My kill or not my kill - that is the question

[sturmkraehe]

I don't mind if other players shoot and down planes in MP that I have made smoking.

 

But imho other ppl shooting at planes that burn is blatant kill stealing. Unfortunately the game engine only takes into account who set the last shot and not who did the decisive damage. As long as it is just grey smoke even if it was me to make the engine stop in a few minutes I am fine but planes that obviously are doomed like burning planes should be given to that player who did this and not who set the last shot. So my request would be to take burning planes "out of the game" (similar to those which engine is dead) and give the kill to the person who set it to flames.

Edited November 20, 2014 by sturmkraehe

[Yakdriver]

Fly for Points or fly to win... Is THAT the question?

I would like to propose another way of playing, after having gone through a similar ordeal myself.
i am a shafty Fighter Pilot, so every kill is like an Oscar or the Nobel prize for me.

I have the following thoughts to offer you:

YOU know you pumped him full of 151/20
You KNOW you pumped him full of 151/20
and combined:
YOU KOW you pumped him full of 151/20

 

and therefor you do not need any Stats to "prove" it.
F! anyone else. YOU KNOW you shot that enemy. YOU KNOW he went down in the dirt, sooner or later. He could never make it back to his own side of the frontline.

and that is all that matters.


?

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I thought this game was based on who caused the most damage. Not, like the original, he who shoots last.

[Y-29.Silky]

I disagree and agree. I made a similar post when I was raped in an He-111. Story time..

 

Story 1: in the early access I was hit by griund fire. My pilot and plane were badly wounded/damaged. I managed to make it back to base, turn my engine off, yet it still said ground forces shot me down. I was like, wtf? And someone mentioned the kill system is mostly based on the engine.

 

Story 2: which I mentioned in my previous post, I shot an Il-2 to hell, he made it back, but I got no credit which I would have before. Fine with me, he made it back.

 

Story 3:I see a lightly smoking La-5 crawling back home, looked like he wasnt going to make it, I dove on him and ripped his wing off anyways. I got no credit, but someone else did. I'm fine with that,his kill wasnt stolen, and he didn't have to drive the enemy into the ground as if it were war thunder, just until he was combat ineffective. There was no reason for me to engage.

 

Story 4: just yesterday, I saw a pe2 who had a water leak in one engine coming from buzinovka where out supply dump was, I sent him crashing down in flames, I got no credit for the kill. I'm assuming "Ground Forces" received credit which is bs.

 

Story 5: I was in an He-111, a yak shotme up good to where I had to try a forced landing at the enemy base. Next thing I see is 3 more yaks making passes on me until my wing is off.The original Yak got credit for the kill.

 

Just as when Needlessly took out the la-5, those 3 yaks were doing nothing but wasting ammo and losing situational awareness, targeting an enemy for nothing other than wanting to rack up stats. They weren't finishing me off for their wingman, thats for sure.

 

But the ground forces stealing kills is the problem I have. I'm glad you made this post because I can't wrap my head around on how the kill system works.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Silky

[Rolling_Thunder]

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn. Who really cares who gets the kill? Just think of it this way. Those idiots chasing down a burning enemy are just wasting their ammo, they're morons plain and simple. Unfortunately it's the internet with no real repercussions for being a really bad player. It's going to happen in any game with a scoring system based around the individual and not the team. I wait for a company or an individual to produce a game that promotes team play and not individual glory.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Fly for Points or fly to win... Is THAT the question?

I would like to propose another way of playing, after having gone through a similar ordeal myself.

i am a shafty Fighter Pilot, so every kill is like an Oscar or the Nobel prize for me.

I have the following thoughts to offer you:

YOU know you pumped him full of 151/20

You KNOW you pumped him full of 151/20

and combined:

YOU KOW you pumped him full of 151/20

 

and therefor you do not need any Stats to "prove" it.

F! anyone else. YOU KNOW you shot that enemy. YOU KNOW he went down in the dirt, sooner or later. He could never make it back to his own side of the frontline.

 

and that is all that matters.

 

 

?

 

Or they could work on the claim system since it is currently inaccurate..?

[LAL_Luny]

 Many real fighters from WW2 never got their  "right" kills number. Some lost ones some were over attributed.

 

In the RAF and FAFL/8th AF for which my grandfather flew they had to to prove their victories either by a witness or by a record.

 

They didnt care the goal was not to lose the war

Edited November 21, 2014 by FZG_Luny

[Chuck_Owl]

The kill claims is a very interesting topic.

 

While some air forces had a tendency to overclaim (and trust me, all air forces did it at some point... but in some branches it was a bit more apparent than in others), the "score" system was basically based on the after-action report after each flight.

 

If 3 guys fought the same enemy plane and shot at it, it could be interpreted in many different ways. Either the guys would assume that they all shot at a different guy and claim one kill each, or they would assume that they had all been shooting the same guy, which would give each of them a third of a kill (that's how the RAF scoring system worked if I recall correctly). I know the Germans invented a "point" system that encouraged killing bombers rather than fighters, because there were more crew members aboard and that the bombs were aimed directly at german factories, which had much more incidence on the outcome of the war than a single fighter plane.

 

There are instances in the 8th Air Force that gunners in B-17 claimed more 109 kills in a single sortie than there were available german planes in the whole region! It`s partly explained because in the heat of battle you don't always know if you shot the plane down or if another gunner from another plane did...

 

IRL the scoring system itself wasn't accurate most of the time. I know the Germans took particular care to properly identify their kills so they'd avoid overclaims (most kills had to be confirmed by another eyewitness), but there might be instances where they overclaimed as well.

Edited November 21, 2014 by 71st_AH_Chuck

[johncage]

kill stealing only happens when points are recorded and become an object for ego masturbation.

 

single player oriented sims naturally lack this aspect.

[vonPilsner]

It is difficult to know what to do as well... As someone who occasionally flies online I feel like if I am VVS and I see a 109 and Yak in a dogfight in real life I would help out my Yak friend, online I just fly away from them as I don't know if he's an expert who will think I'm vulching or if he's an average pilot who can use the help.

 

:/

[JG1_Pragr]

I don't mind if other players shoot and down planes in MP that I have made smoking.

 

But imho other ppl shooting at planes that burn is blatant kill stealing. Unfortunately the game engine only takes into account who set the last shot and not who did the decisive damage. As long as it is just grey smoke even if it was me to make the engine stop in a few minutes I am fine but planes that obviously are doomed like burning planes should be given to that player who did this and not who set the last shot. So my request would be to take burning planes "out of the game" (similar to those which engine is dead) and give the kill to the person who set it to flames.

 

What I've seen so far once I flame enemy plane I'm credited with the kill. Often I can see that someone else is shooting on the plane I flamed but I get the kill. Still who cares?

[Y-29.Silky]

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn. Who really cares who gets the kill? Just think of it this way. Those idiots chasing down a burning enemy are just wasting their ammo, they're morons plain and simple. Unfortunately it's the internet with no real repercussions for being a really bad player. It's going to happen in any game with a scoring system based around the individual and not the team. I wait for a company or an individual to produce a game that promotes team play and not individual glory.

Agreed. But the devs are doing a good job in promoting teamplay with my examples above, please read them. I don't know how people think there is kill stealing in this game.. besides ground forces. They eliminated individual glory. My stories 3-5, people DO NOT have to bury their enemy into the ground, just combat ineffective, I think the swayed away from this a little bit though. They at least have to take away the ground forces kill count, because with how much they steal kills, the k/d must be God tier.

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

I think that in reality the guys made sure that a plane went down and stayed down..... it was a bad idea to let a plane limp home. You laid lead into it until the pilot bailed or it was destroyed.

 

I also don't think they messed around with who was there first or not, the main objective was to down as many planes as fast as possible and the longer you were stuck in a duel the more exposed you became to becoming a target yourself. If I see a shot lining up I get in there and take it and get the hell out of there and if someone helps do it faster then all the better for the team as a whole.... one less plane and pilot to worry about.

 

Guys calling foul and "killsteal" really should consider playing War Thunder where kills are points and kills matter to the individual.

[RydnDirty]

At the risk of sounding like one of those crazy CLOD fans. I have to say that clod nailed this. I don't  see people worry about kill stealing on CLOD. When you land You get a list of each plane you damaged and each specific mechanical system that was damaged. The kill is shared as a percentage to all who damaged systems on the plane. If you destroy the engine and moments later another guy damages one landing gear and the radio . you get the greater percentage....

 

It just means nobody worries about other guys shooting the planes they have already damaged and robbing them of the reward they deserved. 

 

Bottom line though is you know you shot him down and he knows it.  The scoring system will never be perfect and it wasn't in real life.

Edited November 21, 2014 by WillyZurmacht

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I don't really know what constitutes kill stealling but I really think that assist should be worth more or the kill is shared equally between people whom attacks it, in ww2 people would get awarded half a kill for example. The way it is atm angers me cause I will fly around tactically get really good shots into 3-4 planes just for some one to nip in and get the last shot and hence the kill, not having higher points for assists or shared kills just make me want to keep on the target instead if breaking off like a good pilot would and thus is detrimental to good team work and just encourages people to fly for themself creating horrible game play

[JG1_Pragr]

At the risk of sounding like one of those crazy CLOD fans. I have to say that clod nailed this. I don't  see people worry about kill stealing on CLOD. When you land You get a list of each plane you damaged and each specific mechanical system that was damaged. The kill is shared as a percentage to all who damaged systems on the plane. If you destroy the engine and moments later another guy damages one landing gear and the radio . you get the greater percentage....

 

It just means nobody worries about other guys shooting the planes they have already damaged and robbing them of the reward they deserved. 

 

Bottom line though is you know you shot him down and he knows it.  The scoring system will never be perfect and it wasn't in real life.

My experience from one year on CloD tells exact the opposite. Five, six pilots all shooting over the shoulder of each other, trying to get as much portion of kill as possible. And the credit system itself tells you, you got 1.56822456974 of kills... (figuraly, I know there are two digits only). I prefer the one in BoS. As I said I always got the credit for flaming enemy. Even if this one was then hit by another plane. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

With one or two exceptions I haven't felt my kills have been stolen very often. I chalk some up to teamwork even if it wasn't coordinated ahead of time but we used good tactics. AAA ground kills have occasionally been more frustrating than human steals.

Edited November 21, 2014 by HerrMurf

[sturmkraehe]

I don't mind so much not to get the kill but the other guy taking the glory without having done the work I mind. A bit like having a colleague presenting your glorious idea as his own to your boss ...

[Yakdriver]

what glory?
as soon as he leaves the servers, his "glory" is gone.

the "stat glory" during his presence on the server?
it's just a number. How he has obtained that... Number... nobody knows cold be he pulls Tarans on Heinkels because he is  a shafty pilot.

 

the analogy does not fit, as the Boss , in this case is the community, and the Community barely gives a Whoopdeedoop on who shoots down what. (The community cares about other elements...)

and the ideas presented to the Boss could lead to something big... Kills and stats and Statglory... lead to nothing at all.

These kinds of Pilots are barely better than trolls.
and trolls... you know what to feed them -  a big plate of "i ignore you"

[BFsSmurfy]

Objective based servers are the best place to play if you`re a team player, we had 3 IL2 servers at BFs , BF1 had more new player friendly settings, BF2 was a mix of locked pit and externals, and UK3 was locked pit, all servers ran missions where the objective was to destroy the ground units. We all had spells of "I`ve gotta get a monster score, kill streak etc etc" but eventually people came round to the idea of working as a team to clear the objectives. If the enemy loses a plane regardless of who does what it`s a result, who cares who fires the last shot. The only exception for that imo is the enemy has already lost a wing, tail etc etc, in which case that`s plain stats whoring and should be ridiculed.

[dkoor]

the game engine only takes into account who set the last shot

13 years sure footed nerve breaking and still going strong.

Objective based servers are the best place to play if you`re a team player, we had 3 IL2 servers at BFs , BF1 had more new player friendly settings, BF2 was a mix of locked pit and externals, and UK3 was locked pit, all servers ran missions where the objective was to destroy the ground units. We all had spells of "I`ve gotta get a monster score, kill streak etc etc" but eventually people came round to the idea of working as a team to clear the objectives. If the enemy loses a plane regardless of who does what it`s a result, who cares who fires the last shot. The only exception for that imo is the enemy has already lost a wing, tail etc etc, in which case that`s plain stats whoring and should be ridiculed.

BFs were one of the finest, you guys know how to set up a good game.

[senseispcc]

 Many real fighters from WW2 never got their  "right" kills number. Some lost ones some were over attributed.

 

In the RAF and FAFL/8th AF for which my grandfather flew they had to to prove their victories either by a witness or by a record.

 

They didnt care the goal was not to lose the war

Following this topic I must correct this: all kill claims in WW2 where over claimed! In all air battles or campaigns the numbers of planes lost by one side where always less than the planes claimed by the other side whatever the nations involved!

 

Now historians try to corroborate the claims with the effective losses recorded by the squadrons/gruppe/regiments by their archives. And sometimes the result is out from 10 to nil. So kill counting is in reality really something very inaccurate.

 

One last remark the same is true or ground forces.  

 

[ACG_pezman]

This is probably why the devs made the unlocks SP instead of MP based.