Still no answers on 64-bit.

[VeryOldMan]

Seriously, stop being so obtuse about 64-Bit. It won't happen "Just because". You use a 64-Bit executable when you have a GENUINE need to address a larger portion of the RAM, something extremely few games do these days. It's not a matter of opening up the .exe in Notepad++ and finding the field that says "64-Bit: 0" and changing that to a one. It actually requires extensive coding and an overhaul of some core engine features which can take quite a bit of time. Why the hell would that allocate that amount of time when the game HAS NO NEED for it and they are trying to build a solid core flyer with an engine they already have in place? There's is zero parallels to be drawn here with refusal to upgrade an OS, because that is your prerogative and developers won't actually give a toss. Creating a 64-Bit .exe for a game that isn't even coded in the first place to take advantage of a larger pool is a colossal waste of time.  

 

This entire thing is just based in ignorance and because 64-Bit sounds nice. 

 

 

In fact, when a  software is  made with good engineering practices and  not too much  fancy tricks based on illusory  theories of gain of performance, its rather simple to port a 32 bit application into  a 64 bit one ( considering C++, since its used for 90% of the AAA titles).

 

 

Its not  as simple to  dismiss it,    in fact  most 32 bit games  face serious restrictiosn on the art department exaclty in order to keep resources small enough to fit in 2 GB of data.  Increasing the size of textures  and preloadign data is soemthing that in most  well implemented sytems, woudl be easy to extend.

64 Bit will only allow for more objects and preloading of terrain etc...  Currently DCS has 64 bit capability.  Textures are a function of the Video card not the OS until something revolutionary comes out like the new Maxwell Architecture from Nvidia.  64 Bit also makes software more complex.  They chose 32 bit for now because they have to get a product out in short order and they already had a very capable engine.  To create a new 64 bit engine or to upgrade to DX11 adds a lot of time to development.  Hence CLOD and DX10.  I'm sure none of these technologies are off the table for future releases but for now we are where we are.  Most Combat Flight Sims we have now are still DX9 and OpenGL for old IL2.   They need to be successful for us to see new tech any time soon.

 

 

Textures  are not  only in the video card. No game can fit all its textures in a video card, because a large past of the video memory being used in PBuffers and  render targets used as intermediate shader passes.    Textures are loaded from disk into memory, then feed to the video card when they are to be used, sometimes brought back from video card to memory for processing, then sent back etc...

 

That is independent of beign DX 9 or DX 11.

[Bearcat]

I think the key point here is that RoF is 32-bit, and updating the software to the extent of actually getting any significant benefit from 64-bit may well have been seen as not worth the effort in the time available. Sure, the existing software could have been recompiled as 64-bit, but that on its own might not have achieved a great deal - and would have inevitably hurt sales.

 

Not to mention that they are trying to stick to their word as far as a schedule goes.. I am sure they last thing they want to do is not release BoS close to the time frame they have set for themselves. I think following up on time and within goal is more important to this project than adding the option for 64bit at the moment and as has been stated Jason said on more than one occasion that they would consider upgrading to 64 bit in the future if necessary/feasible.

 

also... guys .. let's just all kind of back off for a second and ratchet things down a tad before it gets out of hand.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

Eventually industry will switch over to 64-bit, like it or not. Seems DICE is already doing it. Others will follow. I have no clue how BoS would benefit, but going 64-bit at some point should not be neglected or pushed too far. We mostly have 64-bit OS' s and hardware capable of it too so why not use it? Or is it just useless resistance on anything new? Maybe some real life application 32 vs 64-bit comparison would help to give an idea?

[VeryOldMan]

S!

 

Eventually industry will switch over to 64-bit, like it or not. Seems DICE is already doing it. Others will follow. I have no clue how BoS would benefit, but going 64-bit at some point should not be neglected or pushed too far. We mostly have 64-bit OS' s and hardware capable of it too so why not use it? Or is it just useless resistance on anything new? Maybe some real life application 32 vs 64-bit comparison would help to give an idea?

 

 

On the absolute majority of cases is the fear of loosing  that  small share of 32 bit users that  hold the companies.  it may look that 5% is not much, but 5% difference in profits can be the difference between  a sequel and cancelation.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

So useless resitance and unwillingness to upgrade to what majority uses dictates decisions Let's all buy DX 9 cards and computers with 2Gb RAM and WinXP..

[AndyJWest]

S!

 

 ...I have no clue how BoS would benefit...

 

...but you are going to insist that it has to be done anyway?

[VeryOldMan]

S!

 

So useless resitance and unwillingness to upgrade to what majority uses dictates decisions Let's all buy DX 9 cards and computers with 2Gb RAM and WinXP..

 

 

It snot about how much memory your computer can handle, but how much emmory can be  heap allocated by EACH process running.  Even on a 64 bit operatign system, with 40 GB ram, a 32 bit process cannot use more than 2 GB adressing space on the heap

[AndyJWest]

Is there actually any evidence that RoF suffers as a result of lack of addressable memory? As far as I'm aware, the real bottlenecks are CPU power, and possibly bandwidth in multiplayer. Increasing the amount of data without increasing throughput will do nothing but slow everything down...

Edited September 11, 2013 by AndyJWest

[VeryOldMan]

Is there actually any evidence that RoF suffers as a result of lack of addressable memory? As far as I'm aware, the real bottlenecks are CPU power, and possibly bandwidth in multiplayer. Increasing the amount of data without increasing throughput will do nothing but slow everything down...

 

 

Easy to "Guess"Check  size of the  game resouerces. IF its larger than 2GB.. than it could be   more of them preloaded in memory.    About ANY  game made on last  8 years have enough  data  and resources that they could bennefit from a preemptive load approach  and  enjoy more  memory usage.

 

Worth the effort? That is a much more complex question,  but as  aprofessional I would NEVER  implement a 32 bit  software again for PC without a explicit order from the marketing department.

[Sim]

Keep in mind that modern software depends on a bunch of other third party libraries. If one of the libs doesn't have a 64-bit binary available (or can't be recompiled for 64-bit) - you are stuck. You may need to rewrite that engine part to use another library. So for all we know, there could be some legacy third party lib blocking/preventing a quick BoS migration to 64-bit.

 

Was there an official answer from the devs? I remember the devs said they will investigate 64-bit possibility in one of the early dev diaries, but that's it.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Sim

[VeryOldMan]

Keep in mind that modern software depends on a bunch of other third party libraries. If one of the libs doesn't have a 64-bit binary available (or can't be recompiled for 64-bit) - you are stuck. You may need to rewrite that engine part to use another library. So for all we know, there could be some legacy third party lib blocking/preventing a quick BoS migration to 64-bit.

 

Was there an official answer from the devs? I remember the devs said they will investigate 64-bit possibility in one of the early dev diaries, but that's it.

 

 

That is real, although a rare situation nowadays.

[Capt_Stubing]

In fact, when a  software is  made with good engineering practices and  not too much  fancy tricks based on illusory  theories of gain of performance, its rather simple to port a 32 bit application into  a 64 bit one ( considering C++, since its used for 90% of the AAA titles).

 

 

Its not  as simple to  dismiss it,    in fact  most 32 bit games  face serious restrictiosn on the art department exaclty in order to keep resources small enough to fit in 2 GB of data.  Increasing the size of textures  and preloadign data is soemthing that in most  well implemented sytems, woudl be easy to extend.

 

 

Textures  are not  only in the video card. No game can fit all its textures in a video card, because a large past of the video memory being used in PBuffers and  render targets used as intermediate shader passes.    Textures are loaded from disk into memory, then feed to the video card when they are to be used, sometimes brought back from video card to memory for processing, then sent back etc...

 

That is independent of beign DX 9 or DX 11.

 

 

That is true but it's done behind the scenes minimally if you're texture swapping you will get Studdering... Certainly more memory the better but pushing textures across the bus is very slow even with the newer ports.  Most devs will preload scenes as much as possible.  They also tend to reuse textures even in different parts of an area to keep from swapping to memory.  Anyways

[Freycinet]

The developers of this sim probably aren't complete idiots and have probably made an analysis of the pros and cons of using either 32- or 64-bit. How about showing them a modicum of respect and trust that they have made a well-thought-out choice in the light of all relevant factors, many of which are not available to the forum Kommentariat..

[APIKalimba]

I am no expert, but it would be logical to conclude that if BOS is successful, 64 bit "conversion" would be the next step for their next engine upgrade.

Timeframe is THE  issue Jason has always talked about regarding the making of BOS and having a financial success....

So it also seems also logical they upgraded ROF engine for BOS  keeping in mind the deadline...not enough time to port it to 64 bit I presume...

[ACG_Kraut]

Man, I don't know why I bought 16gigs of RAM, almost nothing uses all of it.

[Bearcat]

I bought 32...

[Recon]

64 Bit will only allow for more objects and preloading of terrain etc...  Currently DCS has 64 bit capability.  Textures are a function of the Video card not the OS until something revolutionary comes out like the new Maxwell Architecture from Nvidia.  64 Bit also makes software more complex.  They chose 32 bit for now because they have to get a product out in short order and they already had a very capable engine.  To create a new 64 bit engine or to upgrade to DX11 adds a lot of time to development.  Hence CLOD and DX10.  I'm sure none of these technologies are off the table for future releases but for now we are where we are.  Most Combat Flight Sims we have now are still DX9 and OpenGL for old IL2.   They need to be successful for us to see new tech any time soon.

 

+1  

[Sim]

Man, I don't know why I bought 16gigs of RAM, almost nothing uses all of it.

 

I bought 32...

 

 

One option would be to use that extra RAM for a RAM drive (see RAMDisk for example).

Edited September 12, 2013 by Sim

[VeryOldMan]

The developers of this sim probably aren't complete idiots and have probably made an analysis of the pros and cons of using either 32- or 64-bit. How about showing them a modicum of respect and trust that they have made a well-thought-out choice in the light of all relevant factors, many of which are not available to the forum Kommentariat..

 

 

No one is disrespectign the devs.  Just a fact that anyoen in devlopment  industry  knows,  somethign being correct on a technical   standpoint  doe snot mean it will be made, because most decisions are made by people that are not technical people.

Man, I don't know why I bought 16gigs of RAM, almost nothing uses all of it.

 

 

And why woudl you want to use ALL of it?  If youwere using  almost all of it then you shoudl be buyign more ram. As soon as any normal operation on my system reaches 85% of my memory, I put a postit to remember me to buy more ram. Any software usign swap is a  performance disaster.

[Sethos]

The developers of this sim probably aren't complete idiots and have probably made an analysis of the pros and cons of using either 32- or 64-bit. How about showing them a modicum of respect and trust that they have made a well-thought-out choice in the light of all relevant factors, many of which are not available to the forum Kommentariat..

 

Well said. 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

@AndyJWest..do not do wild guesses what I insist or think, please. I merely stated that BoS might get 64-bit if devs so decide. They propably should not neglect it or postpone it too long either. And I bet they know this and have it thought out. So wishing BoS will succeed and MAYBE get 64-bit. What I do think is that why in the hell do we have all the fancy hardware if still have to use 32-bit?

 

So shall see what will happen...either way bought BoS premium package regardless of "bit version". Pun intended.