A coming WW2 TV drama and how to capitalize on it

[[KWN]T-oddball]

I think it's a little unfair to pin point the youth of today for not knowing how the air war in Europe, the Pacific or even on the Eastern Front went. Honestly, can any of us say we would were it not an interest? How many here know (without Googling it) the history of steam locomotion? It could be argued that was a turning point in human history also. World War Two and its airwar isn't any more relevant to the youth of today than is steam power to most of us.

 

Except you can trace the modern battlefield right back to WW2, You could catch the interest of kids these days who are into "modern warfare" if  you showed them where those Assault rifles came from (Arguable) STG44 even look at what the STG45 went on to influence  , show them how the first TOW missile , AAM and SAM came about, how about the origins of the modern day cruise misslie .

 

How about the whiskey and Zulu class subs that were based on the type21"Elektroboote" , it would be really interesting if this ww2 drama was preceded by a 4 hour mini series explaining the influence and evolution of the modern day battlefield and tracing certain key features back to their origin in WW2 , after all     Watson's "Whizzers" Operation LUSTY (LUftwaffe Secret TechnologY) were not just our site seeing

 

this one of my favorite "weird evolutions" of ww2 tech http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Sherman

Edited November 2, 2014 by T-oddball

[Cybermat47]

Judging from the reactions of some people in this thread, saying I like Band of Brothers could result in a flame war

 

Just because HBO is making a serried about the 8th AF doesn't mean it's going to be a propaganda series. We all knew that Spielberg and Hanks were doing this, and chances are it'll be like (is an ant biting me right now? Feels like an ant, and Dylan told me there were ants in this part of the room) Band of Brothers, which was hardly a propaganda series. Some Americans were anti-semitic, (hey, it is an ant!)

and one of them massacred a group of German POWs. Not to mention that Germans were portrayed as, for the most part, being a lot like the Americans. I think this new series will be great.

[Gambit21]

I've been waiting for a show like this for a long time - I'm happy to hear this news.

Perfect subject matter, and hopefully they'll do Band of Brother's justice.

 

I'd love to see a mini-series about the Pacific air war, especially the early days/Guadalcanal/Henderson.

Even if it were from the Japanese perspective - that would be epic. Centered on a few zero pilots

flying with the 11th Air Flotilla out of Rabaul.

 

Anyhoo, 8th AF is a perfect choice, just not the only perfect choice. 

[Scott_Steiner]

Yes, I am sure a lot of people will like to dive straight into a hard-core simulation after watching a TV show that will most likely be full of historical errors and wonder-woman plane physics on par with the best of Discovery's Dog Fight series.

 

Maybe War Thunder would have a slight chance at this market, but Il-2 BOS or DCS? Not a chance in hell.

 

Either there are a ton of people in here that are clueless to how marketing actually works or they are delusional that playing a flight-sim such as this, is close enough to an a typical video game and average video-gamer. I'm sure you think you looked dressed well wearing sweat pants and a "Who's Farted?" T-Shirt to a business meeting too.

 

Even if a few people get excited and interested in WWII aviation because of some show that is going to have horrible and cheap looking CG, the amount would not be remotely close enough to change the whole production plane for Battle of Stalingrad. These people getting interested would need to start at something much simpler to not get turned off.. Either you are already interested in WWII by the time you try BOS and have flown other things, or you are going to want to dip your feet with something simpler, the market just isn't here.

 

Also, we need to build theaters based on what we already have in the Stalingrad map. You need to pick another theater that overlaps the previous made one so you can share some of the assets, notably the aircraft already featured. What's nice about the German aircraft is that most of them were used on both fronts of the war and multiple theaters. Developing a bunch of 109 G-Late variants, the K and later model 190 A's and D's, does not help fill out the plane set and ride choice when we are rocking 1942 aircraft. It's best to find an adjacent theater or slightly later or earlier time frame that shares some of these aircraft. No marketing for a hokey TV show and changing the production plan will make up for the amounts lost on creating something that doesn't tie in with the current assets of the game.

 

Also I am an american but I really hope we see that Western Europe late-war theater really really late in the production run. There are just too many great theaters and neglected aircraft that could be created that haven't been around since the original IL-2. Plus the idea of really only flying a Jug, Mustang or Lightning as a US pilot get's old quick.  I'm all for more eastern front add-ons at this point.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Scott_Steiner

[Rjel]

Not to mention that Germans were portrayed as, for the most part, being a lot like the Americans. I think this new series will be great.

Not really surprising considering one study claims 26% of White Americans have German ancestry, myself included.

[Bearcat]

Look.. some of the stuff in this thread just needs to be toned back a bit. You don't want to see another U.S. based miniseries then you have two choices.. Either don't watch it or make your own.. but all this extra commentary only serves to create conflict so knock it off.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Found the trailer. Looks very interesting.

 

Nope, this is an independent (student?) film trailer. Not the HBO trailer. I don't think a full movie has been made, just the trailer.

Yes, I am sure a lot of people will like to dive straight into a hard-core simulation after watching a TV show that will most likely be full of historical errors and wonder-woman plane physics on par with the best of Discovery's Dog Fight series.

 

Maybe War Thunder would have a slight chance at this market, but Il-2 BOS or DCS? Not a chance in hell.

 

Either there are a ton of people in here that are clueless to how marketing actually works or they are delusional that playing a flight-sim such as this, is close enough to an a typical video game and average video-gamer. I'm sure you think you looked dressed well wearing sweat pants and a "Who's Farted?" T-Shirt to a business meeting too.

 

Even if a few people get excited and interested in WWII aviation because of some show that is going to have horrible and cheap looking CG, the amount would not be remotely close enough to change the whole production plane for Battle of Stalingrad. These people getting interested would need to start at something much simpler to not get turned off.. Either you are already interested in WWII by the time you try BOS and have flown other things, or you are going to want to dip your feet with something simpler, the market just isn't here.

 

Also, we need to build theaters based on what we already have in the Stalingrad map. You need to pick another theater that overlaps the previous made one so you can share some of the assets, notably the aircraft already featured. What's nice about the German aircraft is that most of them were used on both fronts of the war and multiple theaters. Developing a bunch of 109 G-Late variants, the K and later model 190 A's and D's, does not help fill out the plane set and ride choice when we are rocking 1942 aircraft. It's best to find an adjacent theater or slightly later or earlier time frame that shares some of these aircraft. No marketing for a hokey TV show and changing the production plan will make up for the amounts lost on creating something that doesn't tie in with the current assets of the game.

 

Also I am an american but I really hope we see that Western Europe late-war theater really really late in the production run. There are just too many great theaters and neglected aircraft that could be created that haven't been around since the original IL-2. Plus the idea of really only flying a Jug, Mustang or Lightning as a US pilot get's old quick.  I'm all for more eastern front add-ons at this point.

HBO got Band of Brothers right. The Pacific was pretty but I just didn't like the narrative style. No reason to get so down on it before we even see a trailer.

 

If I were doing an non-American serial I'd probably do something with the Luftwaffe - night fighters perhaps.

Edited November 3, 2014 by HerrMurf

[Wulf]

Found the trailer. Looks very interesting.

 

 

 

OMG, that was beyond diabolical!!   Not only did the 8th not visit 'the Fatherland' until 1943, and even then, not till mid-late 1943 as I recall, but, .. flak so thick a sparrow couldn't get through it?, aircrew having 'conversations' without intercom?? more German fighters in the air than US bombers ?? no noticeable loss of airspeed despite the Fort losing a motor, aircrew who seemed to have no idea what the hell they were doing or where they were supposed to be.  OMG!  I don't know who put that little comedy routine together but he/she/they should be taken out and shot.

[pilotpierre]

I dont think I will be watching that. Extremely amateurish and far fetched (going by the trailer) compared with The Band of Brothers.

[YSoMadTovarisch]

A TV series on the VVS during WW2 will have a lot of potential for drama and full of tear jerking moments, with the high attrition rate VVS units suffered, it baffled me why Russia's never done a high budget movie about airmen, instead we got crap like Stalingrad(the 2013 movie) on the screen.

Edited November 3, 2014 by GrapeJam

[MarcoRossolini]

I think it's a little unfair to pin point the youth of today for not knowing how the air war in Europe, the Pacific or even on the Eastern Front went. Honestly, can any of us say we would were it not an interest? How many here know (without Googling it) the history of steam locomotion? It could be argued that was a turning point in human history also. World War Two and its airwar isn't any more relevant to the youth of today than is steam power to most of us.

 

When in doubt, blame young people eh?

[Feathered_IV]

One of the big strengths of Band of Brothers was that they didn't hold the viewers hand. They dropped you into the story without awkwardly trying to work the history of WW2 into the script. You were left to fit the pieces together yourself and the journey was all the more rewarding for it.

 

Hopefully this Masters if the Air will not be aimed squarely at the most disinterested booby in the street like so many other films of its kind.

[=LD=Hethwill]

Spot on about BofB Feathered. Even non WW2 or military history aficionados say it is one of the best series ever, exactly for that reason.

[unreasonable]

Also BoB was refreshingly devoid of the sort of ham fisted direction, bad acting and melodramatic sound track we often get in US productions, simultaneously bombastic and sentimental.  Unlike the Pacific, which I could only stand for one episode.

[Y-29.Silky]

I'm sorry but I've been playing IL-2 since it came out 15 years ago, and from then on, the only thing that was not from the Eastern Front, was Pacific Fighters. The only good Western Front games were Janes WWII Fighters in 1997, and MSCFS, in 2002ish? Ever since then its all been about the Eastern Front, besides Clod. And the Western EU campaigns in 1946 are comparable to the campaign in BoS.

 

So its been roughly going on 15 years since we've seen a solid Western Front combat air game. Like I've said before, I'm not the only one who is getting burned out from 15 years on the Eastern Front.

 

And ffs, please cut the "errors' and "America propaganda" bs, there are just as many in shit like "Generation War", you look just as bad when you mention it...

Edited November 3, 2014 by Silky

[Feathered_IV]

Also BoB was refreshingly devoid of the sort of ham fisted direction, bad acting and melodramatic sound track we often get in US productions, simultaneously bombastic and sentimental.  Unlike the Pacific, which I could only stand for one episode.

 

"Can someone tell me why we're fightin again?"

 

Tall marine-guy steps forward and solemnly recites some poetry in which the word honour and/or glory figures heavily

 

Other marines pull grave expressions and nod in unison...

[StG77_Kondor]

Can't we all just buy some popcorn and enjoy the best movie ever, 'Fury'?

 

Brad Pitt + MP44 + Panzerfausts that are stopped by a human torso + Sherman going behind a Tiger even though the Tiger could've just turned and smoked Brad's Sherman? /sarc

[I/JG27_Rollo]

The only good Western Front games were Janes WWII Fighters in 1997, and MSCFS, in 2002ish?

Ahem... European Air War would like to have a serious word with you.

Edited November 3, 2014 by I/JG27_Rollo

[II./JG27_Rich]

Nah. Eastern theatre sucks. Crap planes.

Stop watching The History/Fantasy Channel

 

Edited November 3, 2014 by II./JG27_Rich

[=LD=Hethwill]

Can't we all just buy some popcorn and enjoy the best movie ever, 'Fury'?

 

Brad Pitt + MP44 + Panzerfausts that are stopped by a human torso + Sherman going behind a Tiger even though the Tiger could've just turned and smoked Brad's Sherman? /sarc

 

These gentlemen want to have a chat with that Brad Pitt fella' about irony and stopping them big cats... no need for Fury. 

 

Edited November 3, 2014 by =LD=Hethwill_Khan

[LLv44_Mprhead]

I dont think I will be watching that. Extremely amateurish and far fetched (going by the trailer) compared with The Band of Brothers.

 

Why would you compare that to The Band of Brothers?

[Rjel]

Also BoB was refreshingly devoid of the sort of ham fisted direction, bad acting and melodramatic sound track we often get in US productions, simultaneously bombastic and sentimental.  Unlike the Pacific, which I could only stand for one episode.

Sorry but I think BoB was a poorly made film. Even by 1960s standards. The British came off very well, as they should have considering the talent used. But the Germans were cartoonish. The Goring character especially.

 

I think BoB fell into the same trap by trying to tell too much of the story. Read Squadron Airborne sometime. That book would've made a tremendous Battle of Britain movie.

[Gambit21]

Can't we all just buy some popcorn and enjoy the best movie ever, 'Fury'?

 

Brad Pitt + MP44 + Panzerfausts that are stopped by a human torso + Sherman going behind a Tiger even though the Tiger could've just turned and smoked Brad's Sherman? /sarc

Nope, they actually did it right,

The Tiger moved much more slowly, and the gun transversed much more slowly.

[StG77_Kondor]

Nope, they actually did it right,

The Tiger moved much more slowly, and the gun transversed much more slowly.

 

Correct the turret of the Tiger isn't the fastest in the world. A Tiger commander worth anything would move the left track forward, right track back, this is what I meant. The Sherman would never be able to get behind the Tiger by itself without damaging it first. 

 

Generally speaking, Tiger and Panther crews were well trained in the weaknesses of their tanks, ie getting outflanked by Shermans and hit from more vulnerable angles. Even at the end of the war most crews had at least one or two seasoned veterans, with veteran drivers and gunners being the most sought after. Couple this with the fact that a high number of Tiger commanders and crewmen came from StuGs, I find it farcical that the Tiger 'went down' like that. But it's just a movie! For many things the movie did wrong - it did a good number of small details correctly. The scene in the beginning when the Waffen SS prisoner was brought it was a carbon copy of the picture of the captured 12th SS HJ's outside of Caen. 

 

 

More believable would've been an assault by multiple Shermans (how the engagement started), and having a few of them able to outmaneuver him into a more vulnerable position where one of the Shermans would be able to land a hit from the rear. That scene looked like some World of Tanks shenanigans. 

 

Haha, can you tell I've had enough of reading about SP, unlock threads?

Edited November 3, 2014 by StG77_Kondor

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

To understand The Pacific, you have to read the three books upon which the series was based. Doing that changes your understanding completely.

 

Band of Brothers' value was the portrayal of leadership.

The overriding principal of movie making, however, is you should not need to know the source material to understand the movie. The movie should be able to stand on it's own. Band of Brothers did this well. The Pacific did not.

[mondog]

Sorry but I think BoB was a poorly made film. Even by 1960s standards. The British came off very well, as they should have considering the talent used. But the Germans were cartoonish. The Goring character especially.

 

I think BoB fell into the same trap by trying to tell too much of the story. Read Squadron Airborne sometime. That book would've made a tremendous Battle of Britain movie.

 

According to Steinhoff, Goring was a cartoon character. All told, it was a pretty good film. Galland said his only real problem with it was they didn't use real names. 

[Wulf]

Stop watching The History/Fantasy Channel

 

 

 

 Wow .... okay, so a Yak 3 could do "500 mph" and the "Luftwaff" didn't engage them below 5K because "they would be shot down" ....  Sounds like money was no object when they went looking for an expert.

[Wulf]

Sorry but I think BoB was a poorly made film. Even by 1960s standards. The British came off very well, as they should have considering the talent used. But the Germans were cartoonish. The Goring character especially.

 

I think BoB fell into the same trap by trying to tell too much of the story. Read Squadron Airborne sometime. That book would've made a tremendous Battle of Britain movie.

 

 

It was interesting is the sense that it incorporated original (albeit modified in some cases) aircraft but yeah, odd that most of the airmen appeared to be in their 40s and 50s and I swear to God, a couple were actually using Zimmer frames.  And yeah, it tried to do far too much.  Every cliche was rolled-out and waved about for all to see.  And as you say, Goring was presented as a clown when in reality, although somewhat eccentric, was in fact something of an intellect.  It should also be remembered that Galland (who was apparently despised by late war rank and file Luftwaffe fighter pilots) had his own reasons for openly disparaging Goring and elevating his own role and contribution.  

[Gambit21]

Correct the turret of the Tiger isn't the fastest in the world. A Tiger commander worth anything would move the left track forward, right track back, this is what I meant. The Sherman would never be able to get behind the Tiger by itself without damaging it first. 

 

Generally speaking, Tiger and Panther crews were well trained in the weaknesses of their tanks, ie getting outflanked by Shermans and hit from more vulnerable angles. Even at the end of the war most crews had at least one or two seasoned veterans, with veteran drivers and gunners being the most sought after. Couple this with the fact that a high number of Tiger commanders and crewmen came from StuGs, I find it farcical that the Tiger 'went down' like that. But it's just a movie! For many things the movie did wrong - it did a good number of small details correctly. The scene in the beginning when the Waffen SS prisoner was brought it was a carbon copy of the picture of the captured 12th SS HJ's outside of Caen. 

 

 

More believable would've been an assault by multiple Shermans (how the engagement started), and having a few of them able to outmaneuver him into a more vulnerable position where one of the Shermans would be able to land a hit from the rear. That scene looked like some World of Tanks shenanigans. 

 

Haha, can you tell I've had enough of reading about SP, unlock threads?

Ahh...I see what you mean.

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

but I talked with the tanker old guy that was left, he showed up at the theater, and he said pretty much that was all true about maneuvering the tanks. against the Tigers. So the movie is dead on.

[StG77_Kondor]

but I talked with the tanker old guy that was left, he showed up at the theater, and he said pretty much that was all true about maneuvering the tanks. against the Tigers. So the movie is dead on.

 

Lol. I never said that's NOT how you beat the Tiger. That's the only thing the Shermans could do was outmaneuver it. Read again what I said. In a 1v1 situation like that, and at that close range the Tiger would've just kept turning and not let the Sherman get behind him.

 

The movie is OK. It has it's good things and bad things. It is not 'dead on'.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

And nobody's blaming you, mate. If you think pressing a single key to start the aircraft is just difficult enough for you, well as long as you still have fun I don't have a problem with it. Everyone's entitled to his own opinion.

 

But I must tell you...

 

I don't believe in something being "too complex" nor time-consuming. You'd be surprised to see how many people I "trained" in the A-10, Huey, Mi-8, P-51 and FW190. Even people who had no prior knowledge of how the aircraft was operated. Most of the time, I can get a trainee up in the air and autonomous in about 15 minutes in a short 1 on 1 conversation on teamspeak. Most of the time, I can explain "complex" aircraft by using simple terms and people understand almost right away. This is why I like to write guides: you figure out things on your own and then you find a simple way to explain how the aircraft works and how it must be operated. I try to keep my guides brief, to the point and you get to know what you need to know without having to read a technical novel.

 

For me, complexity is an illusion: most of the time it's just a simple thing that hasn't been explained to you in terms you can understand.

 

Chuck have you done any How-To-Get-Her-Up videos for the DCS Dora? Several of us are still wrestling with this lady.

 

Chief

[Gambit21]

OK - should I go ahead and dowlnoad that baby Chief?
I purchsed the Dora, but with so little stick time I haven't bothered with it. I haven't even dowloaded DCS world yet.

I was waiting for a map first.

[unreasonable]

Sorry but I think BoB was a poorly made film. Even by 1960s standards. The British came off very well, as they should have considering the talent used. But the Germans were cartoonish. The Goring character especially.

 

I think BoB fell into the same trap by trying to tell too much of the story. Read Squadron Airborne sometime. That book would've made a tremendous Battle of Britain movie.

Sorry, when I said "BoB" I actually meant Band of Brothers, understandable that you should think "Battle of Britain". On that, I thought it was an OK movie, not great, obviously the more you know about aviation the more irritating some aspects become. Great introduction though, you have to admit. As for cartoonish Germans: well it is hard to depict someone who dresses his obese form in a pink LW uniform without being cartoonish!

 

Best war movie of all time? Lawrence of Arabia.

[Wulf]

Lol. I never said that's NOT how you beat the Tiger. That's the only thing the Shermans could do was outmaneuver it. Read again what I said. In a 1v1 situation like that, and at that close range the Tiger would've just kept turning and not let the Sherman get behind him.

 

The movie is OK. It has it's good things and bad things. It is not 'dead on'.

 

 

I've watched maybe 20 minutes of the movie so perhaps it got better as it went along, I don't know; but I found it just too dreadful to watch.   From Brad's suitably ethnically diverse and decidedly long-in-the-tooth tank crew to his one dimensional utterances about nat-zees, to his unshakable resolve - I just had to walk away.  I assume from the other comments here that ace nat-zee exterminator Brad (the Bradorator) went on to bamboozle the unimaginative and overly predictable Germans (having already taught them a painful lesson in Tunisia after they calling his 'Mom' a whore) and  win the day against impossible odds in his totally inadequate M4 'tommy cooker'.   Go Brad go, you the man....

 

What a shame Brad wasn't around in 1944 to show the allies how to get the job done.  

[Gambit21]

As someone who's familiar with the history, and the little in's and out's of armored combat during the era - I think they did a pretty good job.

I also think Pitt did a good job - but he always does a good job IMHO.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

The biggest surprise was that Shia LaDouche did a commendable job and I only saw his character and not the actor throughout.

[Wulf]

As someone who's familiar with the history, and the little in's and out's of armored combat during the era - I think they did a pretty good job.

I also think Pitt did a good job - but he always does a good job IMHO.

 

 

I have one word for you Gambit ...."Troy"  (was that Pitt in there or was it Pinocchio??)

 

Anyway, God's work now done I rest my case....

[Rjel]

Sorry, when I said "BoB" I actually meant Band of Brothers, understandable that you should think "Battle of Britain". On that, I thought it was an OK movie, not great, obviously the more you know about aviation the more irritating some aspects become. Great introduction though, you have to admit. As for cartoonish Germans: well it is hard to depict someone who dresses his obese form in a pink LW uniform without being cartoonish!

 

Best war movie of all time? Lawrence of Arabia.

Oh....

 

There goes my promising career as a movie reviewer. Can't even keep the damn movies straight.

[[KWN]T-oddball]

I have not seen the movie yet, but I do know that both American and British had standing orders for what to do when a tiger was encountered, send 4-5 Shermans and hope one comes back . The whole thing about the tiger was that it was not everywhere , it was used for special situations.

 

Both tanks used in the film — the Sherman M4A3E8 and the Tiger 131 — are real, and belong to the Tank Museum in Bovington, England.