can once we have delivered our product. 

 

Therefore it seems somewhat absurd to be unable to discover a coherent, consistent explanation of all commands, settings & general options even within this forum. A wiki may be the answer, however the moderator element to put this together will be immense. 

I've seen some folk try to explain with screenshots of their settings; the issue is that I'm still none the wiser about the overall interaction of these commands within the game without basic descriptions of individual function.

A simple understanding or acceptance that, for example, if Track IR is selected, all view commands be overwritten, leaving those combinations for another function would be a start.

In closing, I think that for those waiting for a manual, it will never happen. To write-up an retrospective guide whilst simultaneously developing a new game with the same size of development team is a near impossible task. The best we can hope for is a robust collation exercise before the forum becomes unmanageable.

We shall see...

 

[LukeFF]

 

 

In closing, I think that for those waiting for a manual, it will never happen. To write-up an retrospective guide whilst simultaneously developing a new game with the same size of development team is a near impossible task. The best we can hope for is a robust collation exercise before the forum becomes unmanageable. We shall see...

 

(Ahem) 

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/13471-official-manuals/?do=findComment&comment=228106

 

(/Ahem)

[Redwulf__68]

~S~s Luke,

 

Many thanks for the link. Good to know that I can be wrong sometimes.

 

Equally it would be good to amalgamate and/or lock similar threads to aid both information and support.

 

 

(Ahem) 

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/13471-official-manuals/?do=findComment&comment=228106

 

(/Ahem)

 

 

Cheers for now & I'll watch the other thread instead!

 

[LukeFF]

No worries, Redwulf Progress with the manual is coming along well. 

[senseispcc]

Get over it mate.

The devs have said that one will come at some stage  (probably when all components of game are released eg.Full mission builder to name one factor)  and there are plenty of tutorials released already by other founders Eg Chuck

This is a cavalier way of saying the Customer is only the payer and that is all he as no rigth to a correct product.

Tutorials are not a manual if you can read the first post you should maybe know the diference?!

No this game like many new games must produce money before it is created or/and finished. This is a trend we see more and more.

I did already ask the same question some time ago and did get the same answers no time, this work shall be done by the players for nothing and if you are not happy it is the same price,   

[LukeFF]

This is a cavalier way of saying the Customer is only the payer and that is all he as no rigth to a correct product.

Tutorials are not a manual if you can read the first post you should maybe know the diference?!

No this game like many new games must produce money before it is created or/and finished. This is a trend we see more and more.

I did already ask the same question some time ago and did get the same answers no time, this work shall be done by the players for nothing and if you are not happy it is the same price,   

 

You're just making things worse by quoting a reply that was made 3 months ago. A manual is being made. Chillax.