Ground handling

[JG1_Pragr]

I experience some strange ground behaviour of planes. First of all let me say I have experience with LW planes only. What I've experienced so far surprised me.

 

Fw 190 - usually there is no problem with taxiing the plane. Sometimes is tricky a bit but I can get where I want to be in 9 out of 10 cases.

 

Ju 87 - similar as 190, but more tricky from time to time. Sometimes is almost impossible to steer to right, so I steer to left instead. The plane turns left even with unlocking tail, full rudder and full right brake applies.

 

Bf 109s - the worst case definitely. I had not been able to steer or even taxiing straight, that I practically stopped to fly these planes. But the situation is more complicated here. I have no idea if this is a serious find or just coincidence but that's why I posted this thread:

 

- Single player experience. I tested it just once or twice. Spawn on AF with engine not running. Turn engine on, automatic pitch controller off, set pitch clocks to 12:30 and go. There is no problem to steer the plane to left or right or hold the straight heading. Locking the tail wheel makes the plane just less sensitive for steering inputs.

 

- Multiplayer. LD Heavy Metal server. That's the reason why I hated the 109. Spawn on AF, engine is running and plane ready to taxi (with locked tail). Unlocking the tail and try to taxi. No chance. Full rudder right, full right brake but plane is unable to hold straight and turns to the left still. Locking the tail. No difference. Pitch to 12:30 not help. What's even more strange, when I try to unlock the tail once again, the lock in cockpit move appropriate but the game issues the message "Tail wheel lock" again and again. According to the chat, I'm not the only one who has the problem with taxiing there. On the other hand I know there are people with no problem. 

 

- Multiplayer DED server. I tried it for the first time yesterday. Spawn on AF, with engine not running. Turn engine on, pitch to manual and 12:30, unlock the tail. And I could steer the 109 without any problem.

 

The only "visible" difference there, is the default state of the plane. Seems like when I have to turn on the engine, there is almost no problem with taxiing. As I said, I have no idea if it isn't just a coincidence, but the steering problem is more random than I thought. Does anyone have similar experience?

Edited November 19, 2014 by II./JG1_Pragr

[Pringliano]

Interesting findings...

 

Might it be because some of those servers are in Simple / Arcade mode?

 

I find them all irrealistically difficult to taxi.

[JG1_Pragr]

Both servers settings used "Expert" tag. If there is any particular difference in settings I have no idea.

[=LD=Penshoon]

I never use the tail wheel unlock, that just makes me ground loop tbh.

I just throttle up and use the elevator to control how much I need to steer, push the stick forward and you can turn on the spot with rudder and brakes. Pull the stick back and the plane stays on a straight course much easier as the wheel gets pressed into the snow.

Edited November 19, 2014 by =LD=Penshoon

[JG1_Pragr]

I know, that some guys from II./JG1 I fly with have no problem with taxiing on =LD= server. At least one of them used the same rudder pedals as myself. On the other hand at least one another guy has the same problem like me. That's why I said the problem is "random". 

 

Btw, the manual pitch setting helps a bit on Heavy Metal server. But only to some point. Many times it doesn't help neither. 

Edited November 19, 2014 by II./JG1_Pragr

[Pringliano]

It is not impossible at all. Some users also map their toe brakes and rudder to the pedals brake axis, and that makes it even easier...

 

The problem is that it is unrealistic the way it is modeled. Overall, propwash effects appear to become effective over the tail surfaces only at a higher speed, already during takeoff run. This should be efficient a LOT sooner.

 

Something that I really think needs a fix from the flight dynamics devs behind this project. 

[=LD=Penshoon]

The problem is that it is unrealistic the way it is modeled. Overall, propwash effects appear to become effective over the tail surfaces only at a higher speed, already during takeoff run. This should be efficient a LOT sooner.

 

Something that I really think needs a fix from the flight dynamics devs behind this project. 

This is incorrect, prop wash centres my elevators already at around 10-20% throttle, no airspeed needed at all. Ailerons need airspeed, I think they centre around 100kph. 

[Pringliano]

This is incorrect, prop wash centres my elevators already at around 10-20% throttle, no airspeed needed at all. Ailerons need airspeed, I think they centre around 100kph. 

 

Then, prop torque effects must be overdone... 

 

Also, elevator is not quite the problem here, but rather vertical fin and rudder!  

 

If you watch RW Fw190s, Bf109s, Spitfires, Hurricanes taxiing you will notice that they only use rudder for turning, probably added with brakes, toe or differential depending on aircraft... 

 

In IL2 BOS you can only relief right rudder application to turn left while taxiing... 

Edited November 19, 2014 by jcomm

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I never use the tail wheel unlock, that just makes me ground loop tbh.

I just throttle up and use the elevator to control how much I need to steer, push the stick forward and you can turn on the spot with rudder and brakes. Pull the stick back and the plane stays on a straight course much easier as the wheel gets pressed into the snow.

I'm doing this as You do.

[=LD=Penshoon]

Then, prop torque effects must be overdone... 

 

Also, elevator is not quite the problem here, but rather vertical fin and rudder!  

 

If you watch RW Fw190s, Bf109s, Spitfires, Hurricanes taxiing you will notice that they only use rudder for turning, probably added with brakes, toe or differential depending on aircraft... 

 

In IL2 BOS you can only relief right rudder application to turn left while taxiing... 

Doesn't prop torque only cause roll and not yaw?

 

Prop wash whirls air around your fuselage and pushes the tail to a certain direction depending on prop rotation. I though this was what caused the yaw. I wish there was some FFB rudder pedals so we could feel the effects at work. 

 

Do you use any curves/non-linearity on your rudder axis? This will mean you have to push your pedals much more than what you have to in reality. Try using a linear response and see if that improves ground handling for you. 

 

I remember when I started playing this most people agreed that ground handing was one of BOS strong points, what has changed?

[Pringliano]

Penshoon,

 

torque creates a moment, in this case a CCW moment since the prop rotates CW.  If the aircraft is flying, this translates into roll, and then also into yaw by coupling and other effects.

 

Propwash asymmetrically hitting the tail surfaces ( from the left in a CW rotating prop ), creates left yaw, and somehow compensates for the torque moment, because it hits the tail above the CoG.

 

But the torque from the engine / prop, while on ground, compresses the left gear, increasing it's contact with the surface and associated drag, and thus translating into the aircraft "wanting" to drift left.

 

This should be a factor when the throttle is increased ( while accelerating ), but most of the time the wash received by the tail surfaces, and the vertical fin and rudder, should contribute to it's authority, and to 

lessen the torque effects on the left drifting tendency. That's why you use sudden pushes of throttle IRL, to bring the tail up in efficiency when needed...

 

Since I do not own a FF equipment, I do use non linear throw on my rudder axis, because in RL I know, from my own experience, this axis is a lot stiffer than roll and pitch, under most circumstances and aircraft types.

 

The basis of BOS flight and overall physics modeling in BOS is certainly very good, powerful, and detailed, but there are aspects that need fine tuning. The unrealistic need to use permanent right rudder ( full most of the time ), while taxiing is certainly one of those aspects ( left rudder on some Russian fighters with CCW prop )...

 

Then there are those wobbling effect inflight, mostly noticeable in the Axis fighters, the tendency to "flick-roll" the Bf109 and the Fw190 when you push on the stick with the engine at cruise or higher power settings ( it is indeed not so pronounced if your at idle, or the engine is stopped... ).

 

Then there is the too coarse adjustments available for all trim axis. It received a correction in the Bf109 on the last patch, but it is still not good...

Edited November 19, 2014 by jcomm

[=LD=Penshoon]

I've never piloted any real aircraft some I might be totally wrong in how this would be felt IRL. 

Penshoon,

 

torque creates a moment, in this case a CCW moment since the prop rotates CW.  If the aircraft is flying, this translates into roll, and then also into yaw by coupling and other effects.

 

Propwash asymmetrically hitting the tail surfaces ( from the left in a CW rotating prop ), creates left yaw, and somehow compensates for the torque moment, because it hits the tail above the CoG.

 

But the torque from the engine / prop, while on ground, compresses the left gear, increasing it's contact with the surface and associated drag, and thus translating into the aircraft "wanting" to drift left.

 

This should be a factor when the throttle is increased ( while accelerating ), but most of the time the wash received by the tail surfaces, and the vertical fin and rudder, should contribute to it's authority, and to 

lessen the torque effects on the left drifting tendency. That's why you use sudden pushes of throttle IRL, to bring the tail up in efficiency when needed...

 

Since I do not own a FF equipment, I do use non linear throw on my rudder axis, because in RL I know, from my own experience, this axis is a lot stiffer than roll and pitch, under most circumstances and aircraft types.

 

The basis of BOS flight and overall physics modeling in BOS is certainly very good, powerful, and detailed, but there are aspects that need fine tuning. The unrealistic need to use permanent right rudder ( full most of the time ), while taxiing is certainly one of those aspects ( left rudder on some Russian fighters with CCW prop )...

Like you say when the prop wash hits the fuselage & tail surface from the left it makes the plane also yaw left. But it also pushes the rudder left as well making the plane counter the left yaw with right yaw by itself.

 

The thing is this force doesn't happen ingame with your rudder pedals as they are always centred in place by a mechanical spring and not by the aero forces like in IRL or with an FFB device. With FFB rudder pedals the centre position would be shifted to the right as you apply power in a CW prop and you would feel the yaw motion much easer and be able to counter it intuitively.

 

Hope I made any sense. 

Edited November 19, 2014 by =LD=Penshoon

[Pringliano]

Penshoon, I believe you mentioned the propwash would push / deflect  the rudder to the right, anyway, IRL, the axial wash is far superior to this lateral effect, and the rudder pretty much stays put... That's not what accounts for the countering of the left turning tendency...

Edited November 19, 2014 by jcomm

[=LD=Penshoon]

Penshoon, I believe you mentioned the propwash would push / deflect  the rudder to the right, anyway, IRL, the axial wash is far superior to this lateral effect, and the rudder pretty much stays put... That's not what accounts for the countering of the left turning tendency...

Yes I meant it would be deflected to the right, I just wrote wrong in the post above. 

 

I was wrong in my assumption if it's like you say. Will keep my moth shut in the future in regards to things I'm just guessing myself to 

[Pringliano]

No,

 

your remarks are perfectly valid, although there are a lot of additional factors into play.

 

When we watch movies of this type of prop aircraft taxiing it becomes evident that something is wrong though, overdone.

 

Any way, I still thing that BOS FDM core is certainly an excellent, fully featured one, with lot's of potential, specially if access to air data is available.

Edited November 19, 2014 by jcomm

[andyw248]

- Multiplayer. LD Heavy Metal server. That's the reason why I hated the 109. Spawn on AF, engine is running and plane ready to taxi (with locked tail). Unlocking the tail and try to taxi. No chance. Full rudder right, full right brake but plane is unable to hold straight and turns to the left still. Locking the tail. No difference. Pitch to 12:30 not help.

 

I haven't been on the LD Heavy Metal server, and don't have time to try right now, but could there be a crosswind from the left?

[Y-29.Silky]

The G-2 is impossible to turn right, no matter what you do!

[JG1_Pragr]

I disagree. Sometimes it works without any serious problem. Sometimes not. I'm unable to determine the exact reason yet. Yesterday I tried it twice and was able to steer right with G-2 though my tail wheel was locked. I need to note that the steering radius was relatively wide and I hold some speed to do so. Which is problem on some servers, where I spawn in between planes, hangars, trucks dumps etc.

[150GCT_Veltro]

I disagree. Sometimes it works without any serious problem. Sometimes not. I'm unable to determine the exact reason yet. Yesterday I tried it twice and was able to steer right with G-2 though my tail wheel was locked. I need to note that the steering radius was relatively wide and I hold some speed to do so. Which is problem on some servers, where I spawn in between planes, hangars, trucks dumps etc.

 

+1, same here.

 

I think there's somenthing broken when we turning right.

Edited November 20, 2014 by 150GCT_Veltro

[LAL_Luny]

+1 cant turn rihgt with the g2 whatever i do with toe brakes and rudder and tail wheel lock. I have no diificulties with the f4 and 190

 

I usually end up doing 270° on the left to do a 90° on the right

Also there is a lot of wind on LD server, tested with other planes : you feel it but not as much as on the G2 (Kalach is the worst airport for me)

[150GCT_Veltro]

I'm getting very bad feedback about this problem (right turn) from my comrades, this problem should have to be a priority to investigate in, or some people will give it up i'm afraid.

 

Difficult, impegnative...is fine...but impossibile is not, G2 first of all..

Edited November 21, 2014 by 150GCT_Veltro

[6S.Manu]

I'm getting very bad feedback about this problem (right turn) from my comrades, this problem should have to be a priority to investigate in, or some people will give it up i'm afraid.

 

Difficult, impegnative...is fine...but impossibile is not, G2 first of all..

Good to know. My guys insulted me after I rage quit because of this issue (I had the G2 while they had the F4).

[150GCT_Veltro]

...what i'm talking about....people quit in a bad way.

 

@Zak?

[Italo]

I think is problem due to the wind, not to torque, tail wheel or so.

In fact, if you look at the windsock you will notice two tings:

-First, the plane tends to put the "nose to wind". In that case if you try to turn right in windsock direction it will be easy!

-Second, in the servers when this problem happen the windsock is very tense to indicate that the wind is set very high.

 

It occurred also in IL2 1946 since the introduction of the wind in MOD option. Infact, in the ground handling the sim's are unable to consider the force of the slipstream on vertical rudder. In BoS the physics is much improved compared to old IL2 or similar, BUT, in all the sims, the behavior of the planes "on ground" is modeled separately due to a simulation limit.

 

IMHO it will be hard to solve this problem.

[Pringliano]

It's there even if in the QMP you set wind at 0m/s

[senseispcc]

For your information the La-5 has the same ground handling problems when landing or just after landing decelerating! And in taxiing you need 3 hands?!    

[BlackDevil]

Dont want to repeat myself:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/12379-fw190-ground-handling-still-difficult/

 

and about LD server mission:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11977-loose-deuce-heavy-metal-server/page-2

[150GCT_Veltro]

Dont want to repeat myself:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/12379-fw190-ground-handling-still-difficult/

 

and about LD server mission:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11977-loose-deuce-heavy-metal-server/page-2

 

Manual pro-pitch for G2 seems to be a good solution, but i need some more tests and feedback from the other guys.

Edited November 22, 2014 by 150GCT_Veltro

[andyw248]

For your information the La-5 has the same ground handling problems when landing or just after landing decelerating! And in taxiing you need 3 hands?!    

 

Well that's surprising, as you seem to fly the La-5 every day. So do I, and I thought it has the best ground handling characteristics of all the planes. Easy to taxi without any need to use the brakes (unless you go too fast and have to slow it down); ability to turn with application of just rudder and power; can be taxied without brakes even in a moderate crosswind; easy rollout after landing when applying small but quick rudder input, and braking only when the rudders are straight. That's how it feels to me (disclaimer - I do have rudder pedals, and I do have the brakes mapped to a lever on my joystick).

[150GCT_Veltro]

Manual pro-pitch does work definetely better with G2.

 

However we need more clear space to taxi. Mission designers should have to clear the airifields around the parking area, trucks, static aircrafts ecc. ecc.

Edited November 24, 2014 by 150GCT_Veltro

[andyw248]

If you have trouble taxiing or keeping the aircraft straight after landing you may as well want to watch Requiem's latest video - nothing to add. The video is at: http://youtu.be/cMwDXeys5yY.

[JG1_Pragr]

Requiem's video is fine. It's really good for basic information. But it doesn't solve the problem of taxiing with 109s under certain circumstances. As someone noticed here the La-5 is one of most "user friendly" planes in terms of ground handling. 

 

More experience I have with G-2 more I tend to agree that the problem is environmental specific. It means you need hold relatively high speed to be able to steer right. At least if there is a considerable wind from bad direction (in relation to your spawn point). Add few ground objects around and you have mission impossible to get the plane to runway. 

[Y-29.Silky]

Forgot about the wind factor, and the wind speed in the Syndicate server is absolutely ridiculous.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Silky

[150GCT_Veltro]

"Bug" or not, we need more space to handling, this for sure. I hope they could check this problem, but now we can only work on manual pitch and speed to taxi straight before steer right.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

I have a question on taxiing the Me-110.  It seems to pull to the left really bad.  Normal or something I am overlooking?

[Jade_Monkey]

I think its the torque. Just apply some brake on the right.

[andyw248]

Correct, it's torque because both props are rotating in the same direction.

 

If you have a throttle quadrant it's very easy to taxi twin engine aircraft by:

• Setting up throttle levers for engine 1 and engine 2
• When in mission, hit the "0" key to activate split engine operation
• When taxiing, apply a tiny little more power to the left engine, maybe ~100 RPM more, than to the right engine; this will compensate for torque and allow you to steer the plane as usual with differential brakes

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

I have the right rudder to the metal and using right toe brake and it will go straight but I have fight it the entire time.  Slightest little slip up and I go off the taxi way about an inch and sortie over.

Edited December 23, 2015 by MrStick