How I Learned to Stop Cringing and Love This Game

[Cognac]

Lots of emotion around here since the official release of the game. I initially felt the same way as many with regards to the unlock system, lack of a FMB, omission of a radio communication mechanism, weird SP campaign mode... but I think I'm getting over it, slowly.

 

Not to say that I was ever incensed; I just didn't feel like I'd gotten my 100$ worth. I would have preferred that the devs had not claimed that this game was complete on the official release date. I suppose one might say that no game in recent memory is complete (just look how much IL-2 mutated over the years, or RoF, or WoT, and so on)

 

At the very least, I think that the basic features should have been available on the official release date. FMB, Comms, an actual career campaign (be it static or dynamic), full control over graphic settings, HUD display options (like getting rid of that silly watermark), a GAME MANUAL... I'm certain all these things are in the works, and I'm willing to wait; but don't try telling me this game is complete. Tell me it's a work in progress. Don't make big announcements that it's done. I will only speak for myself by saying I accept the truth, no matter what it is. It's when I'm lied to that I get upset. Just because the planes are fully flyable, doesn't mean the game is complete. But I'll get over.

 

But what is in the game right now is gorgeous. Without getting into the FM-DM debate or whether or not the planes are balanced or not; it feels right. Sure, there are a few tweaks I'd like to see implemented, such as the sound of damage being inflicted on my plane, or viewing distance at altitude (I know about the workarounds, but still).

 

As for the unlock fiasco, I have a suggestion: I think some sort of point/reward system should be included into the MP mode. In a nutshell, one would be able to unlock mods, skins, maps, even planes and campaigns, by earning kills and destroying targets in MP, as well as in SP. For example, 3x XP/points for an air-to-air kill in MP on expert mode, 4x XP/points for a mission objective (be it ground target or bomber intercept, depending on the mission objectives). One could still just spend the money on buying a plane and mods like in RoF (they'd have to sell the basic game for a lot less, though), or one could grind it out in either SP or MP. But if this sort of system were to be implemented, I think that anyone who bought the premium game already would have to be compensated by giving them the currently available unlocks outright.

 

Anyways, I'm looking forward to what comes out of this game. It isn't perfect, but that's only my opinion.

[Jaeger55]

Why unlock desert camo skins on a winter map?

[GhostLine06]

My guess is that gaining unlocks in MP would be problematic since people could "game" the system by boosting. Why that would even matter is anyone's guess currently, but since they took away anything above the 2x time multiplier in SP it really seems like the devs don't want anyone to quickly unlock all of the mods.

 

Again not allowing a player to unlock the mods as fast as possible is beyond my understanding with all of the information that we currently have on the game. Maybe they are looking to turn the game into something similar to an F2P type SIM since F2P is all the rage with developers lately. Also there are rumors that the game will have an inexpensive version for Russian players with only the LaGG and F4 available at the start, allowing them to then unlock the other planes (just looking at the progress markers in the profile screen shows how such unlocks would happen).

 

Like you said though games these days never seem to be "complete" on release. While annoying compared to the "old methods" previously used by game studios (where the game was released as a completed product with some eventual patching done post release), a part of me almost takes heart in the fact the devs are constantly working to improve their games even after they are released nowadays, instead of them mostly closing up shop and moving to a different title leaving only a skeleton crew to deal with issues and improvements.

 

But like you said for the most part I love this game and I want the devs to be successful so that we can see more content from them in the near (and hopefully far) future.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

My guess is that gaining unlocks in MP would be problematic since people could "game" the system by boosting. Why that would even matter is anyone's guess currently, but since they took away anything above the 2x time multiplier in SP it really seems like the devs don't want anyone to quickly unlock all of the mods.

 

Again not allowing a player to unlock the mods as fast as possible is beyond my understanding with all of the information that we currently have on the game. Maybe they are looking to turn the game into something similar to an F2P type SIM since F2P is all the rage with developers lately. Also there are rumors that the game will have an inexpensive version for Russian players with only the LaGG and F4 available at the start, allowing them to then unlock the other planes (just looking at the progress markers in the profile screen shows how such unlocks would happen).

 

Like you said though games these days never seem to be "complete" on release. While annoying compared to the "old methods" previously used by game studios (where the game was released as a completed product with some eventual patching done post release), a part of me almost takes heart in the fact the devs are constantly working to improve their games even after they are released nowadays, instead of them mostly closing up shop and moving to a different title leaving only a skeleton crew to deal with issues and improvements.

 

But like you said for the most part I love this game and I want the devs to be successful so that we can see more content from them in the near (and hopefully far) future.

This is what worries me: The unlocks are so horribly contrived and pointless, yet they stick to their guns. Call me paranoid, but I see a bad moon a'risin' and I see trouble on the way.

[1./ZG1_ElHadji]

I can actually live with the current state of the game (yeah... I called it a game.) but two things annoy me more than anything:

 

Mission design

The way missions are generated it becomes very unimmersive. Missions are totally random and they don't feel anywhere near historical accurate. I'm on the third 'chapter' at the moment and I mainly fly 109's and 87's. Still I haven't seen one single 'scramble mission' which is the type that was probably most common once the Soviets closed the trap. Even on intercept missions I have to fly the standard four waypoint routes which makes no sense at all. Also the targets seems wrong from a historical perspective. Rudel one of the most successful Stuka aces describes how he kills tanks and attack bridges daily and at one point he flew up to 17 missions on one day! All I seem to attack are artillery positions and airfields (always the same layout with the airfield being easier to strike than the arty) and once and again the odd caravan of trucks or a train. This makes campaign gameplay very repetitive and quite boring to be honest.

 

XP system

OK, I hate the XP system with a passion. But if it made any sense I could probably like it more. I get more XP for taking off than for going after an addtional target such as a enemy airfield on my way back to base. I get no XP for landing a damaged bird at the home airfield if I happen to brake a landing gear. Shooting down enemy planes that aren't scripted mission objectives gives very little XP. And as mentioned above I get awarded with useless stuff such as desert camouflage... This makes campaign gameplay a grind.

[RydnDirty]

I wouldn't give a damn if everybody "cheated " to unlock to bombs and guns options. I will never play the single player cause it isn't fun so I can't bomb anything in multiplayer and so I'm just not playing multiplayer either now, even though I would like to.

 

Any way most of the unlock degrade performance of the plane by increasing weight so it wouldn't bother me if my opponent has a heavier plane with higher wing loading and slower acceleration would it? 

 

The worst part about it is the IL2 and the Stuka do actually need the better armaments and they are also the key planes for multiplayer.  butI can't use AP rockets or high caliber guns to take out tanks. 

[Trooper117]

Why unlock desert camo skins on a winter map?

 

Same reason why they included the 190... people wanted them. The 190 was never serving in the Stalingrad battle.

As much as I really, really want a North Africa/Med add-on, it's not going to happen... the Kuban is next.

[Reflected]

Ok, but what should be the difference between XP points earned by destroying ground targets on Syndicate with 32 players online, or on your private server where nobody is bothering you while you strafe the 50 parked planes on an enemy airfield?

[Vaxxtx]

Ok, but what should be the difference between XP points earned by destroying ground targets on Syndicate with 32 players online, or on your private server where nobody is bothering you while you strafe the 50 parked planes on an enemy airfield?

Better yet, ask yourself why is XP even needed and what does it add to the game as far as immersion and gameplay for a WWII CFS?

[Trooper117]

Well it gives all the new teen flyers that are expected to come over from WT, something to aim/grind for

Experienced simmers, well, just take a back seat for awhile so that the thousands of new teeny bop pilots can catch up and not 'rage quit' every 5 mins... lol!

[ilikepie]

Unlocking standard loadouts is just daft

[PantsPilot]

This probably comes down to giving the game a fair trial before commenting on it perhaps? With forums its very easy to give first impressions I guess and sometimes they can be wrong.

[Yakdriver]

Good topic.

I found a similar way be flying it, instead of commenting and thinking about it.
as soon as you get in the seat, it's awesome.
If i want my money's worth, i fly to get that.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

I will never play the single player cause it isn't fun so I can't bomb anything in multiplayer and so I'm just not playing multiplayer either now, even though I would like to.

 

The worst part about it is the IL2 and the Stuka do actually need the better armaments and they are also the key planes for multiplayer.  butI can't use AP rockets or high caliber guns to take out tanks. 

You "can't bomb"? Seriously? The bombers have their historical common bomb loadouts without any unlock needed.

 

There were only a few prototypes of IL2 in Stalingrad who had "high caliber guns". And there was no Stuka at all before the G1 in May 1943.

Please. The unlocks are really just some candy. Very nonstandard or even unhistoric stuff.

 

To implicate that you "can't fly" or use the planes without unlocks is just redicolous. Beside a few ones, unlocked in 2-3 sorties (remove head rest 109, or bombs if you want to use fighterbomber) you don't even have an advantage in multiplayer.

If you need to do 2 bomb runs, to kill a depot, because you don't have unlocked your wonderweapon 2800kg bomb - then make 2!

[BlackDevil]

I think the unlocks for MP have been a bad decision, but Celestiale is right - you don't need them to fly MP.

Although I don't like SP, i did do some campaign missions, and used them learning to navigate and did train

hitting ground stuff. So I don't consider that wasted time. It is more frustrating not to find and hit your target when

flying on LD or syndicate server. I am trying to arrange with the sim as it is, as I don't see any alternative sim for WW2.

[Yakdriver]

You "can't bomb"? Seriously? The bombers have their historical common bomb loadouts without any unlock needed.

 

There were only a few prototypes of IL2 in Stalingrad who had "high caliber guns". And there was no Stuka at all before the G1 in May 1943.

Please. The unlocks are really just some candy. Very nonstandard or even unhistoric stuff.

 

To implicate that you "can't fly" or use the planes without unlocks is just redicolous. Beside a few ones, unlocked in 2-3 sorties (remove head rest 109, or bombs if you want to use fighterbomber) you don't even have an advantage in multiplayer.

If you need to do 2 bomb runs, to kill a depot, because you don't have unlocked your wonderweapon 2800kg bomb - then make 2!

 

so the bombs for the 109 and the 190 are eye candy.

they do not enhance the capabilities of the planes at all whatsoever.

so you could take out the 250kg bombs for the IL-2 and the plane would lose none of its firepower. Or the 23mm and 37mm cannons.

 

all just useless code and waste of time.

 

try again.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

so the bombs for the 109 and the 190 are eye candy.

they do not enhance the capabilities of the planes at all whatsoever.

so you could take out the 250kg bombs for the IL-2 and the plane would lose none of its firepower. Or the 23mm and 37mm cannons.

 

all just useless code and waste of time.

 

try again.

 

reading is not your strength, right?

 

 

 

Beside a few ones, unlocked in 2-3 sorties (remove head rest 109, or bombs if you want to use fighterbomber)

 

 

 

There were only a few prototypes of IL2 in Stalingrad who had "high caliber guns". And there was no Stuka at all before the G1 in May 1943.

 

[Yakdriver]

 

 

The unlocks are really just some candy. Very nonstandard or even unhistoric stuff.

THIS.

Hmm?

[DD_bongodriver]

Candy, not eye candy, but even that is wrong, unlocks sound like trying to swallow pine cones.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

 

THIS.

 

Hmm?

yep this. all unlocks beside figherbombs and wintercamo are nonstandard or unhistoric (or useless, like the Rpk10 - with your fancy radar map)

[unreasonable]

I agree with Celestiale here: getting the bombs for fighter bombers is trivially easy in SP campaign, the rest you can just ignore both for MP and SP. 

 

We do not like being forced to do something, and the idea of unlocks seems out of place and annoying in our genre: but for people to treat it as a show stopper is an over-reaction.

 

There are plenty of areas where the SP game needs improvement to make it any good, this is a really low priority, but hardly anyone is talking about them.

 

I wish I had never heard the word.

[Brano]

Unlocks are no showstopper,just get over it or quit if it is so hard for you to swallow.

Far more important issues to fix:

1.AI behaviour in general

2.Flight formations and how AI rather not stay in them and has hard time to follow the leader

3.Flight leader commands - they are just poorly implemented now (I do not want to repeat my allredy expressed opinion on this matter) Even this new fancy graphical F1-F3 update is pretty awkward to use and I stay with old learned shortcuts alt+1-0

4.Offline career with your own pilot and unit you fly in+management of unit from different leader position+several pilot profiles

5.Proper military ranks and awards/medals/titles

6.Possibility to setup my own P2P online session with friends without having to run dedicated server.

[Georgio]

By far the worst thing about the campaign is the way you get penalised for getting your crippled bird back to your base in roughly one piece. Instead of having your points halved you should get a damn bonus as it was easier to patch up damaged planes than get new ones certainly from a German point of view.

[Rama]

Everybody is entitled to talk about the features he likes or dislike in the game and to tell if one of them is a showstopper or not for himself

Please don't explain what other peoples should like or dislike and what should be or not a showstopper for them.

 

Thank's in advance.

[J2_Trupobaw]

Again not allowing a player to unlock the mods as fast as possible is beyond my understanding with all of the information that we currently have on the game. Maybe they are looking to turn the game into something similar to an F2P type SIM since F2P is all the rage with developers lately. 

 

I think it's a way to draw people into playing SP campaign in its current state, despite its shortcomings. Don't have time and money to develop full blown career mode? Then make what you have more attractive by rewarding players for flying it. No conspiracy, just making ends meet.

 

Unlocking standard loadouts is just daft

Making weapon options that change your tactics and affect other weapons as field mods makes sense, it streamlines the loadouts. Want more cannons? Forget about the bombs etc. Easier to have the "moded" weapons have their own loadout lists than to have long list of all possible combinations, or to make shortcuts that allow Stuka with 1700kg bomb and wing cannons.

 

On the other hand, making optional weapon mods unlockable isn't that bad either. It's combining these two ideas into unlockable loadouts where two rights make a wrong.

 

Having played the campaign, having looked at unlock lists, I can live with them. The planes that need unlocks the most (ground attack planes and bombers) have the most interesting missions in campaign (I often fly ground attack even in fighters, it makes things much more interesting). Also, we don't bomb human-crewed trains or trucks or bridges in multiplayer, so ground attack mission and especially bombing missions are still good practice for MP, targetwise.  

 

On to fighters. Majority of grindable mods in Soviet fighters are bombs, completely optional for fighters. Yak-1, supposedly the best Soviet dogfighter, has only bombs and radio navigation as unlocks. LaGG-3 gets cannon upgrade in tutorial, after that all you can unlock is bombs and specialised 37mm cannon. If you want to use Yak and LaGG as fighters and leave ground attack to IL-2, you can skip their unlocks entirely. La-5 with its flat windscreen and extra cannon loads unlocks is the only Soviet fighter that makes grinding for all unlocks worthwile. 

 

In German fighters there are useful unlocks like better windscreens / headrests, but they are unlocked early on and can be reached by spending evening flying each plane, and you get most of bombs along the way. The only things that require lots of grinding are wing cannons in 109G and 190 (and 109F if you are not a founder and don't start with 20mm cannons). 

 

If we treat La-5 and FW190 as optional planes, there are even fewer fighter upgrades worth grinding for.

 

Edited November 13, 2014 by Trupobaw

[Yakdriver]

yep this. all unlocks beside figherbombs and wintercamo are nonstandard or unhistoric (or useless, like the Rpk10 - with your fancy radar map)

... think for a moment.

If you get such radio gizmoes, then the ground systems are already in the works somewhere in their Construction bureau.

they are hardly wasting time on something that has no use.

Have some faith - there is a Truckload of stuff we do not even know about yet!

[II./JG77_Manu*]

... think for a moment.

If you get such radio gizmoes, then the ground systems are already in the works somewhere in their Construction bureau.

they are hardly wasting time on something that has no use.

Have some faith - there is a Truckload of stuff we do not even know about yet!

i very much hope so. Can't wait for that GPS satellite navigation to disappear in expert...

[unreasonable]

Everybody is entitled to talk about the features he likes or dislike in the game and to tell if one of them is a showstopper or not for himself

Please don't explain what other peoples should like or dislike and what should be or not a showstopper for them.

 

Thank's in advance.

Quite right, Rama, since I was the one who made the comment that earned your ire let me rephrase it as I should have done:

 

Initially, on being faced with the unlocks, I felt sufficiently angry and disappointed that I was close to abandoning the game.  Having examined the unlocks and finding that most of them are meaningless, ahistoric chrome, and that the ones that are not are fairly easy to get, I was still angry and disappointed that so much time had been wasted on this absurd and misguided design decision that has alienated so many current and potential customers, while elements that I wanted, and had been explicity told by the DDs that I would get, had been cut from the game without explanation or apology.

 

However, having taken a deep breath and having decided to salvage as much enjoyment as possible from this investment as possible, essentially by ignoring the unlocks and playing the game by my own rules, I have found that a considerable amount of enjoyment can still be had from the game as long as you ignore the unlocks, xp and all the other console crap the developers have seen fit to shovel on top of a perfectly good core sim. So I have decided that my own reaction that the unlocks were a show stopper was an over-reaction. The game is still a rather poor SP experience, but it could be salvaged. In the mean time I can at least learn to fly the planes better.

 

By a process of extending empathy to other players who were clearly feeling the same as I was during their initial reaction to the unlock system, I felt that some of them too, on mature reflection, might decide that the unlock system, while still being a badly implemented carbuncle on the face of a potentially great sim, could be ignored rather than being a show stopper, once they had overcome their initial strong reaction.

 

My post was thus never intended to infringe on the rights of man, it merely suffered from the ambiguity that sometimes occurs when brevity is preferred to clarity.

Edited November 14, 2014 by unreasonable

[Yakdriver]

i very much hope so. Can't wait for that GPS satellite navigation to disappear in expert...

WAIT... you must, young Padawan.

and that is not difficult to do. we just sit around on our... big fat Beer Bottles (?) while THEY figure out a way how to please us.

 

Or , as the OP said... Use our tools best we can now, and wait for the waves of progress to roll in.

and as the small patches roll in, like waves, use the inertia of said waves to ride them like a surfer enjoys a wave.

 

we are getting somewhere, aren't we? so keep the spirit high, and enjoy what we have.

[JG1_Pragr]

...And there was no Stuka at all before the G1 in May 1943...

Actually you are wrong. The Bk 3.7 was tested on D-3 version for the first time. I think even Rudel mentioned in his memoirs, that his first experience with anti-tank guns was the modified D-3 with Bk 3.7s.

Personally, I'd prefer if there would be the mod removing the MG17s in the wing and mounted MG 151/20s instead, but that's just my opinion.

[Yakdriver]

Actually you are wrong. The Bk 3.7 was tested on D-3 version for the first time. I think even Rudel mentioned in his memoirs, that his first experience with anti-tank guns was the modified D-3 with Bk 3.7s.

Personally, I'd prefer if there would be the mod removing the MG17s in the wing and mounted MG 151/20s instead, but that's just my opinion.

But would that not make it a D5, then?

*scratches head*

i hate that plane.

 

Just busted me a Heinkel. and did NOT die in the process. slashing attacks, guys...

fast, from some crazy angle. and pull the trigger at the last moment. and hope and pray to poppa Jussef that you don't crash into his tail or something.

 

Must have wasted all my ammo trying to do that at 5500

But i got a pair of 100kg Bombs and two paintjobs for it.

*headbang*

[guidom]

Just thought I would share a recent experience in the Friedrich which addresses some of these concerns. In the last chapter of the campaign, flying mainly for the deutschies. I was taking off out of Pitomnik, with one wingman, on an intercept of IL2s to the south-east. Flying just under cloud base at about 750m, we took plenty of ground fire as we left the encircled area. As we approached the target area, number two stayed tight and didn’t run off around the place chasing shadows. After searching for a few minutes we came across the IL2s. I engaged and took down two, damaging the other one, before losing him in clouds. My fuel tank had been hit by ground fire so I decided to head for home before running out. Then number two came over the intercom, he had dispatched the final IL2 and soon returned to my wing. We were treated to an apocalyptic view of Stalingrad as the sun rose, billowing smoke and puffs of artillery strikes in the ruins. My fuel was ok so instructed number 2 to land first. I flew past the airfield and watched him on approach. Suddenly tracer flashed past, and I dove for the ground. I’d been jumped by a pair of Yaks! My coolant had been hit, I was in no condition for a dogfight, so I kept them on my tail and flew low over the anti-air and flak stations. A minute later both Yaks were streaming smoke – thanks HIWIs! I finally lined up for approach and bounced in for a passable landing. What a relief!

This was by far my most entertaining mission. The recent improvements have made me fall in love with the game. Now to finish the campaign again with the Commies!

[JG1_Pragr]

But would that not make it a D5, then?

 

I think the D-5 used a bigger wing. But I'm not sure. Anyway some says that Bk 3.7 makes the G-1 from the ingame D-3. On the other hand, there were at least few D-3 armed with Bk 3.7 so it's historical correct. If there was any D-3 armed with MG 151/20 I have no idea. It's better question for some Stuka experts here.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Actually you are wrong. The Bk 3.7 was tested on D-3 version for the first time. I think even Rudel mentioned in his memoirs, that his first experience with anti-tank guns was the modified D-3 with Bk 3.7s.

Personally, I'd prefer if there would be the mod removing the MG17s in the wing and mounted MG 151/20s instead, but that's just my opinion.

 

no mate, i am not wrong, you are wrong . There was never a D3 with BK.  It was tested on a modified D5, it was Rudels idea to attach the BK, and he asked his own mechanics to do so. After some testing he proposed it to the LW upper management, and they followed his advice, to mass produce such a variant. And it first saw combat in May 1943. By the way..modified D5=G1. That was just the new designation for the D with the BK. (in later versions the wings became a little bigger).

To your second sentence, there was also no D3 with 20mm cannons. It would just be the Schlachtflugzeug Version D5, like hawker already explained. Maybe we see it in the next expansion

[JG1_Pragr]

Ju 87G-1 used the shorter wing of D-3 version. The longer version of wing used by D-5 model was introduced on G-2 version. So no, G-1 is not a modified D-5.

 

You can find basics here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_87#Ju_87G

 

According to this source, first examples of G-1 production arrived to front in April 1943. Based on Rudel's memoir book "Stuka pilot" (I read it like 5 months ago) he was not the initiator of the Flak 18 (Bk 3.7) implementation. He was invited only for testing while he was back from the front duty.

Edited November 14, 2014 by II./JG1_Pragr

[Yakdriver]

oh i didnt explain anything- i just wrote that off the top of my head.

i do not want to know the stuka in any way other than in my sight, burning and smoking.

- although i respect the construction's use and the men on the commands...!

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Ju 87G-1 used the shorter wing of D-3 version. The longer version of wing used by D-5 model was introduced on G-2 version. So no, G-1 is not a modified D-5.

 

You can find basics here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_87#Ju_87G

 

According to this source, first examples of G-1 production arrived to front in April 1943. Based on Rudel's memoir book "Stuka pilot" (I read it like 5 months ago) he was not the initiator of the Flak 18 (Bk 3.7) implementation. He was invited only for testing while he was back from the front duty.

 

apparentely your copy is translated wrong. I have the original in german, i also have a book with all the german sources. And i just yesterday (looked it up before posting) read, that it was his idea to test it, and he persuaded the upper management to produce it. And he used the D5, not the D3. The G2 had even bigger wings then the G1/D5.

I wouldn't use wikipedia as an valuable source every time. I can even provide you with 10 sources in the internet, which underline my statement.

here is one --> http://weltkrieg2.de/Waffen/Flugzeuge/Bomber/deutsche/Junkers/Ju87/G.htm

unfortunately i don't have the time to search out the other 9 for you right now, because i am at work

 

Edit: Btw, even your own wikipedia sources says that i am right   --> "Hans-Ulrich Rudel, a Stuka ace, had suggested using two 37 mm (1.46 in) Flak 18 guns, each one in a self-contained under-wing gun pod, as the Bordkanone BK 3,7, after achieving success against Soviet tanks with the 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon"

Edited November 14, 2014 by Celestiale

[JG1_Pragr]

It needed time but I found this citation of Rudel's Stuka pilot:

 

 

After much telephoning I am instructed to proceed, on expiration of my leave, to Rechlin where experiments are being carried out in the use of anti-tank weapons from aircraft... We have here Ju 88 with 7.5 cm cannon installed under the pilot's seat and Ju 87 Stukas like those I have always flown, fitted with 3.7 flak cannon under each wing.

 

I agree with you in terms of Wiki. But the source you posted is even less precise than english wiki and there are lot of nonsense. 

Edited November 14, 2014 by II./JG1_Pragr

[II./JG77_Manu*]

It needed time but I found this citation of Rudel's Stuka pilot:

 

 

I agree with you in terms of Wiki.

 

i really don't want to goof your sources right now mate, but sometimes there is stuff which is translated wrong because the original was "ambiguous"(had to look that word up in translater). The most prominent source here definitely the bible(or koran). Same can happen with younger sources. And in addition your quote doesn't really say anything about if it was his idea, or not.

But let's stop our discussion here, because it's not really important, who "is in the right" here hum?

Fact is, there was no BK37 near Stalingrad, that was my only intention to tell in my first post. And i think you agree with me in this point?!

[JG1_Pragr]

I agree. This Stuka mod (either historically correct or not) was not in operational use during the game time scale for sure. Even if my sources are right. On the other hand this mod is so "useful" there would be no problem with, because there would be very few people only willing to fly with.