A coming WW2 TV drama and how to capitalize on it

[Feathered_IV]

It would make a very interesting counterpoint to the 8th Air Force experience if RAF bomber command also got a mention. Just a scene or two.

[YSoMadTovarisch]

It's interesting you should say that, because every Russian film I've seen has portrayed German soldiers like brutish monsters... Even the ones they attempt to make sympathetic are still flawed, whereas the Russian heroes are perfect beacons of humanity...

 

Well most Russians film about WW2 were done during the Soviet time what did you expect?

 

Still about the average German soldiers being brutish monsters this was quite accurate on the Eastern front, there's a reason even most Ukrainians turned against the Germans even thought they initially hailed the Germans as liberators, and there's a reason that out of 30 millions Soviets deads, only 11 millions was military. The holocaust didn't kill only 6 millions Jews you know, and the Wehrmacht wasn't much more innocent than the SS.

Edited November 5, 2014 by GrapeJam

[MarcoRossolini]

Well most Russians film about WW2 were done during the Soviet time what did you expect?

 

Still about the average German soldiers being brutish monsters this was quite accurate on the Eastern front, there's a reason even most Ukrainians turned against the Germans even thought they initially hailed the Germans as liberators, and there's a reason that out of 30 millions Soviets deads, only 11 millions was military. The holocaust didn't kill only 6 millions Jews you know, and the Wehrmacht wasn't much more innocent than the SS.

In this case I'm actually thinking of recent films like the Brest Fortress and the recent Stalingrad film...

 

Well, obviously, but I've read (though I can't confirm it yet) that of those civilian death, a great deal, if not the majority were caused by the Soviets.

Stalin and co were hardly innocent, and its important that Russian films in particular (though I doubt this will happen any time soon) recognise that as well...

[mondog]

Well most Russians film about WW2 were done during the Soviet time what did you expect?

 

Still about the average German soldiers being brutish monsters this was quite accurate on the Eastern front, there's a reason even most Ukrainians turned against the Germans even thought they initially hailed the Germans as liberators, and there's a reason that out of 30 millions Soviets deads, only 11 millions was military. The holocaust didn't kill only 6 millions Jews you know, and the Wehrmacht wasn't much more innocent than the SS.

It's not at all accurate to paint them all with the same brush. Just like it's unfair to say every Soviet soldier was an uneducated peasan or a bolshevik. Many soldiers just did what they could to survive on both sides.

[YSoMadTovarisch]

In this case I'm actually thinking of recent films like the Brest Fortress and the recent Stalingrad film...

 

About Brest Fortress it was, here's a good book about the siege:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Siege-Brest-1941-Resistance-ebook/dp/B00ONZQ5TI

The depiction of the film isn't that far from reality. The film also didn't depict Soviets soldiers as all perfect heroes, hell, the next morning masses of them surrendered, and our hero shot the German soldier who spared him and his girlfriend.

 

Stalingrad was Hollywoodified crap.

 

Well, obviously, but I've read (though I can't confirm it yet) that of those civilian death, a great deal, if not the majority were caused by the Soviets.

Stalin and co were hardly innocent, and its important that Russian films in particular (though I doubt this will happen any time soon) recognise that as well...

 

This again?

Stalin was an evil bastard but he wasn't stupid enough to massacre his own population when he desperately needed their support.

 

It's not at all accurate to paint them all with the same brush. Just like it's unfair to say every Soviet soldier was an uneducated peasan or a bolshevik. Many soldiers just did what they could to survive on both sides.

Of course not all German soldiers on the Eastern fronts were monster, but a good percentage of them were, otherwise the partisan movement wouldn't be so widespread(the resistance movement in Western Europe was pitiful by comparison). The war on the Eastern front was extremely fierce and brutal it's not surprising that good men were easily turned into monsters(the constant stress of combat, high attrition rate, seeing so many of your friends killed have a good way of turning you into one).

Edited November 5, 2014 by GrapeJam

[Wulf]

During WW 2, the German Field Army was expected to live, to the fullest extent possible, off the land it occupied.  This meant expropriating the food reserves of the local population.  In a place like Russia where food was not always so plentiful, and the winters were harsh, this meant the locals starved to death - often in their hundreds of thousands.  This state of affairs suited the Nazi hierarchy, as it provided these unwanted inhabitants with an incentive to leave their homes and move further East.  Some people were, of course, to be retained as slave labour in essential industries but all the rest were regarded as an unwelcome and unjustifiable drain on the resources of the Reich. 

[FlatSpinMan]

Need to tread carefully on this topic guys. People are so far, but its hard to discuss this kind of thing without incident on a diverse (and cranky) forum.

[Rjel]

Band of Brothers could portray them (the Germans) neutrally because as I recall they hardly enter into the series as characters: you get a couple of captured soldiers enjoying a cigarette before they are executed, a young soldier surprised in battle etc. So given the context that they are really only extras, they can be neutral.

 

It's been 3-4 years since I last watched Band of Brothers but wasn't that scene only hinted at? I'm certain it didn't show any prisoners being executed at that point. It was even spoken about in another episode where the character in question who supposedly did the shooting dismissed it as rumor. Later in the series, there was a scene where two captured German were shot by a French (I think) officer.

[=LD=Hethwill]

The old Black Sheep series wasn't that bad, if we start digging the TV series based on WW2 air war, Twelve o'Clock High is entertaining as well. All in good old war flick style.

 

Recently I bumped into some russian productions, and the Attackers ain't that bad - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=ELnCR7w3ASf6A

 

As someone said up there, the guys ain't making a documentary but a entertainment series with as much credibility as they can.

 

Having a wrong dial in the cockpit is as interesting as having a guy wearing a watch in a roman era movie

[unreasonable]

It's been 3-4 years since I last watched Band of Brothers but wasn't that scene only hinted at? I'm certain it didn't show any prisoners being executed at that point. It was even spoken about in another episode where the character in question who supposedly did the shooting dismissed it as rumor. Later in the series, there was a scene where two captured German were shot by a French (I think) officer.

 

TBH I do not remember exactly - I think that what happened was that a couple of enlisted men were chatting to the prisoners, swapping pictures etc when one of the officers appeared and told the GIs to carry on doing something else. We follow them round the corner of the hedgerow and then hear a burst of gunfire.

 

Trouble is that we see so many movies and series that they can eventually meld in the brain, especially when you get old and start going gaga.

[Gambit21]

The old Black Sheep series wasn't that bad, 

Funny you mention that. I have fond memories of watching this show with my Dad as a kid.

However, I caught an episode for the first time in maybe 30 years just last week.

 

By todays' standards It's soooo unrealistic - I mean zero attention to historical accuracy.

In this episode the Blacksheep were flying captured Japanese aircraft and attacked and sunk a Japanese carrier.

The carrier was of course alone - not part of a carrier group with destroyers etc. Nevermind that never happened in any fashion.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's was good for what it was at the time, but it doesn't hold up IMHO. 

Now Hogans Heroes on the other hand - that show still does it's job/makes me laugh.  

It's been 3-4 years since I last watched Band of Brothers but wasn't that scene only hinted at?

Correct

[Gambit21]

...oh and don't take me the wrong way Khan, I wasn't ripping on you liking the show.

It's just funny how perceptions change after so many years.

[unreasonable]

Yes that is right, (BoB) I have just looked at the youtube extract and  it is shown as an event concurrently with GIs talking about it, so it is a little ambiguous about whether the scene represents reality or just the GI's imaginations. My memory at fault again!

 

Quite a clever way of getting the issue in to the series with deniability if the usual suspects claim that this is besmirching the honour of fine fighting men etc.

[Elbows]

TBH I do not remember exactly - I think that what happened was that a couple of enlisted men were chatting to the prisoners, swapping pictures etc when one of the officers appeared and told the GIs to carry on doing something else. We follow them round the corner of the hedgerow and then hear a burst of gunfire.

 

Trouble is that we see so many movies and series that they can eventually meld in the brain, especially when you get old and start going gaga.

 

I believe he's referring to the episode where Winters has a flash-back of surprising some German infantry in Belgium/Holland.  Winters shoots the first German he sees, a young soldier who is caught unaware.

[PantsPilot]

WW2 should not be remembered by the way Hollywood chooses to portray it but rather by the way it really was. The USA was only one of many combatants and it should be remembered that America had the lowest casualty figures of any of the major nations involved, as well as only participating from 1942 (in real terms Dec 41) until 1945.

Yet according to Hollywood/HBO etc. the US virtually won the war single-handed and produced the only heroes of the period - arrogant hokum! 

Lets not turn this ground-breaking and refreshing combat flight sim into another US re-write of history please.

Remember the real air war 1939-45 as it really was and keep things historical and balanced. I think there is actually a silent majority out there who are interested in every aspect of WW2 air combat, not just planes carrying the stars and stripes, lets cater for everybody not just the loud and numerous on forums such as this.   

[=LD=Hethwill]

...oh and don't take me the wrong way Khan, I wasn't ripping on you liking the show.

It's just funny how perceptions change after so many years.

 

I don't sir

I understand completely and some of the youngsters always twitch their nose at those oldies until i force them to see Kelly's Heroes, then they change for better ahahah  

 

I'm a old war flick fan so it is easy to see how cheesy they are, but then the "dramatization" of nowadays with the "personal conflicts" has become the war flick cheesiness of nowadays.

Edited November 6, 2014 by =LD=Hethwill_Khan

[Finkeren]

Yes that is right, (BoB) I have just looked at the youtube extract and  it is shown as an event concurrently with GIs talking about it, so it is a little ambiguous about whether the scene represents reality or just the GI's imaginations. My memory at fault again!

 

Quite a clever way of getting the issue in to the series with deniability if the usual suspects claim that this is besmirching the honour of fine fighting men etc.

 

Not to mention that it's just a very interesting mode of narrative to keep it ambiguous. I think it's one of the more interesting storylines in Band of Brothers (I've never been a particularly huge fan of that series) and it captures quite well, just how narrow a perspective each soldier has on the war and how quickly rumors spread.

[Rjel]

WW2 should not be remembered by the way Hollywood chooses to portray it but rather by the way it really was. The USA was only one of many combatants and it should be remembered that America had the lowest casualty figures of any of the major nations involved, as well as only participating from 1942 (in real terms Dec 41) until 1945.

Yet according to Hollywood/HBO etc. the US virtually won the war single-handed and produced the only heroes of the period - arrogant hokum! 

Lets not turn this ground-breaking and refreshing combat flight sim into another US re-write of history please.

Remember the real air war 1939-45 as it really was and keep things historical and balanced. I think there is actually a silent majority out there who are interested in every aspect of WW2 air combat, not just planes carrying the stars and stripes, lets cater for everybody not just the loud and numerous on forums such as this.   

 

And honestly, that sort of slant on history is just as skewed as one who thinks the U.S. did win the war alone. I don't think anyone could express it any better than did General Eisenhower in 1964 on the 20th anniversary of D-Day.

 

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

 

Yet according to Hollywood/HBO etc. the US virtually won the war single-handed and produced the only heroes of the period - arrogant hokum! 

Lets not turn this ground-breaking and refreshing combat flight sim into another US re-write of history please.

 

 

Strange - I had never heard that before, except for tongue in cheek references.

[Chuck_Owl]

Chuck have you done any How-To-Get-Her-Up videos for the DCS Dora? Several of us are still wrestling with this lady.

 

Chief

 

You bet.   Best piece of advice I can give is to lock your tailwheel by pulling back on the stick when you're on the ground. On takeoff, you'll be amazed to see how straight that bird can go. However, you must remember to center the stick (release it to idle state) once you reach 170 km/h. In practice, it handles very similarly to the BoS FW190A-3.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=128890&highlight=guides

Edited November 7, 2014 by 71st_AH_Chuck

[FlatSpinMan]

Rjel - that was a very good clip you posted. I liked near the end when he said something like "These boys gave us a chance. They bought us time [to find a way to live in peace]". You could see how affected he was when recalling D-Day. It must have been awesome (in the true sense) to have to order something on the scale of a WW2 operation, knowing, as he mentioned, that hundreds or thousands of young men would be killed or maimed.

 

To all - please lay off the XYZ won the war alone rubbish. No-one believes that one country won it in that way. Anyone saying that is looking to provoke a response. Ignore it.