How many 20mm rounds can the IL-2 take?

[Y-29.Silky]

Was flying in the Syndicate server, put all my rounds into an IL-2 (without a rear gunner allowing me to freely take my time on his 6), I even hit him in his engine at point blank range almost causing a collision in the process. His water was leaking, as well as his oil; if it were real life, the pilot probably would have suffocated to death. But I was out of ammo, I saw him heading home so I broke off. Apparently he made it back to his far base (the enemy team didn't capture the forward airbase at the time), and I didn't get any credit. That's about a 3-4 minute flight (which is a long time in this game) with an engine billowing smoke so black, you could mistake it for a fire.

IL-2's were "tanks" sure, but they had their weak spots, especially the oil radiators, which was the case with the IL-2 they recently pulled out of a lake..

 

They can absorb so many rounds, I think it's kind of exaggerated in the game, especially knowing the IL-2 was the most shot down aircraft of the war.

[FuriousMeow]

Its not exaggerated at all. One engagement doesn't make a statement. I've encountered many Il-2s, and they go down quite easily. As a matter of fact, LuftWaffe pilots were happy to recieve the 30mm cannons for the 109s as they could put just a few into the Il2 and finally show them who was boss.

 

The Il-2s are very weak, dead 6 approach is the worst you can do. Always off set approaches. I've downed so many Il-2s I thought their durability was a myth.'

 

The radiator is below the Il-2, so you have to do a low 6 approach to damage it. But it doesn't instantly down the plane, that thing can keep going for another 10 to 20 minutes.

Edited November 20, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

9 minutes in.... German Pilots discussing it,

 

http://youtu.be/25UyIsAng1Q

[johncage]

hard to snipe when plane bobbing around. generally, the hit effect, shrapnels flying give you a feeling more damage is being done than is actually occurring. ignore the puffs and debris, just keep shooting until it's burning.

[Mabroc]

I just finished to read today:

The War Diary of Hauptmann Helmut Lipfert: JG 52 On the Russian Front • 1943-1945

http://www.schifferbooks.com/the-war-diary-of-hauptmann-helmut-lipfert-jg-52-on-the-russian-front-a-1943-1945-2169.html

 

And He flew against them practicably since arriving to the front and commented several times how durable the CEMENT AIRPLANE, as the pilots from his unit called it, were. Only as a seasoned pilot he was comfortably/experienced enough to shot down with ease (most of the time, with surprise) using only one 20mm cannon. He praised the 20mm gondolas when they got them, so the Me-109 "Gunboats" could finally kill them more easily.

When they got the 30mm Mk-108 equipped 109's He finally thought they have the right weapon to kill a Il-2 easily. Rarely he needed a second hit to finish any aircraft with the 30mm cannon. Usually one hit broke the fuselage, wing, make a big boom-flame-explosion, etc.

 

BUT...and a BIG one, he usually shoot at a very close range (sometimes less than 50m with the MK-108) and was a veteran pilot by then. He repeatedly comments on how lucky he was as a rookie doing stupid maneuvers, bad calls, shoting from afar, etc during combat that should have been a cause to be shot down easily. He survived, and learned, got better, grew skills, developed tactics and became an ace. As we all are now, well mostly.

 

We can just hit refly and become better pilots with each passing mission, no matter what happened on the previous one, so after several dozen combat mission we are like real life veterans really (in experience at least) and after after a couple hundreds we are aces. So killing ANYTHING become a piece of cake and we tend to think, HEY THAT AIRCRAFT IS NOT SO TOUGHT, I CAN TAKE IT.

 

Until we came against a human of similar skill as us piloting it. Then is a real challenge.

[SR-F_Winger]

My experience with the IL2 is that it can be so and so. I had encounters in wich it took almost all my ammo and others in wich it straight begun to burn.

Over all its a pretty tough bird and i am fine with that since it was built to take a beating.

The better my aim gets the easier they fall. Nothing wrong here imo.

I however think that all other bombers burn quite a bit too easy. One strave and a HE, PE-2 or JU-87 is burning. To torch them is far too easy.

Edited November 20, 2014 by VSG1_Winger

[Tyberan]

9 minutes in.... German Pilots discussing it,

 

http://youtu.be/25UyIsAng1Q

Thank you for linking this, the rest in the series are just as informative. Too bad doco's like this dont exist anymore.

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

Thanx mate... it's a great series that covers much of the air war of ww2 and I can't think of any other series where u get to see and listen to so many aces from all major countries involved in the conflict. Escpecially interviews of German, Japanese and Soviet aces are rare, and here they are in abundance.

And I agree,,, documentaries like these aren't, and I guess can't be, produced these days. Half hour shows on the major networks simplyfying history in order to fit everything in a 30 minutes just don't do it for me. 

Edited November 20, 2014 by SvAF/F19_Klunk

[II./JG77_Manu*]

He survived, and learned, got better, grew skills, developed tactics and became an ace. As we all are now, well mostly.

 

We can just hit refly and become better pilots with each passing mission, no matter what happened on the previous one, so after several dozen combat mission we are like real life veterans really (in experience at least) and after after a couple hundreds we are aces. So killing ANYTHING become a piece of cake and we tend to think, HEY THAT AIRCRAFT IS NOT SO TOUGHT, I CAN TAKE IT.

 

Until we came against a human of similar skill as us piloting it. Then is a real challenge.

 

i won't never ever call an online pilot "veteran" after "several dozen combat missions". In real life the mid-war (german) pilots had around 500 hours of flight education, before they even got to the front line. That would by the way be 500(!!!) missions, when you look at the duration alone. A lot of this training was target practice, they did it several hours a day. Let's say a virtual pilot needs 100 hours for the basics (landing, takeoff, taxi, stuff like that), (at least i needed around 100 hours for this stuff to be more or less "safe", when i started flight simming one year ago.) After that i make "several dozen" (50?) combat missions aka 50 hours of online flight simming and you call me veteran (after 150 hours?). Hartmann was almost 3 years in flight education training (don't know his exact flight hours), and after that he made 1.404 combat sorties. That's what i call an ace. After his first 100 sorties, (together with his training over 600 hours airborne) Hartmann had only 7 victories, hardly a veteran. I myself now have 500 hours of virtual aviation, and while i sometimes encounter other pilots, where i have little chance, most of the pilots make it very easy for me to kill them (no difference which side i fly), so i can only guess most of them are even more "rookies" or "beginners" then i am. I think there are not a lot of virtual pilots around in multiplayer, who you can call "veteran" or "ace" in the original meaning of the word (and i don't mean the american 5-kill "aces")

[JG1_Pragr]

...

IL-2's were "tanks" sure, but they had their weak spots, especially the oil radiators, which was the case with the IL-2 they recently pulled out of a lake..

...

It's interesting how many people mention the oil radiator. It was a weak spot no doubt. But particularly regarding to ground fire. It was not such problem in case of attacking fighter since most of these attacks were performed from above. More serious weak point was the tail section itself. Few hits from MG rounds were usually enough to cut the tail off. It was so weak that the construction company had to introduced the reinforcement made of steel T-profiles about one meter long attached to the fuselage in front of tail. It was during 1943 I think. 

 

Anyway I have to say that I experienced no problem with Il-2 destruction. Even if I used 109s with default armament. Actually based on my experience in BoS I see no reason why I should used the additional armament in any plane we have available right now. 

Edited November 20, 2014 by II./JG1_Pragr

[Yakdriver]

oh no... not just one meter!
4 T-profiles were attached to the fuselage, all around the fuselage. length was from the beginning of the wooden section almost down to the tailcone.

 

 

 

 

Think about it - if they hurried such a CRUDE reinforcement on the assembly lines...  like the Typhoon's and 109F's tail reinforcements... Then that means that it was urgently needed.

 

and if something urgently needed, then there is a big problem somewhere.

does that mean that one bullet can split the shtormo in two on a regular basis? does that mean that one cannon shell can make the tail assembly blow up time after time? that is up to someone else to check.
i personally doubt it.

[JG1_Pragr]

Thanks for correction my error. I don't know why I thought they were so short

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

9 minutes in.... German Pilots discussing it,

 

http://youtu.be/25UyIsAng1Q

 

Great movie .... thanks

 

Chief

[Yakdriver]

Thanks for correction my error. I don't know why I thought they were so short

be my guest - it is somethiing i have recently found in a french magazine, 50 pages of Shtormovik tech details :-)

[heinkill]

I fly exclusively IL2 or He111 online (suicide junky...)

 

In the IL2 I can usually survive one or two bursts from a 109/190 unless they hit my cockpit (me) or my fuel tank and set me on fire.

 

But 'survive' means I am usually trailing smoke, with multiple system failures and am lucky to stay aloft more than a few more minutes.

 

Trust me, if a 109 puts a couple of bursts of 20mm into my IL2, I may be able to get away, and I may escape the engagement, but I don't get far before I am looking for a nice flat patch of snow to belly into.

 

You are onto something though - if I am hit, and manage to land safely anywhere behind my own lines, the game doesn't seem to give the enemy player credit for a damaged/killed.

 

H

[II./JG77_Manu*]

I fly exclusively IL2 or He111 online (suicide junky...)

 

In the IL2 I can usually survive one or two bursts from a 109/190 unless they hit my cockpit (me) or my fuel tank and set me on fire.

 

But 'survive' means I am usually trailing smoke, with multiple system failures and am lucky to stay aloft more than a few more minutes.

 

Trust me, if a 109 puts a couple of bursts of 20mm into my IL2, I may be able to get away, and I may escape the engagement, but I don't get far before I am looking for a nice flat patch of snow to belly into.

 

You are onto something though - if I am hit, and manage to land safely anywhere behind my own lines, the game doesn't seem to give the enemy player credit for a damaged/killed.

 

H

 

in fact that is no kill. As long as your Il2 can be repaired after ditching into the snow (damage <50%, what i consider very likely) it wouldn't have been credited as a kill in real life either. Nothing wrong here you should get a percentage-reward like in CloD

[Mabroc]

i won't never ever call an online pilot "veteran" after "several dozen combat missions". In real life the mid-war (german) pilots had around 500 hours of flight education, before they even got to the front line. That would by the way be 500(!!!) missions, when you look at the duration alone. A lot of this training was target practice, they did it several hours a day. Let's say a virtual pilot needs 100 hours for the basics (landing, takeoff, taxi, stuff like that), (at least i needed around 100 hours for this stuff to be more or less "safe", when i started flight simming one year ago.) After that i make "several dozen" (50?) combat missions aka 50 hours of online flight simming and you call me veteran (after 150 hours?). Hartmann was almost 3 years in flight education training (don't know his exact flight hours), and after that he made 1.404 combat sorties. That's what i call an ace. After his first 100 sorties, (together with his training over 600 hours airborne) Hartmann had only 7 victories, hardly a veteran. I myself now have 500 hours of virtual aviation, and while i sometimes encounter other pilots, where i have little chance, most of the pilots make it very easy for me to kill them (no difference which side i fly), so i can only guess most of them are even more "rookies" or "beginners" then i am. I think there are not a lot of virtual pilots around in multiplayer, who you can call "veteran" or "ace" in the original meaning of the word (and i don't mean the american 5-kill "aces")

 

From December 1942 to end of the end of war Lipfert flew 687 combat mission and got 203 air victories. He arrived at the front in a brand new Bf-109G2 which he only got to fly a couple of hours for the first time before they send him to his unit from fighter training school. He wasn't so comfortably flying a model that he never got training in and admit the pilot training was a little short at that time already.

 

You are right about the hours needed (in peacetime) to learn all about flying. Flying in formation, understanding every instrument, blind flying, Shooting, dogfight, tactics, radio use, landings, emergency landing, night flying, etc. BUT nobody do that on a flight sim at that level (and not all of that stuff is simulated anyway). Everyone put some hours into training (if you just become a beginner to flight sims off course more) and get to know the new sim and go to flight combat missions offline or online.

 

So yes, I really think you get a lot more of experience on a "REAL" combat situation (you are getting shot at and trying to kill others) than in a safe training mission without enemies that shot back. You can learn a lot and fine tuning you skills and get the maximum of every aircraft and engine on those safe training missions, but it will take a lot more of real time. Meanwhile when you are fighting for your virtual life is more easy to make mistakes, push too much the engine, flight envelope, take for granted some enemy plane, burn the engine, etc and paid those mistake big time. But hey, you are immortal! And learn quickly how to overcome you failing and get better.

 

So, yes I still think that after maybe 30 combat missions (on the same plane) you are a veteran pilot of that model. You can do crazy things and risk your life a lot and died several times for that but learn at a rate no real pilot can because as I said, you are immortal.

 

And by the way Hartmann is not a good example of the average german ace pilot, he started as a gunner and as you mentioned was a really "slow" learner, he mastered it eventually and surpassed everyone else but many others reached ACE level flying way more quicker than him.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Mabroc