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Dogfighting tutorial? Does it exist for this SIM?


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Posted (edited)

Hello all,

 

 

I am an amazing pilot. I have landed my plane with heavy damage, no power/short final, no aileron controls, heavy smoke you name it. I can fly the plane great! My airfield safety is excellent. I never shoulder shoot either. I very RARELY stall too.

 

MY SHORTFALL is actually fighting. In the early stages of the game I used to get about 0-4 kills per match on Expert mode (everyone has since become more skilled). I can hunt pretty good (spotting/recognition) but It always seems the other guy is faster and can maneuver better than I can no matter how much speed I carry. And it always seems like I am shooting water. My bullets barely do anything.

 

When I fly German it seems like the Russian planes can turn, bank and roll like Bi-planes and they have endless energy. It is the same when I fly Russian against German. I was wondering if I make a video and post it here if any of you can watch it and help me?

 

THX,

 

 

Isaac

Edited by KOTP_SPEKTRE76
  • Like 1
Posted

Better find a team with a good instructor-pilot.

 

On this forum there is a lot of people who (only) "think" they are good or imagine that they know virtual combat issues...

So there is 90 percent probablility that someone will come and reapeat the same empty theory about virtual combat... plus there is 90% probability that this guy will not have any idea what he is talking about...

 

Devil is hidden in details.

  • Upvote 2
Posted

I'm quite dangerous in single player mode and my deflection works fine. I get many fighter kills.

In multiplayer I can't hit anything despite using the same deflection and distances. My suspicion is that there's network lag at the root of it, maybe. Other flyers shoot ME down with sickening inevitability and with great ease ... which irritates.

Posted (edited)

Lots of knowledge on here Spektre - don't listen to Blakhart's garble about the guy's here.

 

I could talk about energy and such but I recommend you watch Requeim's RoF videos as a start, the same basic ideas apply

to BoS. It all starts with energy management and situational awareness.

Edited by Gambit21
Posted

I know SYN_Requiem is working on something along these lines. A series of dogfighting videos is him aim. Afaik it is using DCS rather than BoS because of the freecam support or some such. Will let you know.

Posted

Well said Blakart, and the fact that there's so many scenarios during dogfights.

 

And thanks for the share pavig!

[KWN]T-oddball
Posted

I am sorry to say, but to say "amazing" and then "never shoulder shoot" and "rarely stall" leads me to think that

A) you DO shoulder shoot, else you would not insist you don't
B) you DO stall, else you would not say you don't

 

Your frustration leads you to shoulder shoot, or to shoot in a dangerous way.
Amazing Pilots do not stall, never. And if , then on purpose and then it's not worth mentioning.

 

Please pardon me, but you can not say "i rock" and then proceed to expose your important faults like that.
It is not coherent and takes away the "i rock" element.

Posted

Spectre, make a video, or what is even better (and easier) is if you upload a track and I'm sure there will be plenty of people who will check it out. There are lots of people out there, including myself, who love looking at things from other people's perspectives.

 

I know SYN_Requiem is working on something along these lines. A series of dogfighting videos is him aim. Afaik it is using DCS rather than BoS because of the freecam support or some such. Will let you know.

Correct mate. The first one will be out this weekend. I kept the topic simple though so I could use it to get familiar with DCS and it's view system, so don't expect the world to shatter :P

 

 

dogfighting is a general skill not  game specific.

 

As T-Oddball says, dogfighting principles don't need to be game specific, it's just the manner in which they are demonstrated that is the most important. The stuff you need to learn is the relative aircraft matchups so you can apply what you know in the most effective way.

Posted

Better find a team with a good instructor-pilot.

 

On this forum there is a lot of people who (only) "think" they are good or imagine that they know virtual combat issues...

So there is 90 percent probablility that someone will come and reapeat the same empty theory about virtual combat... plus there is 90% probability that this guy will not have any idea what he is talking about...

 

Devil is hidden in details.

Yeah, don't ask me...I suck at virtual air-to-air. Just ask Requiem.

Posted

As Gambit21 said, it all comes down to 'energy management and situational awareness' and I guess timing and marksmanship as well.

 

You can read about these things of course and you should, but that won't make you proficient.  You need to get an understanding of the basics and then get out there and build your experience and learn from your mistakes.

 

However, there are a couple of things to remember as sort of bottomline basics.  If at all possible gain an altitude advantage before you enter a combat zone.  Altitude helps to keep you safe and it can be converted into speed.  So many people takeoff and fly straight into combat at about 500m  or less and then start screaming 'uber' when then get shot down.  Get an altitude advantage and keep it.  Also, always maintain visual contact with your enemy - always!.  And forget about terms like 'turn' fighter and 'energy' fighter.  Just because you can turn better than an opponent doesn't mean you should actually initiate a turn fight.  Turn is essentially a defensive maneuver.  Stay high ( :) ) stay fast and look for enemies below you that you can engage.  Don't do head-ons because they are a 50/50 thing at best.  If your attack fails climb away and re-position.  

Posted (edited)

Better find a team with a good instructor-pilot.

 

On this forum there is a lot of people who (only) "think" they are good or imagine that they know virtual combat issues...

So there is 90 percent probablility that someone will come and reapeat the same empty theory about virtual combat... plus there is 90% probability that this guy will not have any idea what he is talking about...

 

Devil is hidden in details.

 

 

LOL, they actually gave you a moderation job?  :) j/king i remember flying against you, your a good virtual pilot. you should spread some knowledge to these fellas.

BTW I would like to see you in a modern aircraft :P come play in DCS

Edited by ATAG_Injerin
Posted

Upload a few MP recordings. If you could provide one where you start out offensive, one where you start out defensive, and one where it's a high-aspect merge with both you and the bandit aware of each other, that would be best.

 

People will tell you to manage your energy all day long. It's true, but beyond that vague description, they aren't really offering you a whole lot.* "Managing your energy" typically gets translated as "boom and zoom," thus virtual pilots start attacking with an overwhelming energy (altitude) advantage and then zooming to the moon afterwards...rinse, repeat.

 

There's much more to BFM than just that. If you upload some videos, like the ones I mentioned above, I'd love to delve into the specifics of things you're doing right, and things that could use improvements. It's hard to offer you concrete advice before doing that.

 

 

 

*not meant to be condescending. Just an observation after reading combat sim forums for a decade.

  • Upvote 1
Posted

...And forget about terms like 'turn' fighter and 'energy' fighter.  Just because you can turn better than an opponent doesn't mean you should actually initiate a turn fight.  Turn is essentially a defensive maneuver.

As an aside, I've been told that F-16 guys have been known to frame BFM as a turn circle question. Question: Am I inside the bandit's turn circle? If yes, go kill him. If no, drive to his turn circle...then go kill him. I think Shaw's book makes a great case for NOT forgetting about 'angles' fighter versus 'energy' fighter.

 

Cheers

Posted

As an aside, I've been told that F-16 guys have been known to frame BFM as a turn circle question. Question: Am I inside the bandit's turn circle? If yes, go kill him. If no, drive to his turn circle...then go kill him. I think Shaw's book makes a great case for NOT forgetting about 'angles' fighter versus 'energy' fighter.

 

Cheers

Is that why I've gunned more Vipers than any other jet?

 

Just kidding, they're great pilots and what you said is somewhat true, sometimes. I'm serious about the rest though ;)

Posted

I am sorry to say, but to say "amazing" and then "never shoulder shoot" and "rarely stall" leads me to think that

 

A) you DO shoulder shoot, else you would not insist you don't

B) you DO stall, else you would not say you don't

 

Your frustration leads you to shoulder shoot, or to shoot in a dangerous way.

Amazing Pilots do not stall, never. And if , then on purpose and then it's not worth mentioning.

 

Please pardon me, but you can not say "i rock" and then proceed to expose your important faults like that.

It is not coherent and takes away the "i rock" element.

 

 

And you know this how? Nice troll post but I'm not going to feed you.

Posted

Is that why I've gunned more Vipers than any other jet?

 

Just kidding, they're great pilots and what you said is somewhat true, sometimes. I'm serious about the rest though ;)

What can I say? Your jet was a wet dream when I flew Block 10s and 15s...manly men doing manly things in a manly manner.

  • Upvote 1
Posted

Upload a few MP recordings. If you could provide one where you start out offensive, one where you start out defensive, and one where it's a high-aspect merge with both you and the bandit aware of each other, that would be best.

 

People will tell you to manage your energy all day long. It's true, but beyond that vague description, they aren't really offering you a whole lot.* "Managing your energy" typically gets translated as "boom and zoom," thus virtual pilots start attacking with an overwhelming energy (altitude) advantage and then zooming to the moon afterwards...rinse, repeat.

 

There's much more to BFM than just that. If you upload some videos, like the ones I mentioned above, I'd love to delve into the specifics of things you're doing right, and things that could use improvements. It's hard to offer you concrete advice before doing that.

 

 

 

*not meant to be condescending. Just an observation after reading combat sim forums for a decade.

 

 Will do this weekend. I will PM the links at that time.

Posted

What can I say? Your jet was a wet dream when I flew Block 10s and 15s...manly men doing manly things in a manly manner.

 

Hah! You got me there :) I hope that bus is treating you well, there's a beer awaiting you at a roll call near you. 

Posted (edited)

And you know this how? Nice troll post but I'm not going to feed you.

People Lie.

A lot.

Nothing about you, mind you.

Just life experience.

 

i have given enough job interviews where my candidate was all "i rock" and over the course of 15 minutes shot himself in the leg at least twice.

all they need to do that is to speak and keep speaking.

 

have fun learning and training the dogfight instincts!

Edited by Hawker_Typhoon
Posted

 Will do this weekend. I will PM the links at that time.

 

Perfect. If you feel there's valuable learning that came out of it, feel free to share it outside of the PM.

 

I hope to find the time to make some videos of my own soon, but I don't know when I'll be home in the near future to do so. And my PC can hardly handle a 1v1 against the AI in BoS...so there's that (upgrading soon).

Posted

 

+1 on this. I actually ordered & read a hardcopy (If like me you prefer a hardcopy when we're talking about a 175 page book... well worth it, search the author, Johan Kylander.)

 

Principles are the same regardless of era (unless maybe we start talking missiles, IDK much about that.) Just speed, power & therefore reaction times differ.

 

And of course Requiem's youtube videos are most helpful.

  • Upvote 1
Posted

I'm quite dangerous in single player mode and my deflection works fine. I get many fighter kills.

In multiplayer I can't hit anything despite using the same deflection and distances. My suspicion is that there's network lag at the root of it, maybe. Other flyers shoot ME down with sickening inevitability and with great ease ... which irritates.

It is so annoying to experience crippling lag oneself when shooting, but being a rock-steady target when others shoot at you... Yeah, must be netlag. ;-)

Posted

Basically Lensman, Sektre76 and others: You are experiencing what it's like to go up against human opponents after battling AI bots for a while. There is always a very real risk, that the guys (gals) opposing you are (a lot) better than you are.

 

When I return to MP one if these days (except for the Bf 109 G2 I have all the unlocks I care about now) I expect much the same frustration: getting completely outflown by that Fw190 you just thought you had the jump on, getting blown away by what seems to be a single round hitting you (but is really a concentrated burst that hits you right where it hurts), getting hunted down by a kill-hungry 109 while you limp home etc.

 

SP is a petting zoo, MP is the jungle.

  • Upvote 3
Posted

Finkeren's post is a good conclusion.

I'm closing this thread. it's allready too confrontational.

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