For the Guys who call the visual damage in BoS "Hollywood-Effects"..

[unreasonable]

Fact is, the 111 was very very vulnerable from small calibers. The 7,7mm Spitfires and Hurricanes caused Havoc under them during the Battle of Britain. There was one day, where the Luftwaffe had a huge planning error, and about 100 111s flew unguarded from norway towards nothern england. A group of 20 Spitfires found them, and attacked them. Less then 10 111s came back home. That is almost 5 111 kills per spitfire on average, and if you ever played CloD you really know, the Spit does only have ammo for 16 seconds. So less then 2,5 sec Mg burst to kill a 111.   As awesome as it looks, it wasn't a really well-fortified bomber compared to other ones (B17, Lanny, Do217, He177, B29, Tu2.....)

 

I assume you are referring to the raid on Aldertag, in which case you have your casualty figures mixed up. From wiki:

 

Adlertag opened with a series of attacks, led again by Epro 210,^[138] on coastal airfields used as forward landing grounds for the RAF fighters, as well as 'satellite airfields'^{[nb 19]} (including Manston and Hawkinge).^[138] As the week drew on, the airfield attacks moved further inland, and repeated raids were made on the radar chain. 15 August was "The Greatest Day" when the Luftwaffe mounted the largest number of sorties of the campaign. Luftflotte 5 attacked the north of England. Believing Fighter Command strength to be concentrated in the south, raiding forces from Denmark and Norway ran into unexpectedly strong resistance. Inadequately escorted by Bf 110s, bombers were shot down in large numbers. North East England was attacked by 65 Heinkel 111s escorted by 34 Messerschmitt 110s, and RAF Great Driffield was attacked by 50 unescorted Junkers 88s. Out of 115 bombers and 35 fighters sent, 16 bombers and 7 fighters were destroyed.^[139] As a result of these casualties, Luftflotte 5 did not appear in strength again in the campaign.

 

If you are referring to som other raid I would love to know what it was.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

No i don't mean "The hardest day". I'll check the name and date of the operation i mean in my book, and tell you then

Edited November 11, 2014 by Celestiale

[Chuck_Owl]

Fact is, the 111 was very very vulnerable from small calibers. The 7,7mm Spitfires and Hurricanes caused Havoc under them during the Battle of Britain. There was one day, where the Luftwaffe had a huge planning error, and about 100 111s flew unguarded from norway towards nothern england. A group of 20 Spitfires found them, and attacked them. Less then 10 111s came back home. That is almost 5 111 kills per spitfire on average, and if you ever played CloD you really know, the Spit does only have ammo for 16 seconds. So less then 2,5 sec Mg burst to kill a 111.   As awesome as it looks, it wasn't a really well-fortified bomber compared to other ones (B17, Lanny, Do217, He177, B29, Tu2.....)

 

I have a very hard time believing that on a flight of 20 Spitfires, each of them shot down 5 bombers. Most pilots were not expert marksmen by any stretch of the imagination and the only way to attack bombers and live to tell the tale was to make high-angle passes and go for one of the engines. .303 caliber guns did not create critical structural damage on components like wing spars or fuselage frames unless you had a very long and very precise burst cutting these components. The only efficient damage .303s could do was by damaging engine components, hitting radiators or killing the pilot. 

 

If you could find the source for this encounter, I'd be very curious to read it.

[unreasonable]

No i don't mean "The hardest day". I'll check the name and date of the operation i mean in my book, and tell you then

Good for you. I am 99.9% sure that you have made an honest mistake. If .303 armed Spitfires could do this level of damage they would never have tried so hard to get cannons to work.

 

In fairness, I believe there were occasions early in the war when the RAF was still trying unescorted daylight bombing against German port targets and they did suffer horrendous casualties, but of course the German fighters were cannon armed.

[PantsPilot]

Just shows how .50 cals are all you need tbh, they're fast, they hit like a truck and you can pack a lot more than cannon rounds.

Dunno, I think you need far less cannon rounds to do the same amount of damage, so cannon really makes more sense, especially late war when targets became more heavily armoured. In Normandy 44 4x20mm cannon armed Typhoons did more damage that 8x50mg armed P-47's simply because the 20mm cannon round had more penetrative power. But against fighters and soft ground targets the .50's did fine, especially against lightly protected Japanese planes. Think the most potent fighters of WW2 were those armed with batteries of 4x20mm cannon.  

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Think the most potent fighters of WW2 were those armed with batteries of 4x20mm cannon.  

I think, the ones with a high cadence 30mm cannon (or 4 like the 262 ). One 30mm bullet means a definite kill on every plane beside the "flyink tanks" B17 and Lancaster. One 30mm bullet also has a lot more explosive power and weight then 4 20s..

[PantsPilot]

I think, the ones with a high cadence 30mm cannon (or 4 like the 262 ). One 30mm bullet means a definite kill on every plane beside the "flyink tanks" B17 and Lancaster. One 30mm bullet also has a lot more explosive power and weight then 4 20s..

Yes but me.262's were comparatively rare whereas there were many 4x20mm cannon armed fighters. Also the high closing speed of the 262 made gunnery extremely difficult, almost impossible against opposing fighters. 

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Yes but me.262's were comparatively rare whereas there were many 4x20mm cannon armed fighters. Also the high closing speed of the 262 made gunnery extremely difficult, almost impossible against opposing fighters. 

Right. But the Mk108 was pretty common from 1943 onwards, most of the german fighters had it equipted. The reason the allies didn't use it (beside the russian Ts) is that they mainly fought against (german) fighters or stuka, and there you just didn't need the firepower of a 30mm cannon

[PantsPilot]

True the 30mm was a potent weapon, why wasn't it fitted to the Dora 9?

[II./JG77_Manu*]

True the 30mm was a potent weapon, why wasn't it fitted to the Dora 9?

The Dora was only built to counter the Mustang, it's purpose was to destract the Mustangs and get them into dogfights (first german fighter that was [slightly] superior to it), while the heavier equipped fighters (109, 190-A,Me410) attacked the bombers

[Lusekofte]

my guess is weight, Dora 9 was meant for high altitude

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

I wish they had GoPros back then.

[Sokol1]

"I have a very hard time believing that on a flight of 20 Spitfires, each of them shot down 5 bombers"

 

For what I find the "record" is three bomber for one RAF pilot in BoB - for the same pilot in two different ocasions:

 

"On 15 August 1940 No. 605 intercepted a German raid against Tyneside mounted by He 111s based in Norway with Luftflotte 5 (Air Fleet 5)" McKellar was credited with three He 111s destroyed during the encounter. 

 

9 September.[27] McKellar attacked with the sun at his back with his Squadron, save for one Section which was left to provide top cover against Bf 109s. The attack was made head-on to break up the German bomber formation which consisted of a large mass of He 111s.[28] He destroyed three He 111s with a single, 12–second burst. The first He 111 exploded. It damaged a second which rolled over and dived down into the ground. McKellar then moved his fire to a third. Its port wing snapped off.[27] He then destroyed a Bf 109 in the afternoon giving him a fourth success.[1]

 

And that guy are a good shooter:

 

On 7 October his score rose by five victories, all Bf 109s—becoming an Ace in a day. McKellar explained three of the five victories in the combat that day in his combat report;

...." I opened fire and saw my De Wilde (explosive ammuntion) hitting his machine."

 

Well...

Edited November 13, 2014 by Sokol1

[II./JG77_Manu*]

"I have a very hard time believing that on a flight of 20 Spitfires, each of them shot down 5 bombers"

 

For what I find the "record" is three bomber for one RAF pilot in BoB - for the same pilot in two different ocasions:

 

"On 15 August 1940 No. 605 intercepted a German raid against Tyneside mounted by He 111s based in Norway with Luftflotte 5 (Air Fleet 5)" McKellar was credited with three He 111s destroyed during the encounter. 

 

9 September.[27] McKellar attacked with the sun at his back with his Squadron, save for one Section which was left to provide top cover against Bf 109s. The attack was made head-on to break up the German bomber formation which consisted of a large mass of He 111s.[28] He destroyed three He 111s with a single, 12–second burst. The first He 111 exploded. It damaged a second which rolled over and dived down into the ground. McKellar then moved his fire to a third. Its port wing snapped off.[27] He then destroyed a Bf 109 in the afternoon giving him a fourth success.[1]

 

And that guy are a good shooter:

 

On 7 October his score rose by five victories, all Bf 109s—becoming an Ace in a day. McKellar explained three of the five victories in the combat that day in his combat report;

...." I opened fire and saw my De Wilde (explosive ammuntion) hitting his machine."

 

Well...

 

yeah, my bad. I dissarragened something there. Checked it up in my book, the english claimed 96 kills on that day i meant, but in fact only 34 german planes didn't return on that day. 21 Of them 111, intercepted by both a spitfire and a hurricane squadron, 34 british planes in total. So yes, that 5 kills was in fact exaggerated

But still, my point, the 111 doesn't withstand damage, even small caliber, very good.

[KaC_Furias]

Hollywood-Effects ??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

[DD_bongodriver]

it is amazing the effects that happen in a split millisecond that the human eye never quite sees.

[Brano]

He111 was 1930s design of fast medium bomber to be operated in conditions of aerial supremacy.Its construction was not designed to be resistant to determined aerial resistance of new generation of monoplane fighters equipped with cannons,retractable gear and greater speed.This concep was outdated before it went into real implementation (simmilar to soviet SB design where SB stands for fast bomber).

He111 had almost no engine protection - there was only small armor plate to protect oil radiator.Even it had selfsealing tanks,they were not equipped with injection of engine exhaust gases to decreas chance of fire outbreak.It was literally advised to soviet fighter pilots to go for engines and wing fuel tanks.It was not considered as tough target to bring down.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

He111 was 1930s design of fast medium bomber to be operated in conditions of aerial supremacy.Its construction was not designed to be resistant to determined aerial resistance of new generation of monoplane fighters equipped with cannons,retractable gear and greater speed.This concep was outdated before it went into real implementation (simmilar to soviet SB design where SB stands for fast bomber).

He111 had almost no engine protection - there was only small armor plate to protect oil radiator.Even it had selfsealing tanks,they were not equipped with injection of engine exhaust gases to decreas chance of fire outbreak.It was literally advised to soviet fighter pilots to go for engines and wing fuel tanks.It was not considered as tough target to bring down.

exactly. In fact even the later versions of Ju87 (D onwards)  were better armored (engine +cockpit) then a 111.

[unreasonable]

yeah, my bad. I dissarragened something there. Checked it up in my book, the english claimed 96 kills on that day i meant, but in fact only 34 german planes didn't return on that day. 21 Of them 111, intercepted by both a spitfire and a hurricane squadron, 34 british planes in total. So yes, that 5 kills was in fact exaggerated

But still, my point, the 111 doesn't withstand damage, even small caliber, very good.

 

OK glad we have cleared that up. Another way of looking at that raid is that 34 Spitfires and Hurricanes vectored onto a raid which had only obsolete Me110s as escorts shot down one aircraft per attacker (according to your casualty numbers, slightly less according to wiki's (I am still fairly sure we are talking about the same raid)).

 

I think this was about the best the RAF ever did in terms of kills/attacker, but I could be wrong.  So that is about 12 seconds of fire per kill, (IIRC) maybe 4-5 good bursts, who knows what proportion of bullets hit. 

 

My own take is that BoS damage is about right, but the lose 109 wing from high deflection rear gunner shot still looks fishy to me. Other wise I suspect AI gunnery is a bit too good, especially the fighters, they hardly ever fire and miss.

Edited November 13, 2014 by unreasonable

[Sokol1]

But still, my point, the 111 doesn't withstand damage, even small caliber, very good.

 

Depends on where HE 111 is hit.

 

 

Plane like this have a bad effect on German moral, because bring back dead crews. They were always meeting "the last few Spitfires".

 

In the game are a good compromisse, a single MG burst on engine and plane are finished, or one hit various cannon rounds on fuselage, wing surfaces and the He 111 keeps flying... with lot of leakages.

Are some generous hit-box, like the frontal one in fighters, few (gunner) MG hit there = fire.

[dkoor]

Here are more highlights, looking rather non hollywood style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jtxg3kO7LQ

Meh some of those guys attacking airplanes with gunners would do a poor job in IL-2 considering they were attacking them just like any other fighter without defensive fire capabilities.

 

It for most part just confirms how poor those defenses were (bomber gunners) in real thing.

 

Their effectivenesses are for the most parts inflated beyond limits in our games.

Edited November 13, 2014 by dkoor