Starting from Square One

[Ice-]

I've been a combat flight simmer for a few years now but my recent experience has been mostly DCS A10C and Falcon 4 BMS.  I picked up IL-2 BoS hoping to learn more about dogfighting and energy management but it seems like I'm starting from square one with this sim.  I've never flown WWII aircraft sims before and RoF never really appealed to me.

 

Can someone tell me what is the easiest aircraft to practice on?  I can take off, navigate, and land injured birds in my previous two simulators but in BoS, I'm back to "any landing you can walk away from...."

 

I'd like to practice a bit of dogfighting as well, can someone recommend an aircraft to practice on and to practice against?  I'm also trying to get the aiming assist to work but it doesn't seem to be available (Custom difficulty settings) even though I've mapped it to my HOTAS.

 

Any help appreciated!

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I'd say the Bf 109 F4 is the easiest aircraft to fly overall but each has strengths and weaknesses.

 

Watch requiems videos on his YouTube channel as a good starting point.

 

Are you online and do you have Teamspeak? I could hookup with you in a lower populated server and help out. Warclouds training server should be up soon as well.

Edited December 7, 2014 by HerrMurf

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

I can not make a recommendation on an aircraft but there are plenty of knowledgeable pilots on this forum that I'm quite sure you will receive an answer soon.  But I would like to Welcome you to BoS and the forums. Coming to prop pullers from fast burners is indeed a learning curve. But with practice I have no doubt you will be back on top of your game in no time. Again, Welcome ...

 

Chief

[Ice-]

I've been flying the G version.... I have watched Requiem's videos but I'm still no closer to knowing what I'm doing.

[Hazzbinn]

Do you have TS? if so I can try to help, I am no ace but I can hold my own.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

F is lighter, a little easier to control and has a less sensitive throttle overall. The downside is you have to stay below 85% throttle or you'll burn it up in just a couple of minutes.

[vonLazan]

For the dogfighting, I would recommend doing quick mission duels with the AI, progressively increasing the difficulty. This will help you get used to deflection shooting and such. Especially since coming from BMS, you'll be used to having a gun funnel calculating lead for you. Another solid resource is http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=knowledge_base. Although directed at IL-2 1946, most of the information is very relevant. This PDF will give you an idea of some of the nuances of WWII dogfighting online http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/lento_ohjeet/inpursuit/inpursuit.pdf. As others have said, easiest to learn would be the 109F-4, since the German planes tend to have very pilot firendly layouts and features (auto radiators, auto prop pitch). The German planes are more all-in when it comes to the energy fighting philosophy (although the Soviet planes do this well too). Hope this helps.

[Ice-]

Yes, I do have TS.

 

I have been dogfighting the AI (what Russian aircraft would you recommend?) with the LaGG on Novice or Average and I can win sometimes.  I have to keep reminding myself that I don't have FLCS.... when I forget that, I get into spins/stalls very easily and end up dogfighting my own aircraft instead of the enemy.

[vonLazan]

The Yak-1 is a very close competitor to the F-4. That might be a good partner for you. Although out of all the variants of the 109 (at least the E to K variants), the F-4 is the best turner, you still want to be thinking vertically and in more linear vectors when fighting with it. The F-4 is faster than the Yak, so use that to climb high and come back down at high speed, make a pass, repeat. You don't want to get into an extended turn with the Yak, you'll just bleed energy and you'll be in a dangerous position (especially if you're online, you never know when another enemy will come in). Stay high and fast, avoid head ons. That's why deflection shooting is important, because since you'll be coming in at high speed, most likely with the enemy in a bank, you'll more often than not find yourself having to make a snap shot.

 

Assuming you're the attacker, get this picture in your head when you're fighting. It's important to fly 'outside-the-cockpit', having a mental picture of the situation.

 

Edited December 8, 2014 by 2./JG54_vonLazan

[Ice-]

Thanks!  I'm practicing against a Yak-1 Average skill now.

 

Still having trouble with shooting enemies down.  At what ranges should I be shooting from?  What is the minimum/maximum range assuming I'm in an 109 F vs a Yak-1?  What should my gun convergence range be?

[Bearcat]

I would suggest around 200-320 meters.. My aim is terrible beyond that.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Most of the guns in this game are cowl or nose mounted so horizontal convergence is not terribly important. You are mostly setting your vertical convergence. I use 270 for aerial stuff and push it out to 320 for ground attack for an extra couple of tenths of seconds reaction time.

 

Also, check out Dart's video(s). His convergence video is still among the best.

 

Edited December 8, 2014 by HerrMurf

[Hazzbinn]

Hey dude, sorry I haven't replied yet, the TS details for the server are; ts3.adiclan.com with no password, you may be bombarded with recruiters, jus ttell em' to piss of and that you want to speak to harry , anyways I am on most nights and will try to help where I can.

[Ice-]

Okay, so convergence for the 109's guns means that the gun is pointed upwards?  I guess this means that if I set convergence at 300m, the gun is tilted up enough so that the rounds will be where the pipper is at 300m.... if I set convergence at 600m, the gun is tilted up even more so the rounds will be where the pipper is pointing when it gets to 600m.  Did I understand that correctly?

[Hazzbinn]

yup, much like zeroing a sight on a rifle, altho the change will be very very small as most sights want to be used from 200-500m I personally use 600m on the F-4, that is because I like to engage at a range further away and keep my distance as too make sure they cant get a good roll or bank in before I get my shots off. Also unless you get the wing mounted pods the zeroing will have minimal affect, due to the guns all being at most 2 metres apart on the plane, the angles at which they point inward will not change, the two MG's are directly in front of the sight and the cannon is just on the nose, so the horizontal angle wont change much, just the vertical.

 

I dont like to change my sights at all, I have been using a range of 600m for roughly 3 years in all WW2 flight sims, it may not be ideal for shooting at ground targets or other smaller planes but I have got used to the ranges I need to start firing on common planes, such as the BF-109 and the yak series.

[Ice-]

Okay, so if you set your convergence at 600m, do you actually shoot at aircraft at 600m?

[Hazzbinn]

yes roughly, but as said, if you aim at the right distance roughly in the BF-109 F4 most of your rounds will hit the target anyway due to the lack of horizontal angle in the zeroing of the guns. if you was in say an IL-2 and you had your guns set to 300m and shot at a target at 900m your rounds would miss by miles, reason being is that they would fall short and they would shoot wide, this is because the gun on the right wing is aiming inwards, left, to meet the same point as the gun on the left wing, that point is 300m away, but once your rounds go past that point they dont straighten up, they continue to go left or right of the target, this horizontal angle is nearly not there with the F4 due to it having all guns closely grouped.

 

and also in relation to your question, most shots fired are at an angle, you should be shooting at a plane whilst it is banking left or right, that way you can see his cockpit, engine and all the other shinies, whilst doing this of course you need to aim just in front of his plane, this is what I mean by aiming roughly at teh right distance, aiming infront of his tragectory and getting shots on, I have a video somewhere of me doing a terrible commentry whilst flying the F4, I have found it please don't judge me on my commentry skills, I suck and am out of breathe? lol Comabt starts at 5.50 but osme info on the F4 before hand if you want it.

 

http://youtu.be/dflPElX1DjA

Edited December 8, 2014 by Hazzbinn

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

600 is generally too far for the average pilot. Particularly fighter to fighter. I can maybe see this range for pure ground attack or heavy bombers. The parabolic arc on cannon shells out to 600 is pretty substantial. If you fired from dead six on a fighter at 350m you'd throw them over the top of his canopy by a fair margin.

 

250-350 would be better for training purposes. The rest of your post I generally agree with.

Edited December 9, 2014 by HerrMurf

[Hazzbinn]

Yeah I wasn't saying for him to try that range, I just prefer shooting with my guns at a longer range as a personal preference and can understand that most people do prefer shorter ranges.

[Sokol1]

Mk.Mr.X is a good deflection shooter:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTDvpD1aEc4&list=UUVsMdMurnST7sH1oo20HcbQ

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Yes he is

[Ice-]

Damn, it's hard enough getting hits while on the enemy's six, I can only imagine deflection shooting.

[vonLazan]

Are you using trim? A little bit of flaps helps too, just make sure you raise them if you're not shooting.

[Ice-]

What?  Trim?  The F only has vertical trim, I just use it to maintain level flight.... Flaps I've only really used when low on speed and still turning.

[vonLazan]

Try using the vertical stabilizer (trim) to help setup your shot and keep you steady. What is the specific issue? Bouncing, can't line up the gunsight?

[Ice-]

Well, I'm not really sure if I'm getting hits or if the enemy aircraft just needs more bullets to hit before it goes down.  I can get the enemy in my gunsights, I can keep him stable there for a few seconds.... If I'm lucky I'll get him smoking/damaged but most of the time, I don't see any difference in the enemy's performance.  I can probably damage 3 enemy fighters in a mission, or use up all my ammo and just destroy one.  Is this normal for the time period?

 

Also, my as-yet-unmodified F-4 seems to want to keep rolling to the left at certain speeds, is this normal?  Or do I need to fix my control setup?

[vonLazan]

The F-4 movement, perfectly normal. The F-4 does have 'trim' (other than the vertical stabilizer) through adjustable tabs, but was only done on the ground, so in game, I believe they are set for historical cruise altitude and speed. As for damage, if shooting at the tail, yes it can take a while since you're shooting at a smaller target, resulting in a fewer amount of rounds hitting critical parts (elevator, stabilizer). The F-4 in some Luftwaffe pilots' minds was inadequately armed (Adolf Galland being one off the top of my head). Because you have the centerline 20 mm cannon and two 7.92 mm machine guns, it's very much a precision weapons platform. Most kills I've had have come from an enemy breaking either left or right, since they expose the vital planform as a target. That being said, if you catch one in a climb, it's Christmas. Use the MGs for 'probing' and feeling out range. If you are just taking a shot that you're not sure of (high AoA break for example) use the MGs. Save the cannon for guaranteed hits.

 

Side note, AI planes can pull off inhuman magic and shouldn't be taken seriously. Think of them as flying target practice rather than just trying to kill them.

Edited December 9, 2014 by 2./JG54_vonLazan

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

The aircraft is only trimmed perfectly at one airspeed because you have no adjustable trim tabs - particularly for yaw and roll. They are ground adjustable and fixed position. Anything other than that particular airspeed will require some degree of control surface input. Sorry, I'm an Fw driver and don't recall the max cruise speed for the F4. All these prop jobs are very hands on compared to what you are used to in the jet sims you've mentioned.

[vonLazan]

All these prop jobs are very hands on compared to what you are used to in the jet sims you've mentioned.

 

Knowing Kurt Tank's ingenuity, he probably would have had a carbon copy FLCS for the 190 by 1949 lol

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

When do you typically fly? I can jump in with you if our schedules match. I have my own TS channel so we can coordinate training and tactics.

[Ice-]

I usually fly around 8pm GMT.  Flying these aircraft does take a lot of getting used to.  The insane amount of rudder just to keep straight during takeoff is one thing, but now I can at least take off and land with no problems (except that one time where I came in for a perfect landing.... only to realize I forgot to lower the gear!).

 

As for shooting, yeah, I usually get stable at the enemy's six so I am shredding the tail.  I've not been in many circle fights, so what's the best way to get to the enemy's vitals?  Boom and zoom?  That tactic takes a lot to set up and only presents a few seconds worth of shooting, plus I'm not sure I'm doing it right anyway.

 

Anyway, what's the "historical" cruise altitude and speed?

Edited December 10, 2014 by Ice-

[vonLazan]

Anyway, what's the "historical" cruise altitude and speed?

 

Frankly, not too sure on exact numbers, there is probably someone more knowledgeable than I that will come around and answer that one.

 

High yo-yos (the picture I posted above) are a good way to get positioned on those key angles. Historically, below 5000m altitude, the Yak-1 and 109F-4 would often end up in head on passes, simply because the two performed similarly. If you have someone coming at you, head on at co-altitude, after you pass eachother, immediately begin climbing off on an angle. This will give you more energy. Keep an eye on the opponent, then when you feel things starting to get sluggish, a little bit of flaps and rudder over to point at the enemy. Dive in, high speed, make a pass. If he breaks hard, climb again and repeat. This will widen your advantage. Eventually, he'll bleed too much E and will be a sitting duck. If he dives, you can chase, but if he breaks in a dive, again, climb up, on an angle (in the same direction as his turn), but now gently roll into his turn to cut him off. Repeat until he's dead or stalls.

 

This video is from IL-2 Cliffs of Dover, but it's very similar to what you have to do to defeat a Yak.

 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Initially just trap. Find a pursuit of one of your buddies on the periphery of the furball (I'm talking MP here). If it is a rookie Ruskie (see what I did there?), who doesn't check six like he should, you can settle up nicely behind him. It happens fairly often. I also like to trap in the vertical. Find a guy at the top of his arc while you are descending or in a shallow climb and pick them off that way. Stay away from circle fights until you know your aircraft MUCH better and remember the Russian aircraft typically have tighter turning circles than the German aircraft.

 

BNZ has many advantages but, yes, must be well though out in advance. Both German types, Bf and Fw, are well suited to it. The advantage is the ability to extend, evaluate and decide to disengage or attack again.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Oh, til you have gained experience don't follow a Russian AC through more than 270 degrees or so. And keep your airspeed above 300 kph - I usuall aim to keep my minimum above 325 for the most part.

[Ice-]

What do you mean "trap"??  What I know is that term means to land on an aircraft carrier.....

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Ambush pilots who are target fixated in a long chase behind a teammate. Don't get fixated yourself while doing it. Keep your SA and check six often.

Edited December 11, 2014 by HerrMurf

[HippyDruid]

 

Helpful video, thanks for sharing.

[coconut]

Although I think all the advice given here regarding boom and zoom is good, my personal experience flying a Yak-1 versus BF109-F4 tells me the planes are not very close performance-wise. The F4 has a major advantage in that it can convert its fuel into speed and altitude much more efficiently than the Yak. That means that German pilots get to choose when to engage and when to disengage, and that's a major advantage.

 

If you feel you don't have the absolute upper hand over your enemy, simply do a turning climb to the left. No Russian plane can follow you there. If they try, they'll just end up stalling. If they disengage, you now have the upper hand and can attack them. They can also stay behind you, matching your turn and your speed, but not your altitude. Eventually you will be able to convert your altitude difference into speed and distance, and start over the fight on your terms. In general, German planes like to turn to the left, whereas Russians like to turn to the right. Avoid engaging in a turn fight to the wrong side, and try to lure your enemy into turning into your good side.

 

Boom and zoom is not the only offensive tactic you have as German, I think it's not even the most effective one. It is however the safest one. In an online fight where more enemies may enter the fight at any time, this is important. An F4 is more than capable of keeping up with or out-turning a Yak, especially near stall speed. There is a range of speed and altitude where the Yak is slightly better, but not by much. It's also easy to get out of that range simply by bleeding energy.

 

I did a lot of fights against the AI off-line, and it's not hard to win as BF109 F4 vs a Yak-1. The naive "lead-pursuit all the time" works more often as a BF109 F4 as a Yak-1. Online, it's a bit different, as players are less predictable and you have to take network lag into account when defending (enemies get shooting windows on you even though it looks like to you they shouldn't ).

 

Training against the AI is a good thing to do, but don't overdo it. You might pick up tactics that won't work very well against humans. Contrarily to what someone else wrote here, it seems to me the AI don't push their planes to the limits and are easier to follow than humans. At least until Veteran level, I don't know about Ace. Record all your online fights (Ctrl+R) and look at how people fly, especially those who shot you down.

 

I have never flown at normal difficulty myself, but I'm considering to do it. I'm hoping that the speed counter on the HUD will help me learn what works and what doesn't at different speed ranges. In expert mode, I don't always have/take the time to look at the dials while fighting, as taking my eyes off the enemy makes it easy to lose track of him.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Although I think all the advice given here regarding boom and zoom is good, my personal experience flying a Yak-1 versus BF109-F4 tells me the planes are not very close performance-wise. The F4 has a major advantage in that it can convert its fuel into speed and altitude much more efficiently than the Yak. That means that German pilots get to choose when to engage and when to disengage, and that's a major advantage.

 

If you feel you don't have the absolute upper hand over your enemy, simply do a turning climb to the left. No Russian plane can follow you there. If they try, they'll just end up stalling. If they disengage, you now have the upper hand and can attack them. They can also stay behind you, matching your turn and your speed, but not your altitude. Eventually you will be able to convert your altitude difference into speed and distance, and start over the fight on your terms. In general, German planes like to turn to the left, whereas Russians like to turn to the right. Avoid engaging in a turn fight to the wrong side, and try to lure your enemy into turning into your good side.

 

Boom and zoom is not the only offensive tactic you have as German, I think it's not even the most effective one. It is however the safest one. In an online fight where more enemies may enter the fight at any time, this is important. An F4 is more than capable of keeping up with or out-turning a Yak, especially near stall speed. There is a range of speed and altitude where the Yak is slightly better, but not by much. It's also easy to get out of that range simply by bleeding energy.

 

I did a lot of fights against the AI off-line, and it's not hard to win as BF109 F4 vs a Yak-1. The naive "lead-pursuit all the time" works more often as a BF109 F4 as a Yak-1. Online, it's a bit different, as players are less predictable and you have to take network lag into account when defending (enemies get shooting windows on you even though it looks like to you they shouldn't ).

 

Training against the AI is a good thing to do, but don't overdo it. You might pick up tactics that won't work very well against humans. Contrarily to what someone else wrote here, it seems to me the AI don't push their planes to the limits and are easier to follow than humans. At least until Veteran level, I don't know about Ace. Record all your online fights (Ctrl+R) and look at how people fly, especially those who shot you down.

 

I have never flown at normal difficulty myself, but I'm considering to do it. I'm hoping that the speed counter on the HUD will help me learn what works and what doesn't at different speed ranges. In expert mode, I don't always have/take the time to look at the dials while fighting, as taking my eyes off the enemy makes it easy to lose track of him.

Fortunately, for the Soviets (in game), there are plenty of Luftwaffe pilots who still choose to turn and burn instead of heeding this sage advice - to their ultimate peril.

[GP*]

I'd say the Bf 109 F4 is the easiest aircraft to fly overall but each has strengths and weaknesses.

 

Watch requiems videos on his YouTube channel as a good starting point.

 

Are you online and do you have Teamspeak? I could hookup with you in a lower populated server and help out. Warclouds training server should be up soon as well.

Who started Warclouds back in the day? I can't remember his name that he flew under but I used to fly on TS with him all the time.