Bombing with the Junkers

[grandkodiak]

Just started trying to get into this game... and it's been frustrating thus forward. The game gives you little to no information...on anything (how to unlock things, what specific requirements are) and most importantly, how to perform certain actions without falling apart.

 

As for the Stuka, can someone fill me in? I figured out that you have to hold the bomb release down to get it to drop... but other then that...

 

What is the take off, flaps up stall and approach/landing speed at normal combat load roughly?

 

What is "cruising" height for missions? It just says, climb to cruising altitude then follow the waypoints.

 

For a dive bomb, I've seen online that you get the target in the foot window, invert and dive. I've also seen that you should put the dive brake on before doing so. But from what altitute should you begin the dive, and from what speed? While in the dive, what should the throttles be at? Every attempt I've made my controls have gone dead (but without indication of any damage, or any parts comming off that i could see in the cockpit)

 

When should you begin pullup, or is it automatic like wikipedia says as a saftey design, and is that even modelled in the game?

 

There are 85205x types of views, but with no description of how they behave. I use track IR but its rather frustrating trying to use the sights with it, is there a button I can map to hold steady view zoomed on the sights without it moving about like mad? if I slow the trackir to smoothen it out for up close work, it becomes useless for quick looks while turning in dogfights.

 

Is there a way to save mid mission?? I don't mind flying for 15 minutes just to get to battle, but doing so while trying to get used to the sim is annoying... especially if i die or crash, and take 15 minutes even at 2x speed to try again.

 

In custom flight model, is there no way to enable external view? im good with flight and realism being close as possible, i dont want all the aids really except the rpm and coolant flap type crap... but i dont want to have to use easy mode jsut to get an external. some of the best way to tollerate long flights between missions is to enjoy the eye candy in a modern sim after all!!!

 

Thanks!

Edited November 4, 2014 by grandkodiak

[grandkodiak]

I meant the Stuka

[SCG_Limboski]

I'm new to the game too and pretty frustrated with the state of the documentation too and shared some of the exact same questions.  I think IL-2 has the makings of a GREAT sim but to officially release the game without any sort of official documentation is unheard for a flightsim.  Apparently, a manual is forthcoming.  I recently asked about the camera controls myself and and got a good response from SYN_requiem.  This person also has a fairly complete set of tutorials covering the basics of each plane including dive bombing for the Stuka  which you may have seen.  There is also Chuck's aircraft guide which gives you some different numbers you can use for flying.

 

I'm not entirely sure, but I do not think dive bombing systems are fully simulated in BoS yet.  I came here to look to see if you could set the altitude warning indicator on the the contact altimeter (the red line).  This should cause an audible alarm to go off when you hit the set altitude when you dive.  (I also wanted to learn about the Ansaugluft lever that seems coordinated with the flaps positions.)    SYN-requiem says in his Stuka introduction video that he would discuss it in his dive bombing video but he does not do this at all, and I have not seen the Stuka pull out of a dive automatically after releasing the bomb which is what happened in real life I believe.

 

You should begin your pull-up as soon as your bomb is released.  A 90 degree attack is the most accurate form of bombing but it can be difficult to set it up exactly right and requires a lot of altitude.  You can dive bomb from almost any angle.  One good rule of thumb for less steep angles is to release the bomb just as the target disappears underneath the nose.  It takes a lot of practice to get a good feel for dive bombing technique at different angles.  I find 2,000 meters to be a good height to dive from but higher is always better if you can spot the target (assuming the dive speed stops increasing at some point).  In the mission's briefing, it indicates your ingress altitude.

Edited November 4, 2014 by II./JG77_Limbo

[SCG_Limboski]

And this post.

[I./JG1_Baron]

Guys look at this: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/10268-chucks-aircraft-guide/

 

Have fun and many happy landings 

[malcheus]

Do you guys make a positive G turn, or a negative one when diving? 

Some people seem so like the positive one, where you roll over all the way before starting the dive, but I find just diving without rolling over works as well. 

You just get a better view of the target in an inverted dive, but this can also be achieved by opening the window and poking your head out on the final aproach. 

[Sokol1]

"is there a button I can map to hold steady view zoomed on the sights without it moving about like mad? "

 

Test if |(keypad) ", + 8" fit to what you want, and set a macro for joystick button press then.

[Brewnix]

Just started trying to get into this game... and it's been frustrating thus forward. The game gives you little to no information...on anything (how to unlock things, what specific requirements are) and most importantly, how to perform certain actions without falling apart.

 

As for the Stuka, can someone fill me in? I figured out that you have to hold the bomb release down to get it to drop... but other then that...

 

What is the take off, flaps up stall and approach/landing speed at normal combat load roughly?

 

What is "cruising" height for missions? It just says, climb to cruising altitude then follow the waypoints.

 

For a dive bomb, I've seen online that you get the target in the foot window, invert and dive. I've also seen that you should put the dive brake on before doing so. But from what altitute should you begin the dive, and from what speed? While in the dive, what should the throttles be at? Every attempt I've made my controls have gone dead (but without indication of any damage, or any parts comming off that i could see in the cockpit)

 

When should you begin pullup, or is it automatic like wikipedia says as a saftey design, and is that even modelled in the game?

 

There are 85205x types of views, but with no description of how they behave. I use track IR but its rather frustrating trying to use the sights with it, is there a button I can map to hold steady view zoomed on the sights without it moving about like mad? if I slow the trackir to smoothen it out for up close work, it becomes useless for quick looks while turning in dogfights.

 

Is there a way to save mid mission?? I don't mind flying for 15 minutes just to get to battle, but doing so while trying to get used to the sim is annoying... especially if i die or crash, and take 15 minutes even at 2x speed to try again.

 

In custom flight model, is there no way to enable external view? im good with flight and realism being close as possible, i dont want all the aids really except the rpm and coolant flap type crap... but i dont want to have to use easy mode jsut to get an external. some of the best way to tollerate long flights between missions is to enjoy the eye candy in a modern sim after all!!!

 

Thanks!

I use Track IR 5 myself i actually turn off alot of the movements. In the movement adjustment section all i have checked is YAW,Pitch, X and Trueview i uncheck Roll,Y,Z it limits alot of the movement you might be talking about then i can zoom in and out. SO i can zoom to gunsight but i still have side to side with the X checked. I left the side to side on so when you check your six you can see around the armor plate or seat. That has steady the camera alot for me in aiming and dropping bombs.

[JG1_Pragr]

I know I'm late but what I used in Stuka.

 

First, my approaching altitude varies between 3 000 and 4 000 m. This way I have enough time to aim on target and stabilized the plane in dive.

Now about the attack. As soon as I see the target in the small window on the floor of the cockpit I perform following actions (assume I have the supercharge switch to auto):

 

- close water radiator

- set propeller to 0

- throttle to idle

- open the airbrakes

- turn on the siren (optional)

- elevator trim to nose heavy (about -50 to -75)

- push the stick 'till the target appears in gunsight

 

I drop the bombs in altitude between 600 m and 1 000 m (depends on actual condition like enemy defense etc.) This way the dive angle is some 60 to 70 degrees. It's exactly how the Stukas were attacking in real world. The famous start of attack by rolling over the wing was used for cinema/propaganda purpose only

[J2_Trupobaw]

To much hurry to type now but here's a pic that set me on right track.

[Lusekofte]

Well the flipped over sideway thing, is historical incorrect. It was used on occasions but all the time in propaganda measures . They simply set the altitude on when to drop the bomb and the release of the bomb activated the automatic dive recovery . When going in to the target they started approaching with a sideway view to see the target, when identified they turned against it and looked at the floor window (witch by the way is not working) and when they saw the target they applied the dive brake. The altitude set on bomb release was as I understand it deciding on how the automatic pitch trim would angle the aircraft towards it target. They normally dropped the bomb below 1000 m often at 700 m and never below 500 m. It all depended on how defended the area was by flak.

So in my opinion we lack automatic bomb release , the altitude settings, automatic recovery and the possibility to open the floor window (that is if I haven't missed anything)

 

Other than that I think it give a wonderful feeling of flight, and I enjoy it

[Dakpilot]

" open the floor window (that is if I haven't missed anything)"

 

use default open bomb bay doors key

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[JG1_Pragr]

Interesting notice about automatic system of dive recovery for Stuka I found in Helmut Mahlke's book "Stuka Pilot". Btw, this man was Staffelführer of 2(St)./Tr.Gr. 186 (unit intended to use on Graf Zeppelin carrier but moved under the StG 1 command on begin of WWII) during the battle of France. After the France campaign he was appointed to Gruppenkomandeurr of III./StG 1. Thus I think I could use him as a trusted source.

 

"29. August 1940 we had high-ranking visitor. Generaloberst Milch, the Quartermaster-General of the Luftwaffe, arrived in his Fieseler Storch for brief round of talks. They were mainly to do with technical matters and the question of supplies... And what did we think of the new automatic recovery system that was now being installed in production Ju 87s? Not a lot, was the short answer to that. It was useless on operations, as it couldn't be manually overridden. We didn't want it, didn't need it, and had it disconnected on all our new machines the moments they were delivered. Once enemy's Flak gunners cottoned on to the fact that every one of us recovering and climbing away at exactly the same heigh and at exactly the same anglethey would have had an absolute field day. During this most vulnerable phase of our attack we needed full tactical freedom of movement, which is why we preferred to fly by hand. This enable us to twist and turn in all directions and thus gave us a much better chance of being able to dodge whatever Flak was being thrown at us."

 

This is in good correspondence with Rudel's memoirs where he stated many times that he push the release button. 

 

It doesn't mean the Stuka in BoS should be without this system. But it seems the automatic recovery system was more famous due propaganda than it was used by the units in a real operations. 

Edited December 3, 2014 by II./JG1_Pragr

[Bomred]

Requiem has superb tutorial videos in Youtube. This is the one for Stuka ground attack

 

[Zjahna]

I am a flight sim noob and been working on bombing which is easier than trying to down some of the veterans air to air. Identifying ground targets from 2000-3000m I find the hardest especially in expert mode. I have tried all these approaches and found the negative G pushover to be the simplest and most reliable rather than rolling over and losing the target/wrong dive angle. 

 

The default bomb bay key is right Alt N and opens the viewing window. I release quite low and pull back until blackout, this can be done successfully from a very low altitude. Also try not to adjust course significantly for the last 500m of the dive or so otherwise bombs spray. This last point appears to be the key and why I find the pushover more effective.

 

Hope this helps somewhat,

 

Cheers Zj

[III/JG2Gustav05]

Anybody has the information of Stuka bombing accuracy? I found that the bombing is not as accurate as I think with the wind implemented in the game, in some situations, Stuka can even not compensate the wind effect by it's own control surfaces. Another thing I found is that bombing accuracy with >80degree diving angle in strong wind is worse than diving with less diving angle. because the plane is very hard to control in this condition.

[Sokol1]

Even Rudel is not able to pint point in wind conditions, in his book the describe a bridge attack where his bombs fell aside the bridge due to wind, 

then instructed the other group members to aim X meters to the opposite side of the bridge to hit.

 

 

Since these bombs are not laser guided, is matter of trial and error.

[Sokol1]

On August, 18 1940 the Sturzkampfgeschwader 77 was slain during his attack on Poling radar station when are maneuvering to proper attack position.

 

"...could see the streaks of the "white horses" on the surface of the sea: the wind was blowing from the south-west.

To bomb accurately, the Stukas had to attack from dead into wind."

 

"Its only a game", but maybe this tip (from a book) help.

[33lima]

To much hurry to type now but here's a pic that set me on right track.

 

 

I would be interested to know whether there is evidence that rolling inverted into a dive was a normal tactic (as opposed to its use in sims), and what the basis is for believing that peeling off into a dive was just 'staged for the cameras' - the film sequences may very well been, but that is far from evidencing that peeling off wasn't used operationally, as well.

 

Amongst the evidence that either bunting or peeling into a dive was common if not standard practice is this, from 'Luftwaffe Handbook 1939-1945' by Luftwaffe historian Dr Alfred Price:

 

'When approaching their target the Ju 87s would, typically, fly in three-aircraft Vics (Ketten) at about 15,000 feet, cruising at 150 mph...prior to entering his dive the Ju 87 pilot switched on his reflector sight, trimmed the aircraft for a dive, set the pull-out altitude on the contact altimeter, closed the radiator flaps, throttled back the engine and opened the ventilation air supply to the windscreen (to prevent possible misting as the aircraft entered the moist air lower down [now you know what that trunking next to the gunsight is for!]). Finally he switched on the wind-driven 'Screamer' (if required) and opened the dive brakes; the hydraulic operation of the brakes automatically lowered an elevator trim tab, to counter the severe nose-up trim change which would otherwise result. The signal to attack was given by the formation-leader starting his dive [1C to note, please!!!]. For strikes on smaller targets the aircraft would move into echelon during the approach, and peel off and attack in line astern. Against larger targets (for example, harbours or marshalling yards), the dive-bombers would bunt over and attack by Vics; the pilot was able to see directly beneath his aircaft through a small window set in the floor, and so was able to judge when to begin his bunt.'

 

An accompanying diagram of a typical dive attack profile shows no roll inverted, and in fact the annotation for point A, the start of the dive, says 'A -aircraft entered the dive in a bunt.'

 

Because one unit disconnected the dive pullout mechanism doesn't mean they all did. It seems to work well enough in Il-2 '46, in which dropping the dive brakes also initiates your dive (by bunting you from level flight into a dive).

Edited January 9, 2015 by 33lima

[33lima]

PS

 

Rudel describing pressing a button does NOT establish that he was pulling out manually. The reverse, possibly. To quote Dr Price's description again:

 

' Four seconds before the dive bomber passed the pull-out altitude previously set on the contact altimeter, the latter sounded a horn [il-2 '46 simulates this]. When the horn ceased, at release height, the pilot pressed a button on his control column to actuate a powerful spring which returned the elevator trim tab to the neutral position; the aircraft, now in a tail-heavy configuration, began automatically to pull itself out of the dive. The pressing of the button had also started the run-down of the bomb release distributor, and after a set interval the bombs were released automatically; the special radius arm swung the fuselage bomb down and clear of the propeller disc.'

Edited January 9, 2015 by 33lima

[33lima]

Anybody has the information of Stuka bombing accuracy? I found that the bombing is not as accurate as I think with the wind implemented in the game, in some situations, Stuka can even not compensate the wind effect by it's own control surfaces. Another thing I found is that bombing accuracy with >80degree diving angle in strong wind is worse than diving with less diving angle. because the plane is very hard to control in this condition.

 

Alfred Price in 'Luftwaffe Handbook' says 'On the completion of their course at the specialist Dive Bomber School, crews were expected to be able to get fifty percent of their bombs within 25 metres of the centre of the target; the comparable distances for high-flying horizontal bombers were two or three times larger...against operational targets...the errors for all types of bombing were two or even three times as great as those indicated on the training ranges.'

 

The graphic showing a Stuka landing a bomb on a T-34 is clearly fanciful, indeed misleading.

Edited January 9, 2015 by 33lima

[Sim]

Good info 33lima!

 

I have my doubts about the inverted roll over attack as well.. Paul-Werner Hozzell (in Conversations With A Stuka Pilot) described Stuka dive procedures without ever mentioning an inverted roll. He did mention the pilots were trained to drop the bombs within 10 meters radius however.

[33lima]

Good info 33lima!

 

I have my doubts about the inverted roll over attack as well.. Paul-Werner Hozzell (in Conversations With A Stuka Pilot) described Stuka dive procedures without ever mentioning an inverted roll. He did mention the pilots were trained to drop the bombs within 10 meters radius however.

 

Yes i read that too, it's an interesting source. He also mentioned using 'slant range attacks' (or some such phrase) in Russia which makes me think that in certain circumstances, even before the Kanonenvogels arrived, that Stukas sometimes bombed from shallow dives. He does mention going 'beyond the vertical' in describing dive attacks but it's fairly clear that he is talking about momentarily adopting a very steep dive angle (he says 100 degrees) before evening out into a more normal dive angle.

Edited January 9, 2015 by 33lima