Mac_Messer Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Actual CloD 8??? mate be sincere CloD is a flat 5 in all aspects even with TF patches IMO CloD + TF patches is 7 to 8. The thing I don`t like about it is that it never got the coop features like in IL2. Thing is, BoS doesn`t have that either, and the unlocks make the buy a no-go for me.
steppenwolf Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Many people had enough sense not to buy this game early. That doesn't mean we aren't interested, or have the right to have an opinion on it. 1
Mysticpuma Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) IMO CloD + TF patches is 7 to 8. The thing I don`t like about it is that it never got the coop features like in IL2. Thing is, BoS doesn`t have that either, and the unlocks make the buy a no-go for me. You can play Co-Op in Cliffs of Dover though: http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7029 Edited November 11, 2014 by Mysticpuma
tovarisch Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 S! I agree devs did a LOT of GOOD work in really short time. They have awesome kudos of doing this! But im very concerned about their decisions on game design. And those are not related about labor time imo. If they change them in the future, i will be pleasure to kudos them also! Bos is already a great game...and the forum is everyday more alive. Passion and critics is good...it means it is alive. I am sure there is a long way to improve it...but the baby has born safe at least, and he looks strong....and I love the graphics and landscape.
76SQN-FatherTed Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 What I want to know is where is this CFS that has the FMs and graphics of BoS and that also has a ton of stuff going on on the ground? A lot of people seem to find the "sterility" of BoS "unacceptable". This would be a reasonable point of view if there were another game which manages this combination.
Mac_Messer Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 It's fine to make comparisons. Just don't use Cliffs of Dover as an example. Unless it's an example of what not to do. Then why are you posting here if you don't own the game?! Maybe if a demo like RoF pops up I might give it a try. I sure as hell won`t steal it. So viewing people`s opinions is as much as I can do at this time. Same can be said just about any newcomer looking to buy and asking around, not really a reason for such a kneejerk reaction.
avlSteve Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Ever spotted artillery in the midst of the wilderness? They are set up in a perfect straight line, again "as if someone had programmed it with a computer"... you just need to strafe once and they are done... No trenches or truck tracks to and away from the guns, just 4 dots in a perfect line. It kills every immersion. Imho one of BoS biggest letdowns is the map (not the clouds and the lighting, they look great), it looks just a bit like you fly in a clean vacuum with no soul or signs of vividness. What does straight line have to do with a computer? It can draw whatever shape it's told. This is stuff that will surely be improved over time, right? These and the ten thousand other details that we want to be perfect.
Dakpilot Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 'Imho one of BoS biggest letdowns is the map (not the clouds and the lighting, they look great), it looks just a bit like you fly in a clean vacuum with no soul or signs of vividness.' Not being picky but is that not actually the Mission and not the Map, I know dogfight missions were called maps but is it not the mission file that populates the Map to give it "life" Cheers Dakpilot
SharpeXB Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Maybe if a demo like RoF pops up I might give it a try. I sure as hell won`t steal it. So viewing people`s opinions is as much as I can do at this time. Same can be said just about any newcomer looking to buy and asking around, not really a reason for such a kneejerk reaction.Agree they should make a demo version. That's always a help for complex games like these 'Imho one of BoS biggest letdowns is the map (not the clouds and the lighting, they look great), it looks just a bit like you fly in a clean vacuum with no soul or signs of vividness.' Not being picky but is that not actually the Mission and not the Map, I know dogfight missions were called maps but is it not the mission file that populates the Map to give it "life" Cheers Dakpilot It's actually a bold move to set the game in winter like this. With the inevitable white out. As far as snow covered steppes go it's quite attractive. I believe it's certain that other seasons get added eventually.
VRPilot Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 late autum would be great. Dirt, mud, mud and mud everywhere with little snow here and there
JG4_Sputnik Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) What does straight line have to do with a computer? It can draw whatever shape it's told. This is stuff that will surely be improved over time, right? These and the ten thousand other details that we want to be perfect. What I meant is that it doesn't look like actual people were involved in placing the guns. No randomness, no accidents just pure maths or algorithms. Every time the same damn line. Not even german SS would have had that kind of discipline... Edited November 11, 2014 by JG4_Sputnik
79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 What I meant is that it doesn't look like actual people were involved in placing the guns. No randomness, no accidents just pure maths or algorithms. Every time the same damn line. Not even german SS would have had that kind of discipline... As AvlSteve said, a computer will make any line you tell it to. Suggest to the developers they put in some crooked lines here and there, not always four perfectly evenly spaced guns in a straight line. The same thing was the case in old IL2 too. Perhaps it really is a limitation of the game engine, or it is just one of the many short-cuts the developers had to make to get the game ready in time.
Vaxxtx Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 What I want to know is where is this CFS that has the FMs and graphics of BoS and that also has a ton of stuff going on on the ground? A lot of people seem to find the "sterility" of BoS "unacceptable". This would be a reasonable point of view if there were another game which manages this combination. One exmample that I would love to see in BoS. You can also look for many more in 1946. Graphics in that of course not as pretty, but plenty going on the ground. Would like to see BoS do something similar sooner rather than later.
79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Only straight lines! Not one step back comrades! I just went and suggested some slight variation over at the developers assistance section. Perhaps they'll have a look at it, perhaps not, but we can't expect improvements if we don't suggest any.
GP* Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Bos is already a great game...and the forum is everyday more alive. Passion and critics is good...it means it is alive. I am sure there is a long way to improve it...but the baby has born safe at least, and he looks strong....and I love the graphics and landscape. Sadly, the forum has started to decline, both in terms of overall participation and thread topics (ie far more threads about technical issues and game decisions than excited ones about immersive aspects, favorite planes, BFM or ground attack strategies, etc). 1
JG4_Sputnik Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 I just went and suggested some slight variation over at the developers assistance section. Perhaps they'll have a look at it, perhaps not, but we can't expect improvements if we don't suggest any. good one, thanks.
76SQN-FatherTed Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 One exmample that I would love to see in BoS. You can also look for many more in 1946. Graphics in that of course not as pretty, but plenty going on the ground. Would like to see BoS do something similar sooner rather than later. Il2 46 is irrelevant to my argument. People seem to be demanding BoS/CloD FMs/DMs/graphics with '46 content - it just isn't possible at the moment. To my mind CloD proved that. CloD is not a benchmark for current CFSs coz it didn't work. If it had have done we'd all be playing it now.
No601_Prangster Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 Ever spotted artillery in the midst of the wilderness? They are set up in a perfect straight line, again "as if someone had programmed it with a computer"... you just need to strafe once and they are done.. Tell that to the Red Army! 1
=CFC=Conky Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) The original IL2, even in it's 1946 iteration, did not have that much air or ground action going on in the Dgen based stuff. It wasn't until the source code was opened up that the the variety and amount of content exploded and even then, in order to get prangs with lots of air and ground content, you have to build them yourself. Oh, I agree with the review for the most part, although I'd give BoS an overall rating of 7.5/10 Edited November 12, 2014 by CFC_Conky
DD_bongodriver Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 Tell that to the Red Army! April 1945, those guys were probably having picnics wishing they even saw a German aircraft.
No601_Prangster Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 OK how about this battery at Kursk 1943. Or Kiev 1943 2
Bearcat Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 Correction. WAS a 9.5 Now it's about a 2. A champion that badly needs to be retired... I dunno Sharpe.. taken on uit's own merits and as dated as it is I would still give IL2 46 a 9.5/10 jesus, why we can't compare sims each other???? they have planes, they have FM, they have AI, they have 3d models, they have related sounds, they have landscape, they have cockpit, they have ground units, they have clouds, they have sky, they have forests, they have, controls setup, you fly them with joysticks, they have ballistics, they have engine management, they have bomb explosions, they have HUD, they have campaign, they have multiplayer, they have bugs, they have camera views, they have difficult settings, they focused in the same war, they even share the same brand, they ARE COMBAT FLIGHT SIMULATORS!!!!! You can even compare Warbirds with Bos if you want to and do it wisely and carefully! You can even compare orange with banana if you do wisely! I see no problem at all with comparing sims.. in fact what else can you compare a sim to but another sim even if one is not as good as another (say for instance in the case of WoP vs BoS) regardless to why one is better than the other.. IMO CloD + TF patches is 7 to 8. The thing I don`t like about it is that it never got the coop features like in IL2. Thing is, BoS doesn`t have that either, and the unlocks make the buy a no-go for me. I would give CoD a 7 as well... but it does have Coops.. Agree they should make a demo version. That's always a help for complex games like these It's actually a bold move to set the game in winter like this. With the inevitable white out. As far as snow covered steppes go it's quite attractive. I believe it's certain that other seasons get added eventually. I can see BoS being something like RoF in around 4 years or so or after a few add ons come out.. Possibly with a free two plane version with the small map. Bear in mind that when RoF was released in May of 09 it could only be flown with a connection and everyone hated it (the fact that it had no offline mode at the time) ... it is still here, being supported and better than ever. I have absolutely no doubt that whatever the deficiencies are in BOS at the moment most of them will be addressed. No sim will ever be 100% acceptable by 100% of the sim crowd but BoS will improve over time. These guys have a plan and the sim is in good hands. All we have to do is give it a chance. Sadly, the forum has started to decline, both in terms of overall participation and thread topics (ie far more threads about technical issues and game decisions than excited ones about immersive aspects, favorite planes, BFM or ground attack strategies, etc). This is to be expected after the sim is released and it continues to be developed and tweaked. CoD certainly has a lot of nice ground objects. But they spent 7 years making that game and went bankrupt. So it's not a good example. Plus the effect is spoiled by the fact that there are no people anywhere. Just empty trucks and tractors driving themselves around. BoS has a better balance of features overall. I'm sure there will be plenty of third party modeling of objects in the future. RoF added horse drawn carts and such which are really neat. That is irrelevant really. Looking at it honestly and totally objectively... what other high fidelity dedicated WWII sim can we compare BoS to? There is none. DCS is nice .. but at this stage it is not a dedicated WWII sim.. it is a modern era sim with vintage warplanes in it. WoP and WT in the minds of most are great flying games but do not offer the things that most who consider themselves simmers want or need in a desired vehicle for their chosen past time. IL2.. the King.. is still very enjoyable. While dated in many categories it still offers much that is unavailable in any other product on the market. So making comparisons is natural and it is a good thing. What is annoying and detrimental to our genre is when people take all these comments and opinions personally or state their own opinions in a way that becomes antagonistic and offensive as opposed to matter of factly and constructive. This is something that must change. It must change. No time like now..... 1
SharpeXB Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 OK how about this battery at Kursk 1943. Or Kiev 1943 Soldiers have stood in straight lines since Ancient Greece. Besides anyone who takes one step back will be shot!
unreasonable Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 OK how about this battery at Kursk 1943. Or Kiev 1943 Good post - here is one of the germans doing it too:
79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 Tell that to the Red Army! The line isn't perfectly straight, and it's more than four guns.
unreasonable Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 You need to take into account context as well when criticizing the artillery layout. If the guns are not going to be in one place for long, having them grouped together in a straight line has great advantages in terms of fire control and ammo resupply. By this stage in the war the soviets would mass thousands of guns at a breakthrough point, often in excess of one gun per metre of the designated breakthrough front. They simply did not care that much if the occasional aircraft made it through the fighter screen. In a situation where the guns would be static, they would be more likely to be dispersed a little and obviously better dug in. IMHO the map needs more artillery positions and trench lines. It could also do with a "road" over the Volga with trucks and carts moving supplies into the city. The other point is the trees. I am willing to accept that the tree cover on the map is a fair representation of what the area would have been like if there had been no battle. But there were a couple of million men in the vicinity over the usual population, all freezing their nuts off . How much firewood wood would that many men consume per day? I suspect that a map that had only tree stumps within 5-10km of the front would be a better representation.
=LD=dhyran Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 IL2 the King.. is still very enjoyable. While dated in many categories it still offers much that is unavailable in any other product on the market. This is meant as a joke isn't it? ...... oh my! There are some others that had some more goodies in their pocket like the arena and netcode of AH2, which allowed over 300 players in scanarios at one time ...... So making comparisons is natural and it is a good thing. What is annoying and detrimental to our genre is when people take all these comments and opinions personally or state their own opinions in a way that becomes antagonistic and offensive as opposed to matter of factly and constructive. This is something that must change It must change. No time like now..... will second that for 100%! But it also means that a personal point of view is allowed! I still see the review as unfair, because there is no real comparison Additional it doesent make sense allways deleting my personal critic as a comparsion on Clod here! Maybe that would be a good point to start at! Like i wrote before, Clod simply doesen't work for all of us. It didn't work on the first day, and still with all TF mods, its crash al night long! Not playable on my side!
79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 The other point is the trees. I am willing to accept that the tree cover on the map is a fair representation of what the area would have been like if there had been no battle. But there were a couple of million men in the vicinity over the usual population, all freezing their nuts off . How much firewood wood would that many men consume per day? I suspect that a map that had only tree stumps within 5-10km of the front would be a better representation. Good point! Perhaps suggest this over at the developers assistance section?
Bearcat Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 ............. IL2.. the King.. is still very enjoyable. While dated in many categories it still offers much that is unavailable in any other product on the market. This is meant as a joke isn't it? ...... oh my! There are some others that had some more goodies in their pocket like the arena and netcode of AH2, which allowed over 300 players in scanarios at one time So making comparisons is natural and it is a good thing. What is annoying and detrimental to our genre is when people take all these comments and opinions personally or state their own opinions in a way that becomes antagonistic and offensive as opposed to matter of factly and constructive. This is something that must change. It must change. No time like now..... will second that for 100%! But it also means that a personal point of view is allowed! I still see the review as unfair, because there is no real comparison Additional it doesent make sense allways deleting my personal critic as a comparsion on Clod here! Maybe that would be a good point to start at! Like i wrote before, Clod simply doesen't work for all of us. It didn't work on the first day, and still with all TF mods, its crash al night long! Not playable on my side! This is a classic example of exactly the kinds of posts that add nothing to a discussion and only serve to antagonize... Why do I have to be joking? Of course I am not joking. We are having a serious discussion, one that I am doing my best to keep serious and to make a point about doing just that.. so why would you respond to my post with the derisiveness that you have? These are the kinds of responses that we as a community need to be more mindful of and take responsibility for as participating members of this and other forums otherwise we cannot complain about locked threads and deleted posts when conversations spiral downhill after several posts with exactly that same tone from multiple participants spiraling down into a back and forth pi$$ing contest. We need to stop acting as if our own experience with a given product is the total end all and be all and stop being offended when others have a different experience and express that experience in the same post as we have expressed ours. You and everyone else here must remember .. threads are not locked and posts are not deleted in a vacuum. It isn't as if someone wakes up one day with nothing better to do than delete posts.. Usually those posts or threads have either gone south or are on the express track there, very often with the same participants over the same subject matter and we the moderating staff on this board are just not having it. Everyone who comes here has the right to express their opinions without having their opinion attacked with sarcasm, inuendo, criticism, or out right insults. The sooner we all get that and start posting like we actually want to engage each other in conversation as opposed to just being right the better off the discussion will be. That goes for every side of every debate that has turned to muck on flight sim forums over the past few years.. from the classics like trim on a slider to driverless vehicles and the greatness that is still to be found in IL2. You can disagree but there is no need to be disagreeable. It is not an easy thing to do. I have behaved exactly that way myself... but we need to be ever mindful to edit ourselves and continue to be vigilant and responsible for the content that we deliver up and our role in perpetuating either dialog or chaos. 2
Uufflakke Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) See what happens when we just... talk? Yes, but some only want to talk about CLODO. All the time. On a BOS forum. Even in a topic about a BOS review. And accompanied with lots of CLODO screenshots + videos. As soon as CLODO is mentioned you think: Here we go again. And indeed. Here we go again. I feel sorry for Heinkill. Did his best to create a balanced review and for the 2nd time the topic gets hijacked. Edited November 12, 2014 by Uufflakke 3
Bearcat Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 Yes, but some only want to talk about CLOD. All the time. On a BOS forum. Even in a topic about a BOS review. And accompanied with lots of CLODO screenshots + videos. As soon as CLODO is mentioned you think: Here we go again. And indeed. Here we go again. I feel sorry for Heinkill. Did his best to create a balanced review and for the 2nd time the topic gets hijacked. You do have an excellent point there... and you stated it very appropriately .. Now maybe this thread can get back on topic and some of the other topics can be discussed in threads better suited for that topic.
Bearcat Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 So... I rated BoS an 8 on metacritic because I felt that the core of the sim was sound. I think anything between a 6.5 and an 8.5 is fair given what is in it and what is not. I was more optimistic because I have no doubt that the ME and skins are forthcoming. I think Henkill's review was very well done and contained more than enough information to give anyone who hasd been under a rock for the past 6 months a decent enough idea of what is what. Drop the back and forth CoD stuff guys.. take it to another thread. FOR THE LAST TIME.
Dakpilot Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 As an aside the first "professional" review of BoS is out and rated 80% by Eurogamer Italy, very similar in outlook to Heinkills review Cheers Dakpilot
Bearcat Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 As an aside the first "professional" review of BoS is out and rated 80% by Eurogamer Italy, very similar in outlook to Heinkills review Cheers Dakpilot Got link? I actually thought that Heinkill's review was the first "professional" one ... He is a writer by profession so....
DD_bongodriver Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 Got link? I actually thought that Heinkill's review was the first "professional" one ... He is a writer by profession so.... it's on metacritic too
DD_bongodriver Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 What the Euro gamer review? Yes, it's the first official critic review.
Tompa_73 Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 Yes, but some only want to talk about CLODO. All the time. On a BOS forum. Even in a topic about a BOS review. And accompanied with lots of CLODO screenshots + videos. As soon as CLODO is mentioned you think: Here we go again. And indeed. Here we go again. This! As for Simhq review, it was alot higher then I expected though, 7/10 is really high. But on the other hand, nothing is too high for this sim. 1
Sokol1 Posted November 12, 2014 Posted November 12, 2014 (edited) Eurogamer Italy review (use Google Translator if needed). 8/10 - Although the text suggest that the reviewer don't really play the campaing (like Henkill did)... http://www.eurogamer.it/articles/2014-11-06-il-2-sturmovik-battle-of-stalingrad-recensione-review "...even with all the aids turned on, it remains largely out of reach for any casual user." Edited November 12, 2014 by Sokol1
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