Tank sturdiness

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

Hello all and devs,

 

As a tanks enthousiast, i couldn't wait for FMB to make test with tanks.

No surprise to destroy them easily with 37mm of Stuka and Sturmovik

 

but i also discovered that you can destroy them with the blue 23mm (LaGG-3) and even with the blue 20 mm of La-5 ?!?

 

I made test with Sturmgeschutz and Panzer IV. Both smokes with one burst and explode with a second one

 

How is it possible ? All incoming online campaigns will be corrupted if LaGG-3/La-5 can destroy german tanks with such efficiency... 

 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I'm not sure, I never seem to be able to get tanks with the lower calibers, maybe I'm just a bad shot. If even put bombs very close to them and nothing

Edited December 9, 2014 by AeroAce

[Yakdriver]

It is very well documented that The P-47 could knock out a tiger tank by using the 12.7mm Guns and ricochet effect.
This has been discussed to death, but but noone believes it.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Yakdriver

[Juri_JS]

I have no data for the 20 mm ShVAK, but the VYa-23 with AP ammo should be capable to penetrate the rear and upper armour of the Stug and Panzer IV if the angle of impact is correct.

[LukeFF]

It is very well documented that The P-47 could knock out a tiger tank by using the 12.7mm Guns and ricochet effect.

This has been discussed to death, but but noone believes it.

 

Because it's nonsense.

[SCG_Neun]

Not sure if this helps...but it gives a basic overview in some key areas...Ammunition Overview

Edited December 9, 2014 by JagdNeun

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

There is no P-47 here so it's no need to discuss about it

 

I have no data for the 20 mm ShVAK, but the VYa-23 with AP ammo should be capable to penetrate the rear and upper armour of the Stug and Panzer IV if the angle of impact is correct.

Yeah maybe the 23mm but i could destroy them in every position (didn't try front however)

 

Anyway i never heard that russian pilots did destroy german tanks with a fighter. Even the use of 37mm on Il-2 was very little

[PA-Sniv]

In BoS, LaGG-3 with VYa-23 and AP ammo is indeed a real and fast tank buster (didn't try with La-5).

Don't know whether this is realistic or not, but online campaign will indeed be affected by this.

 

Cheers,

[sallee]

It is very well documented that The P-47 could knock out a tiger tank by using the 12.7mm Guns and ricochet effect.

This has been discussed to death, but but noone believes it.

Yay!

[Juri_JS]

Anyway i never heard that russian pilots did destroy german tanks with a fighter. Even the use of 37mm on Il-2 was very little

There were anti-tank/ground attack versions of the LaGG and Yak, but I think they mostly used 37 mm cannons.

[Yakdriver]

Yay!

here we go again!

welcome to the apit ammo threads...

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

There were anti-tank/ground attack versions of the LaGG and Yak, but I think they mostly used 37 mm cannons.

+1. They used 37mm (or 45mm with Yak-9 K) because a lower caliber can't penetrate german tank armour.

 

Even with this caliber, only expert pilot could destroy a tank. Just read Rudel's book. He had to aim small grid over radiator behind the turret in dive at 45° in order to have a chance.

[coconut]

Just a quick noob question: Is it necessary to attack tanks from behind with all calibers, or can the 37mm deal with a tank from all angles?

[Juri_JS]

Here a pic of the turret of a German Panzer 38t hit by Vya-23 shells. The Vya was able to penetrate up to 25 mm of amour, that's more than the rear and top armour of the Stug and Panzer IV. So it should be possible to destroy tanks with this gun in BoS, though not from the front or side.

[oneeyeddog]

Just a quick noob question: Is it necessary to attack tanks from behind with all calibers, or can the 37mm deal with a tank from all angle

I believe I've had success with the 37mm from all angles and with the 20 and 23mm from the rear and sides. In game there does not appear to be much difference between the side and rear armour.

[Lusekofte]

In this game there are no seemingly difference hitting it on the sides or back, but it might be how many bullets you hit.

The 37 mm cannons was not a effective weapon against late war tanks, they did take some out. But the unsynchronized guns made the plane move too much caused by recoil so the aiming was really bad, The JU-87 G1 synchronized guns was far more effective in the hands of the few that handled it.

I would not call out nonsense about the ricochet theory, but pilots claims regarding ground targets was at best optimistic. I heard about it before, but as far as I know there are not any proof at all. I personally do not believe it, because tiger tanks was armored underneath also, they was protected from scrapnell from mines and such, 

But the 50 cal bullets used was hard covered with magnesium so it had good capabilities to burn into and thru steel plates. As soon as it hit something it burned.

Russian SB 2 bombers was flying torches since they was covered in Magnesium. A real death trap

[Wulf]

I've never been able to destroy Soviet armour with the guns on my 190 - and I've tried on numerous occasions.  Maybe I'm doing it wrong but I can't do it.

 

As for a .5 cal Browning being able to penetrate a Tiger; well, that's just fanciful.  As others have commented, even a 37mm must be considered marginal at best when employed against what goes for MBTs in WW 2.  Certainly, in 1940, when the Germans successfully defeated the French, they found their 37mm AT guns were all but a waste of time against the larger, more advanced French tanks, such as the Char B.  It would be interesting to know what would have happened if the Germans hadn't had their 88 mm flak guns to fall back on during the campaign.  But clearly, if you could direct the projectiles from a 37 mm against the upper decking of an ATV, your chances would no doubt increase somewhat.   

 

Have a look at the Youtube link below on the firing of a 75mm Pak 40.  This is what you need to stop a mid/late war tank in WW 2.  (to save time start at 6.30)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7fhBm1ouSU

Edited December 9, 2014 by Wulf

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

The Vya was able to penetrate up to 25 mm of amour, that's more than the rear and top armour of the Stug and Panzer IV. So it should be possible to destroy tanks with this gun in BoS, though not from the front or side.

Ok for the 23mm, it's a special caliber which u have only on LaGG-3 and Il-2

It should be possible and it is in BoS despite it almost never happened for real...

With this caliber, you destroy tanks like trucks as of now, can it be normal ? No

 

 

But what about the ShVak ?

I tried again without taking only blue AP ammo and i could destroy a Sturmgeschutz with a... Yak-1

 

 

Please developpers, don't tell me the whole VVS can destroy tanks and only the Stuka in the Luftwaffe...

Edited December 9, 2014 by 64sTomio

[Yakdriver]

I would not call out nonsense about the ricochet theory, but pilots claims regarding ground targets was at best optimistic. I heard about it before, but as far as I know there are not any proof at all. I personally do not believe it, because tiger tanks was armored underneath also, they was protected from scrapnell from mines and such,

Luse i was just joking...  for old times sake.

[JG1_Pragr]

Here a pic of the turret of a German Panzer 38t hit by Vya-23 shells. The Vya was able to penetrate up to 25 mm of amour, that's more than the rear and top armour of the Stug and Panzer IV. So it should be possible to destroy tanks with this gun in BoS, though not from the front or side.

 

 

There are several problems with this number. First the angle of impact is not specified. With the full steel round (as VVS didn't use the tungsten ammo) this number stands for 90 degrees angle of impact probably. Good luck to try 90 degrees dive on tank so you should be able to hit the top part from perfect angle. Especially since any kind of lowering the impact angle reduce the penetration ability by huge. Second, we have no information about the methodology of tests used for determined this number. There are huge differences between what "penetration" meant in US, UK, Germany and Russia. All countries define it in very different way. Last about the rear part, only Pz IV had the rear armor 20 mm thick. Pz III and Stug III had 30 mm both.

Just for comparison: the 30x184B (the ammunition for Mk103 canon), there are more hard data available. The round with tungsten core was able to penetrate 75 to 90 mm of armor at 300 m on 90 degrees impact angle. 60 degrees of impact angle reduced the penetration ability almost to half (45 to 52 mm) at the same distance. Additionally lower the impact angle is the higher possibility the round ricochet or deflect from ideal path decreasing the chance to get the best penetration numbers.

 

I don't claim that medium tanks shall be immune to VYa fire under all circumstance. I just say that the destruction of anything heavier than Pz 38t shall be exception rather than rule.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

+1. They used 37mm (or 45mm with Yak-9 K) because a lower caliber can't penetrate german tank armour.

 

Even with this caliber, only expert pilot could destroy a tank. Just read Rudel's book. He had to aim small grid over radiator behind the turret in dive at 45° in order to have a chance.

 

I think we can safely assume Rudel did not use the Russian Shpitalny Sh-37 on German armour. We may be comparing apples and oranges here.

[Yakmaster]

To OP, did you buy tank game or airplane game 

 

ground units at least look like real units so it's good enough, only thing they can do is to make german 20mm shell equal powerful so it's easy to destroy russian tanks with them and problem solved, game has to be fun 

[JtD]

The game can still be fun when it's accurate, so the better option is to have it accurate.

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

-1 Yakmaster

 

I bought an airplane game but this game is called Il-2, a dedicated ground attack plane which means ground units has to be modelled correctly...

 

I aim to make realistic online campaign soon. What if all the german tanks get destroyed because all the VVS planes can do so with 20mm

 

Game has to be fun for Warthunder players, are you one of them ?

[SKG51_robtek]

 

To OP, did you buy tank game or airplane game 

 

ground units at least look like real units so it's good enough, only thing they can do is to make german 20mm shell equal powerful so it's easy to destroy russian tanks with them and problem solved, game has to be fun 

 

Yes, just forget the sim-part and make it a real game!

[7.GShAP/Silas]

 

To OP, did you buy tank game or airplane game 

 

ground units at least look like real units so it's good enough, only thing they can do is to make german 20mm shell equal powerful so it's easy to destroy russian tanks with them and problem solved, game has to be fun 

 

 

There is no game/sim/whatever without appropriately modelling the units that did 98% of the work: the ground forces, in this case armored vehicles.

 

If you give fighter aircraft the ability to destroy armored vehicles with no basis in reality, not only are you compromising the integrity of the game/sim/whatever but you are marginalizing the most vital part of the air forces: those that flew in support of their ground forces and struck at the enemy. Why fly an IL2 if you can destroy tanks in a Yak just as easily? Why escort rather than dogfight if there are no dedicated ground attackers to protect?

[Yakmaster]

-1 Yakmaster

 

I bought an airplane game but this game is called Il-2, a dedicated ground attack plane which means ground units has to be modelled correctly...

 

I aim to make realistic online campaign soon. What if all the german tanks get destroyed because all the VVS planes can do so with 20mm

 

Game has to be fun for Warthunder players, are you one of them ?

 

Yes i do play WT  

 

but back to topic, i don't believe devs will listen to observation if you don't back it up with some data and evidence in documents(like FM claim topic) , try to PM Han or try to ask question on russian forum also its most likely to be seen by them.

 

Good luck with realistic campaign, i would really like to know if something like that is possible without slow downs and some normal number of players and ground units fighting.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Yakmaster

[donkeycods]

I've even destroyed a panzer with a direct kinetic hit from an unarmed bomb once.

[Brano]

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11032-tank-busting-il-2/?hl=%20tankbusting

[SCG_Neun]

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11032-tank-busting-il-2/?hl=%20tankbusting

Thanks great link for this...

[Zak]

if you don't back it up with some data and evidence in documents(like FM claim topic) , try to PM Han

The best advice ever, thank you, you're very attentive.

I've even destroyed a panzer with a direct kinetic hit from an unarmed bomb once.

What's wrong with it? The bombs itself is heavy and falls with great acceleration.

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

 

I would not call out nonsense about the ricochet theory, but pilots claims regarding ground targets was at best optimistic. I heard about it before, but as far as I know there are not any proof at all. I personally do not believe it, because tiger tanks was armored underneath also, they was protected from scrapnell from mines and such, 

But the 50 cal bullets used was hard covered with magnesium so it had good capabilities to burn into and thru steel plates. As soon as it hit something it burned.

 

 

At least tanks tended to burn, so it helps differentiate KO'd vs. damaged.

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

if you don't back it up with some data and evidence in documents(like FM claim topic) , try to PM Han or try to ask question on russian forum also its most likely to be seen by them.

 

Come on.. Do you need proof of which is obvious ?

 

- A 20mm ShVak cannot destroy a medium tank and i can destroy a PzIV with a Yak-1

 

- It's should not be much better with a Vya 23mm but we can destroy tanks like trucks af of now with AP rounds. In a single sortie with Il2, you can knock out several panzers. No need to take bombs or rockets. There is just no challenge

 

No need to use 37mm. 23mm is better

Edited December 11, 2014 by 64sTomio

[Yakmaster]

Come on.. Do you need proof of which is obvious ?

 

- A 20mm ShVak cannot destroy a medium tank and i can destroy a PzIV with a Yak-1

 

- It's should not be much better with a Vya 23mm but we can destroy tanks like trucks af of now with AP rounds. In a single sortie with Il2, you can knock out several panzers. No need to take bombs or rockets. There is just no challenge

 

No need to use 37mm. 23mm is better

 

Im not the one you need to convince with proof to change something you think is wrong in game 

I also dont belive 20mm cannon shell could destroy PanzerIVs but i have no data to buck that up.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2118-obsuzhdenie-versii-1003/?p=221690

Guy asks why german 20mm AP cant easy kill T-34, Han explains attack directly from top and youll get him. Penetration on 500m is 17mm on 100m is 30mm with 20mm, and on top T-34 is 15mm

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2118-obsuzhdenie-versii-1003/?p=221699

and also what would take to kill T-34, i guess they talk about in game tanks, if i understod it corectly hit T-34 with 100 bullets of 20mm from german airplane and youll destroy it (or take him out of action) 

 

Edited December 11, 2014 by Yakmaster

[donkeycods]

The best advice ever, thank you, you're very attentive.

 

What's wrong with it? The bombs itself is heavy and falls with great acceleration.

 Nothing is wrong with it. I liked it and was impressed that the kinetic damage of the bomb itself was modeled.

[Willy__]

 

 

Just a quick noob question: Is it necessary to attack tanks from behind with all calibers, or can the 37mm deal with a tank from all angles?

 

Nope.