From Operation X to the Battle for Berlin (Another "what's Next?" Thread)

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

With BoS I think a Foundation for a Conclusive Series of the Aerial Campaigns of the Eastern Front has been laid with a couple of interesting Campaigns in which Airplanes of each side faced one another. I picked a couple of Campaigns that would make a fair and Fun Game.

 

1. Operation X (1936-1939): The first Encounter of the New Luftwaffe / the Legion Condor, and Russian and French Pilots and Aircraft supplied to the Republicans by the means of Operation X, past the Non-Intervention Agreement. This was like a Training Ground for both Airforces, a Prelude to the Eastern Front. I-16 and D.510 vs. Bf109A-D would be the main Duel. *(optional, although my favourite)

 

2. The Winter War (1939-1940) : Very Similar to the Spanish Civil War, but in Finland and with the Russians being the Aggressors. A bit like Hitler faking polish attacks, Stalin ordered faked Finnish Attacks. The Aircraft on the finnish Side are a much wider Array of Aircraft bought from all over Europe against improved I-16s and the first I-153s which didn't serve in Spain. (optional, but a great Side Campaign)

 

3. Operation Barbarossa and Taifun / Battle For Moscow (1941): The first direct Attack of German Forces on Soviet Territory on an extremely wide Front, with the Help of a large number of Fashist Vassals like Romania, Hungary, Italy and Yugoslavia. The majority of the Soviet Airforce was destroyed on the Ground, but newer Aircraft became available from the Factories far behind the Front Lines, like the MiG-3, LaGG-3 and Yak-1/7 very early models as well as Lend Lease Aircraft including P-40s. The Germans had the 109E and F (non-WEP 1200hp) Models as well as the early Fw190A-1s and A-2s. The Partners contributed Planes like the IAR.80 and MC.202. (Mandatory) This will be an extremely Large Map and lots of missions.

 

4. BoS (1942-1943) (already have that)

 

And Now for the Retreat Missions:

 

5. Battle of Kursk (late 1943): Many will know better about this one than I do (please feel free to contribute), but: Yak-9s, Yak-7s, Yak-1Bs, P-39s, P,40s, La-5F, LaGG-3-66 as well as: Bf109G-4s, G-6s, Fw190A-5

 

5.1: The Winter Battle for the Korsun (Winter 1943-1944). A winter Version, with the same airplanes. (Optional)

 

6. Crimean Offensive (mid 1944): Unfortunately I know very little about it either, so as stated above. Should be extremely balanced concering Technology with Yak-3 and late Yak-9s as well as the La-5FN against 109A-8 and Bf109G-6AMs. Especially on a summer Map around the Kuban.

 

7. The Battle for Berlin (1945): You may have already guessed that I'm know very little about the closing stages of the war, but the Aircraft involved include Fw190Ds, As, as well as Bf109G-6AMs, G-10s, G-14s and K-4s and the Me262s facing Yak-9s, Yak-3s, La-7s and La-5FNs.

 

Is this a good compilation of the Eastern Front? Please feel free to add information and Critizise me if I made errors.

[IIN8II]

I think I remember seeing Loft say that Kuban is one that they were very interested in doing.

 

For me personally all I want is for whatever is next to include the MiG-3

[Yakdriver]

everything from Poland to the nukes.
the order is not important.
 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

everything from Poland to the nukes.

the order is not important.

 

It's not really an important campaign. The more important theater in that theater is the Phoney War and maybe the Battle of Britain. The Winter War and the Spanish Civil War are are the real preludes to the War.

Edited November 2, 2014 by myfabi94

[Yakdriver]

there is not "more important" or "less important" campaign.
we are here because of each campaign - they are all essential.

no spain? no weapons testing.
no poland? russia will stay asleep.

no russia? the russians will take the initiative :D and move west

 

you can not take one ou and pretend "it's not important, so we do not need it" - WWII aviation has only essential scenarios as one thing led to an other thing...

everything.

what next? does not matter.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

Nice ......

 

Chief

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

there is not "more important" or "less important" campaign.

we are here because of each campaign - they are all essential.

 

no spain? no weapons testing.

no poland? russia will stay asleep.

no russia? the russians will take the initiative :D and move west

 

you can not take one ou and pretend "it's not important, so we do not need it" - WWII aviation has only essential scenarios as one thing led to an other thing...

everything.

what next? does not matter.

Russia invaded Poland too. Poland was taken from both sides. That was part of the Non Aggression Pact between Hitler and Stalin. I will include it anyways, I just wasn't sure in the beginning because the aerial combat was very one sided in that one.

 

Edit, Can't edit OP.

Edited November 2, 2014 by myfabi94

[Yakdriver]

yup, i know...
that is why i said " no poland?russia stays asleep", because the poland campaign also woke up the russian military.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

I think in the end it would be very nice, to have every theatre of war covered, of course.

But when i see a lot of people already moaning about the "unbalanced plane setup" in the BoS scenario, those ones -->

 

 

1. Operation X (1936-1939): 2. The Winter War (1939-1940) : 3. Operation Barbarossa and Taifun / Battle For Moscow (1941 

would be a lot worse in this perspective, a lot more onesided, and for the sakes of multiplayer, it would probably get even harder, to get a balanced matchup, in terms of aircraft numbers.

 

For the sakes of multiplayer, and in terms of commercialisation it would be smarter to introduce later scenarios first, where the planes individually get more and more equal in terms of performance.

 

 

 

5. Battle of Kursk (late 1943)

 

In my opinion Kuban would be a lot better scenario then Kursk. Kursk only lasted 2~3 weeks, so you couldn't really make any longer lasting campaign (SP), or any bigger changes in a (semi)historical enduring muliplayer scenario, like in BoS. Kuban therefore would be a perfect successor to BoS, providing a long timeline (almost a year), where a lot of stuff (aircraft setup, frontlines, individual tasks) can/could be changed during a campaign or multiplayer scenario with impact of the battles. It would also add harbors, ships (how nice would it be to bust those transport ships with Stuka/Hs/Il2), probably seaplanes, so a lot more possible diversification.

 

But would be great to see every scenario sometime in the future 

Edited November 2, 2014 by Celestiale

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

yup, i know...

that is why i said " no poland?russia stays asleep", because the poland campaign also woke up the russian military.

I'm not sure I can agree. Both armies had faced one another already, but Barabarossa surprised the Russians. The Russians were taken by surprise and almost defeated. They were asleep.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I think in the end it would be very nice, to have every theatre of war covered, of course.

But when i see a lot of people already moaning about the "unbalanced plane setup" in the BoS scenario, those ones -->

 

 

would be a lot worse in this perspective, a lot more onesided, and for the sakes of multiplayer, it would probably get even harder, to get a balanced matchup, in terms of aircraft numbers.

 

For the sakes of multiplayer, and in terms of commercialisation it would be smarter to introduce later scenarios first, where the planes individually get more and more equal in terms of performance.

 

 

 

 

In my opinion Kuban would be a lot better scenario then Kursk. Kursk only lasted 2~3 weeks, so you couldn't really make any longer lasting campaign (SP), or any bigger changes in a (semi)historical enduring muliplayer scenario, like in BoS. Kuban therefore would be a perfect successor to BoS, providing a long timeline (almost a year), where a lot of stuff (aircraft setup, frontlines, individual tasks) can/could be changed during a campaign or multiplayer scenario with impact of the battles. It would also add harbors, ships (how nice would it be to bust those transport ships with Stuka/Hs/Il2), probably seaplanes, so a lot more possible diversification.

 

But would be see great to see every scenario sometime in the future 

Kuban=Crimean Offensive. The Aircraft I selected should balance one another out.

There were no 109s in the Winter War, but Fiat G.50s, MS.406s and Gloster Gladiators, Buffalos and Fokker DXXIs as well as couple of H-75s Hawks. The I-16s should cancel those out. (Yes, some of them are Continuation War)

Edited November 2, 2014 by myfabi94

[Finkeren]

I would say Operation Bagration or maybe the Kurland battles are missing. Both would be a lot more interesting than a faithful representation of the Battle of Berlin tbh.

 

Another thing I'd really like to see, but which has to my knowledge never been portrayed in a game, is the offensive on the Lower Dniepr in the late summer/autmun of 1943. It has always stood in the shadow of Zitadelle/Kursk, but it was a huge operation, much larger in scale than Kursk and involved some very interesting operations, including the largest paratroop operation on the Eastern Front (which ended badly to say the least) and what must have been the largest landing of troops from boats in history (it wasn't a true amphibian assault, since the troops weren't landed from the sea, so D-Day still holds the ´record for largest amphibian operation, but only due to rigid definitions).

 

A Lower Dniepr scenario would have the Yak-9T and La-5FN in full scale service for the VVS as well as the first 'arrow-wing' IL-2s armed with PTABs. The late battle would also see the first introduction of the Tu-2S. The Germans would have Bf 109G6s, Fw 190A5s and the first F-models, the Hs 129, Bf 110Gs (potentially also Me 410, but I haven't found any sources to suggest, that they were active in that area) in addition to the ever-present Ju 87s and 88s.

 

I think this operation deserves to be covered in a flight sim.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I would say Operation Bagration or maybe the Kurland battles are missing. Both would be a lot more interesting than a faithful representation of the Battle of Berlin tbh.

 

Another thing I'd really like to see, but which has to my knowledge never been portrayed in a game, is the offensive on the Lower Dniepr in the late summer/autmun of 1943. It has always stood in the shadow of Zitadelle/Kursk, but it was a huge operation, much larger in scale than Kursk and involved some very interesting operations, including the largest paratroop operation on the Eastern Front (which ended badly to say the least) and what must have been the largest landing of troops from boats in history (it wasn't a true amphibian assault, since the troops weren't landed from the sea, so D-Day still holds the ´record for largest amphibian operation, but only due to rigid definitions).

 

A Lower Dniepr scenario would have the Yak-9T and La-5FN in full scale service for the VVS as well as the first 'arrow-wing' IL-2s armed with PTABs. The late battle would also see the first introduction of the Tu-2S. The Germans would have Bf 109G6s, Fw 190A5s and the first F-models, the Hs 129, Bf 110Gs (potentially also Me 410, but I haven't found any sources to suggest, that they were active in that area) in addition to the ever-present Ju 87s and 88s.

 

I think this operation deserves to be covered in a flight sim.

That's a Great Idea,

[GP*]

Whatever it ends up being, I'm very excited. I just hope the series sells well enough for BoS to continue to be "filled out," and to warrant follow on games.

[FlatSpinMan]

Interesting post, Finkeren. Your idea sounds really interesting. Do you have a convenient name for me to google? I'd like to know more about that.

[Elbows]

While I've never been concerned over the Stalingrad aspect of this game (this game has always represented the 'Eastern Front' not just Stalingrad for me) I'd prefer to see the game expand in both directions (earlier and later) versions of the Eastern Front.  Skip the Battle of Britain, for the love of God don't take us to the African theater and skip the Western Europe conflicts.

 

I'd rather have a solid cohesive selection of planes and maps covering one large theater rather than several small ones.  Add earlier planes from Russia/Germany....add lend lease...add some new maps such as Kuban area, Crimea, etc.  But give us a huge sandbox/toolkit with which to fight any scenario/time period on the Eastern Front.

 

I'd much prefer to have this front fleshed out with 30+ planes and a 10+ maps instead of giving us additional smaller theaters.  Given the time and effort it takes to create maps and flyable aircraft today, I'd really rather not see any developer time spent on small random expansions.  I do hope they don't give into any balancing measures as well.  Gamers should be mature enough to balance out MP by themselves.

 

Save another large theater for another game (or a large expansion in 2-3 years time to keep the game fresh).  Just please give us scout planes, transport planes, more fighters, more maps for this theater before moving anywhere else.

[Trooper117]

Africa and the Med... a must have, certainly shouldn't be 'skipped'.... it got a very high poll count when reviewed for possible next theatres.

 

As for eastern front... Barbarossa, enough said!

[Tyberan]

Yes please to Battle for Berlin. I want to fly an ME-262 in this sim, so bad.

[A-E-Hartmann]

Africa and the Med... a must have, certainly shouldn't be 'skipped'.... it got a very high poll count when reviewed for possible next theatres.

 

As for eastern front... Barbarossa, enough said!

1+

[LLv44_Mprhead]

This would be cool to have at some point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyborg%E2%80%93Petrozavodsk_Offensive#Vyborg_Offensive It would have FiAF Bf 109 G2 and G6, Brewster Buffalo and Ju 88 (and Blenheim), Luftwaffe Fw 190 A-6 and F-8 and Ju 87 D-5 and all your soviet favorites.

[A-E-Hartmann]

I would say Operation Bagration or maybe the Kurland battles are missing. Both would be a lot more interesting than a faithful representation of the Battle of Berlin tbh.

 

Another thing I'd really like to see, but which has to my knowledge never been portrayed in a game, is the offensive on the Lower Dniepr in the late summer/autmun of 1943. It has always stood in the shadow of Zitadelle/Kursk, but it was a huge operation, much larger in scale than Kursk and involved some very interesting operations, including the largest paratroop operation on the Eastern Front (which ended badly to say the least) and what must have been the largest landing of troops from boats in history (it wasn't a true amphibian assault, since the troops weren't landed from the sea, so D-Day still holds the ´record for largest amphibian operation, but only due to rigid definitions).

 

A Lower Dniepr scenario would have the Yak-9T and La-5FN in full scale service for the VVS as well as the first 'arrow-wing' IL-2s armed with PTABs. The late battle would also see the first introduction of the Tu-2S. The Germans would have Bf 109G6s, Fw 190A5s and the first F-models, the Hs 129, Bf 110Gs (potentially also Me 410, but I haven't found any sources to suggest, that they were active in that area) in addition to the ever-present Ju 87s and 88s.

 

I think this operation deserves to be covered in a flight sim.

 

Russia, Russia blablalbla 

 

There are other front, more interesting.

10 years that we eat .

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Mediterranean Theatre, Balkans etc. Early war! I do not miss Normandy or Berlin or BoB, at all. Better to see something else, less portrayed action

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

S!

 

 Mediterranean Theatre, Balkans etc. Early war! I do not miss Normandy or Berlin or BoB, at all. Better to see something else, less portrayed action

I would love some action in the spanish civil war. No Flightsim ever covered it. A time in which 109s and I-16s fought on even terms.

[Siipiorava]

I'd vote for Continuation war battles from 1941-1942, because it allows for matchups of early russian aircraft (I-16, MiG-3, DB-3) and Variety of planes used by the Finns (Brewster buffaloes, Fiat G50's, Blenheims). It would be also a nice step towards development of Mediterranean theatre, since devs would already have Blenheims and Fiats modeled.

[Finkeren]

Interesting post, Finkeren. Your idea sounds really interesting. Do you have a convenient name for me to google? I'd like to know more about that.

"Lower Dniepr Offensive" should do it.

 

It's really an interesting operation, that perfectly encompasses the immense sacrifice of the long push back towards the the Polish border. I really hope to see the crossing of the Dniepr itself the center of a movie at some point. It would be so intense. Pretty much a month and a half long version of the Omaha Landings in Saving Private Ryan with the state-of-the-art landing crafts replaced by fishing boats, prams, steam ferries and improvised rafts.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I'd vote for Continuation war battles from 1941-1942, because it allows for matchups of early russian aircraft (I-16, MiG-3, DB-3) and Variety of planes used by the Finns (Brewster buffaloes, Fiat G50's, Blenheims). It would be also a nice step towards development of Mediterranean theatre, since devs would already have Blenheims and Fiats modeled.

+1