As Founders, Have we served our Purpose ?

[jaydee]

Maybe we were not the "Target " Audience from day one , I don't know... Maybe Im being cynical(not deliberately).

I believe, without the Founders money, this project might not have come so far. 

I believe that 1c has decided on "another"  Type of customer to Finance the future of BOS..

This is not a" Whinge" Post. I enjoyed the journey and I certainly got value for my 90 Bucks so no complaints from me !

With "Unlocks", "XP", Lack of FMB and now SinglePlayers and Multiplayers arguing with each other, it seems to me that 1c have got another agenda.

I just like to say this to 1c. ... With Simmers "you cant  please everyone" ! Simmers can be arrogant and demanding, BUT, simmers will PAY for a Decent SIM.

1c,the choice is yours. Go for the Mass Market  and take you chances !

 ~S~

 

[Brano]

In fact it is 12 dollars.I have nothing against that.But those who payed full price and premium should have acces to everything according this philosophy.Otherwise it really makes no sense and lots of people can feel cheated.I supported game thru Early access because of personal reasons and I put my money on premium version voluntarily.I will not complain about that here on public forum.But many will.

[vonPilsner]

It doesn't seem especially ethical to sell a game for $100 as Early Access, and then to release a $20 version later on.

 

Seems fine to release a full game with early access for 100.00 and then release a stripped down version for less. I see no ethical dilemma, same goes with regional pricing.  

Edited October 28, 2014 by vonPilsner

[bivalov]

I think the clue was revealed recently with the news of the 500Ruble version of the game for the Russian market.

LIMITED number of that thing - it's just for RUSSIAN reality, and, partly, for russian MENTALITY. and i think that nothing more.

 

plus, some just wanted physical copies of game.

 

and btw, many russians think that MAIN buyer, and main gamer of this game - is NOT russian gamer, because this is another reality and possibility of buying.

[Feathered_IV]

I always assumed I paid for early access and got the finished game for free.

[Livai]

It doesn't seem especially ethical to sell a game for $100 as Early Access, and then to release a $20 version later on.

A good example:

Pre-order a game on steam full-price of course. But after 3 months after release you can get the same game for 50% off thanks to Steam-Sales. Its just a trick to not feel cheated.

 

The $20 game version is a very limited version only for the russian market. How many limited version they release exactly we not known.

 

 

 

 

 

[SR-F_Winger]

All hearsay - right? Or is there any officially confirmed information on this?

 

20$ version with 2 planes to attract players fine. Unlocks thru grind in this version - fine. But only modifications.

If they allow the 20$ buyers to unlock the remaining planes via grind tell you this devs:

 

THEN I feel fooled as a founder that payed premium.

You REALLY should think about that since NOONE will pay premium money anymore for anything you develop since the risk of getting fooled again is too high.

This is a question of reputation. You should not consider ruining yours just for a little quick money!

 

Winger

 

EDIT: @ Superghostboys comment: I agree and have no problem with falling prices. But this game is barely out. To announce THIS sort of a discount is just riddiculous. Id even welcome a reasonable discount or whatever marketing tricks to attract new players. But there is a point where older customers would get annoyed. This point would with such a move clearly be overstepped. - again i consider all this hearsay until official confirmation and only write my mind about this down.

Edited October 28, 2014 by VSG1_Winger

[J2_Trupobaw]

I don't believe 1cg has a single  agenda at this moment, or direction, except maybe agreeing to disagree; there seem to be different, not fully compatibile visions. Notice that Jason said that 500 rubel version was not his call - so at least when Russian market is concerned, other people can bypass him. 

IIRC BoS was developed in partnership with some Russian institutions, including a Russian society promoting military history? I suspect the cheap, accessible version for Russian market may be ordered by them, to promote awareness of Stalingrad battle in Russia or something to that tune. If some partner in Russia wants Russians to play that game, I wouldn't be surprised if 1cg was given a compensation on top of each 12$ they officially sell a copy for. It's thanks to such a deal that we can buy Ilya Muromets for 20$, right?

So, back on OPs question, I believe answer varies depending on whom in 1cg you ask.

Treading on thin ice here...

Edited October 28, 2014 by Trupobaw

[Matt]

Totally normal to have much cheaper version in some regions. That shouldn't surprise anyone, especially those who ever bought a Steam key on some infamous online shop.

 

I'm perfectly alright with that. If people are so worried about paying too much, they should've waited for the first Steam discount (i'm betting there'll be a ~70% discount on BoS this year on Steam at some point). Just look at DCS, similar Dora discount in six weeks, even without Steam. I think CloD was also down to a few bucks in less than two months (can't remember for sure though).

 

I think the number of founders on the Russian forums is not really that low, so it's not like every Russian gets this special offer. They are trying to get those people who couldn't afford it before. I would recommend to check the average net income in Russia and compare it to yours.

 

Still, i paid premium in July 2013, am perhaps 15-20 hours in the campaign (have basically completed all chapters twice) and still don't have access to everything i paid for. I'll not pay full price again for anything that contains unlocks of this kind.

[SR-F_Winger]

I rethought:

 

After all i think i shouldnt even bother at all. My daily life gives me enough things to think about. This here is just wasted thoughts since we wont change anything anyways.

So i decided: "I dont care:)"

 

Mainnly i hope the project to be commercially successful since i have big fun playing it and am looking forward for future content. No matter with wich activity the devs choose to reach this goal. I am fine with it:P

Edited October 28, 2014 by VSG1_Winger

[Livai]

Here you have the answer:
 

Steam version is available in a complete set of "Standard" and "Premium" for the price of 1999 and 3699 rubles, respectively. Note that in Russia will also be released a special "Starter" edition in Jewel-box at a price 499 rubles.
[source]http://www.igromania.ru/news/238726/Vyshla_cifrovaya_versiya_Il-2_SHturmovik_Bitva_za_Stalingrad.htm

They could release a special "Starter" edition in Jewel-box here, too.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

We served our purpose, which was to provide capital for the project. I was on board with this project as a Founder from almost the day it was available. Two things I have "learned" from my experience with the Founder/Early Access period.

 

I will not participate in another early access for a combat flight sim, be it an expansion of this sim or not. I will wait until the product comes to market and judge it then with the full feature set it contains at final release.

 

I will not buy another combat flight sim with unlocks features that apply to MP, I don't care how good it is. IMO this was a major feature error that could have been avoided but wasn't. The voices of a few were listened to for tweaks to an aircraft's FM (which I think the devs should be complemented on) but the voices of the majority were ignored for their thoughts on the unlock system. I think this has, and will, cost this sim's reputation in reviews and sales as a result. Unlocks simply do not belong in anything but an arcade game and I don't buy arcade games.

Edited October 28, 2014 by VR-Stick

[Jaws2002]

I have absolutely no problem with the cheaper version, as long as those of us who paid a premium for this game, don't have to grind.

[Bearcat]

Maybe we were not the "Target " Audience from day one , I don't know... Maybe Im being cynical(not deliberately).

I believe, without the Founders money, this project might not have come so far. 

I believe that 1c has decided on "another"  Type of customer to Finance the future of BOS..

This is not a" Whinge" Post. I enjoyed the journey and I certainly got value for my 90 Bucks so no complaints from me !

With "Unlocks", "XP", Lack of FMB and now SinglePlayers and Multiplayers arguing with each other, it seems to me that 1c have got another agenda.

I just like to say this to 1c. ... With Simmers "you cant  please everyone" ! Simmers can be arrogant and demanding, BUT, simmers will PAY for a Decent SIM.

1c,the choice is yours. Go for the Mass Market  and take you chances !

 ~S~

 

I think the bigger/biggest issue is the unlocks in MP. I don't see why they did not sell them as Field Mods ala RoF. Sure some folks would have screamed "Pay To Win!!" but anyone who flies RoF knows that is not the case.. The lack of a FMB is something that is not a huge fail at the moment because there are reasons why it is not in here and according to the devs it will be released when it is ready and I have no reason to not believe them.. but the unlocks for founders in particular is IMO just a flat out bad move regardless to what the reasons are. Let the guy that brought you to the dance at least cop a feel without getting smacked. Early access alone IMO is not enough. Granted .. we also got it for $10 less. It is what it is... so I intend to just deal with it.. but I am not happy about it and frankly I have not started the campaign yet.. because I hate campaigns.

 

I think this whole thing has reached a fork in the road.. and we need to take it.. (a Yogiism)  . It is what it is and it looks like it won't change so therefore whatever we, individually and collectively decide to do.. we need to just suck it up and do it. Everyone in the flight sim community and the devs all know without any doubt whatsoever that most of the flight sim community thinks that the unlocks system is not a good idea. People have already decided to NOT buy based solely on that... some have decided to not use the sim because of it.. but the bottom line for me is like it or not I still dropped coin for the sim so from my perspective to not fly it is just silly and eventually I will get around to the whole campaign thing.. but we all need to move on. This has been beaten to death over the past week and there is nothing more to say about it so we need to stop trying to find new and inventive ways to say "That was not a good move 1CGS...." I am sure that by now.. they know and for whatever reason it has not changed and it looks as if it won't change.

 

At this point we need to look at the bigger picture.. and do what we can to dispel the myths because there are still people who think they are grinding for aircraft they paid for .. etc etc.. There are still people who are thinking of these unlocks in the context of WT... and that is not the context that this is in at all. In WT you had to start in a F-2 I think it was.. I don't remember because I bailed on the WT alpha .. and  grind to get to the plane you wanted.. I don't know if it is still that way .. but in this sim you can go into MP and fly any plane that is in here. Granted.. you won't have all the tools you need.. which is the problem.. but again.. We all know that. Everybody knows that now so we need to either move on or move away but we need to stop going on and on adnauseum about it. Not bashing anyone at all so please do not take what I just said personally anyone.. just an observation. We need to focus on what is right about the sim and where it is going and it won't get there unless we move it.. hence I will be starting that dadgummed campaign ... soon..

[Jason_Williams]

We served our purpose, which was to provide capital for the project. I was on board with this project as a Founder from almost the day it was available. Two things I have "learned" from my experience with the Founder/Early Access period.

 

I will not participate in another early access for a combat flight sim, be it an expansion of this sim or not. I will wait until the product comes to market and judge it then with the full feature set it contains at final release.

 

I will not buy another combat flight sim with unlocks features that apply to MP, I don't care how good it is. IMO this was a major feature error that could have been avoided but wasn't. The voices of a few were listened to for tweaks to an aircraft's FM (which I think the devs should be complemented on) but the voices of the majority were ignored for their thoughts on the unlock system. I think this has, and will, cost this sim's reputation in reviews and sales as a result. Unlocks simply do not belong in anything but an arcade game and I don't buy arcade games.

 

No as we stated many times. We did not do Early Access to build capital. We always had the budget to make this. We did Early Access to 1.) Give simmers something new and not have to wait years to fly. 2.) Try and build capital for the next product sooner.

 

Jason

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

No as we stated many times. We did not do Early Access to build capital. We always had the budget to make this. We did Early Access to 1.) Give simmers something new and not have to wait years to fly. 2.) Try and build capital for the next product sooner.

 

Jason

 

I sit corrected.  Thanks Jason

[Reflected]

Capital for the next product? Good to hear Jason, best of luck! Can't wait to hear what it is.

[[TWB]80hd]

The issue is that it would have been, in my uninformed opinion, quite simple to please both the founder/hardcore sim-player crowd as well as this "target market".

 

The road that was settled upon has alienated a great number of the sim crowd, and this target market must all be busy-beavering the unlocks, because they haven't shown up for multiplayer yet.

[Bearcat]

If it were not for founders testing this it probably would have taken much longer..

[LBR=H-Ostermann]

Oh come on, games go to the bargain bin all the time.

[Jason_Williams]

Capital for the next product? Good to hear Jason, best of luck! Can't wait to hear what it is.

 

Only if it turns profit.

 

Jason

[SR-F_Winger]

Only if it turns profit.

 

Jason

GL from me too.

Roadmap in december?

[=AVG=Zombie]

I hope that they continue to release plane variants as Rise of Flight does. People would buy additional planes, i know i would.

[Jaws2002]

I hope that they continue to release plane variants as Rise of Flight does. People would buy additional planes, i know i would.

 

 

If every time new planes are released, I have to do forced labor to be able to use simple things like bombs or skins, I'll pass.

[4pg_inferno]

Only if it turns profit.

 

Jason

 

That is the point. Jason is a business man. Money always be the most important thing.

The market of hard core simmer is too small to support developer team and make money. Falcon, Jane's F-15 is a good example.

It is normal they need to satisfy another type of users. Just as they try to test  mouse control plane system in ILya Muromets

If they can finish the Dserver and FMB as soon as possible.  So most of people here will be happy.

And for early access player, we don't have choice, we must keep supporting IL2 BOS if you still want to they update the game.

I don't think anyone here wants to see another CLOD...

Edited October 28, 2014 by realhulu

[Jaws2002]

That is the point. Jason is a business man. Money always be the most important thing.

The market of hard core simmer is too small to support developer team and make money. Falcon, Jane's F-15 is a good example.

It is normal they need to satisfy another type of users. Just as they try to test  mouse control plane system in ILya Muromets

If they can finish the Dserver and FMB as soon as possible.  So most of people here will be happy.

And for early access player, we don't have choice, we must keep supporting IL2 BOS if you still want to they update the game.

I don't think anyone here wants to see another CLOD...

 

 The direction the game is going is not something I'm willing to support.  I just don't have the time to waste grinding for content I paid for. If the grind is here to stay, I don't think I'll spend another penny on this game.

[[KWN]T-oddball]

I think the bigger/biggest issue is the unlocks in MP. I don't see why they did not sell them as Field Mods ala RoF. Sure some folks would have screamed "Pay To Win!!" but anyone who flies RoF knows that is not the case.. The lack of a FMB is something that is not a huge fail at the moment because there are reasons why it is not in here and according to the devs it will be released when it is ready and I have no reason to not believe them.. but the unlocks for founders in particular is IMO just a flat out bad move regardless to what the reasons are. Let the guy that brought you to the dance at least cop a feel without getting smacked. Early access alone IMO is not enough. Granted .. we also got it for $10 less. It is what it is... so I intend to just deal with it.. but I am not happy about it and frankly I have not started the campaign yet.. because I hate campaigns.

 

I think this whole thing has reached a fork in the road.. and we need to take it.. (a Yogiism)  . It is what it is and it looks like it won't change so therefore whatever we, individually and collectively decide to do.. we need to just suck it up and do it. Everyone in the flight sim community and the devs all know without any doubt whatsoever that most of the flight sim community thinks that the unlocks system is not a good idea. People have already decided to NOT buy based solely on that... some have decided to not use the sim because of it.. but the bottom line for me is like it or not I still dropped coin for the sim so from my perspective to not fly it is just silly and eventually I will get around to the whole campaign thing.. but we all need to move on. This has been beaten to death over the past week and there is nothing more to say about it so we need to stop trying to find new and inventive ways to say "That was not a good move 1CGS...." I am sure that by now.. they know and for whatever reason it has not changed and it looks as if it won't change.

 

At this point we need to look at the bigger picture.. and do what we can to dispel the myths because there are still people who think they are grinding for aircraft they paid for .. etc etc.. There are still people who are thinking of these unlocks in the context of WT... and that is not the context that this is in at all. In WT you had to start in a F-2 I think it was.. I don't remember because I bailed on the WT alpha .. and  grind to get to the plane you wanted.. I don't know if it is still that way .. but in this sim you can go into MP and fly any plane that is in here. Granted.. you won't have all the tools you need.. which is the problem.. but again.. We all know that. Everybody knows that now so we need to either move on or move away but we need to stop going on and on adnauseum about it. Not bashing anyone at all so please do not take what I just said personally anyone.. just an observation. We need to focus on what is right about the sim and where it is going and it won't get there unless we move it.. hence I will be starting that dadgummed campaign ... soon..

 

all you had to say was....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIQPkCR4E6k

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Capital for the next product? Good to hear Jason, best of luck! Can't wait to hear what it is.

Quick, back patting thread - GO!

 

If every time new planes are released, I have to do forced labor to be able to use simple things like bombs or skins, I'll pass.

Aaaaagreed. If "Premium Planes" are any indication, all future content will feature unlocks. Too bad for 777, I guess. Edited October 28, 2014 by FalkeEins

[Pierre64]

"And so, my fellow Founders: ask not what IL-2 BoS can do for you, ask what you can do for IL-2 BoS."

[vonPilsner]

@Extreme_One

 

I get where you are coming from, but I guess I really feel they can do whatever they want with their product.   My money is already spent and I'm enjoying BoS regardless of how much anyone else pays for it.

 

I don't think the developers owe me any explanation, I am positive they are trying to make a successful game/sim and I want BoS to be supported for many years.   Whatever they have to do to make this happen is going to have to be OK with me.  Jason and team have done a great job with RoF and I'm willing to trust that their long term plans for BoS are reasonable.

 

[1PL-Banzai-1Esk]

€9 version for Russian market version is not a bad idea , there should be a Chinese market version as well , and Mongolian one. Some really cheap version for poor African countries. Also cheaper version for people on Social Welfare payments and Pensioners.

 

Do I feel bad for spending 100 dollars? No , I had loads of fun since the first day of Early Access.

 

What I would also advise is , release couple planes before/in the interim you release any major expansion.

 

I will buy any plane you release, be it Chaika or Ishak , or any other early stuff , lend-lease stuff. The sooner the better and if you really want to attract casual crowd you need more planes.

 

I hope that one day we will see hangars full of planes , just like in RoF at the moment.

[A-E-Hartmann]

@Extreme_One

 

I get where you are coming from, but I guess I really feel they can do whatever they want with their product.   My money is already spent and I'm enjoying BoS regardless of how much anyone else pays for it.

 

I don't think the developers owe me any explanation, I am positive they are trying to make a successful game/sim and I want BoS to be supported for many years.   Whatever they have to do to make this happen is going to have to be OK with me.  Jason and team have done a great job with RoF and I'm willing to trust that their long term plans for BoS are reasonable.

 

1+

[URUAker]

Ok, so wouldn´t it be great if those of us that paid for the full version have everything unlocked, and then there is a 15 dollar version where you have to unlock everything?

That will suit everybody.

 

Is 777 aiming to casual players? Casul being a key word here, because once they are bored with flight sims they will switch to fps, mmo, rpg or whatever suits them. Meanwhile serious simmers will keep putting money on flight sims.

 

my 2 cts

Edited October 28, 2014 by URUAker

[Y-29.Silky]

Hmm, it was funding for the next product, that puts a spin on things because I thought it was supporting this game, and I don't know what their next peoject even is. Jason mentioned earlier that new models/planes take time and money, so I'm assuming they already have the funds for more aircraft..

Edited October 28, 2014 by Silky

[IIN8II]

Unless the "stripped down version" is essentially the same game with the content hidden behind unlocks.

 

Then one could argue that if they'd known there was the option of spending £20 to grind their content and planes or $100 and have the planes already unlocked ... Well I don't need to spell it out.

I agree, I am all for there being a cheap version with only two planes, however you should not be able to unlock the rest with XP. You should have to pay to upgrade your game. This could get a lot of people who are on the fence about buying the game to try it out for a low price.

[1PL-Banzai-1Esk]

Good to see you are well raaaiid

 

What sort of bugs are we talking for that Spectrum game , would you take 50 beatles for it?

 

PM me your 'mobil' number.

[AbortedMan]

That is the point. Jason is a business man. Money always be the most important thing.

The market of hard core simmer is too small to support developer team and make money. Falcon, Jane's F-15 is a good example.

It is normal they need to satisfy another type of users. Just as they try to test  mouse control plane system in ILya Muromets

If they can finish the Dserver and FMB as soon as possible.  So most of people here will be happy.

"Hardcore simmer" market too small? ED seems to be doing just fine with their DCS franchise...sans unlocks even!

 

The release of dserver won't mean much if there are--and I'm calling it right now--hardcoded limits on player numbers (64) in MP servers...even if it reaches their "official goal of 64 players". More limitation is the last thing BoS needs...especially on the basis of "we, the devs, know what's best for you" since we've already seen the game can handle 70-80 players just fine on a powerful server. Removing features like this to preserve an image of "everything is just fine and dandy" is once again an example of the many shots to this company's foot.

 

...so no, I don't think most here will be happy.

Edited October 28, 2014 by =SE=AbortedMan

[Dakpilot]

"Hardcore simmer" market too small? ED seems to be doing just fine with their DCS franchise...sans unlocks even!

 

The release of dserver won't mean much if there are--and I'm calling it right now--hardcoded limits on player numbers (64) in MP servers...even if it reaches their "official goal of 64 players". More limitation is the last thing BoS needs...especially on the basis of "we, the devs, know what's best for you" since we've already seen the game can handle 70-80 players just fine on a powerful server. Removing features like this to preserve an image of "everything is just fine and dandy" is once again an example of a shot to the foot.

 

...so no, I don't think most here will be happy.

 

Selling games/Sims is not ED's main Business so not really comparable, and I would have thought that restricting the numbers for a short while because of bugtracking an admitted fault is far better than "carrying on pretending everything is fine and dandy"  but what do I know I am not a game developer

 

CheerdsDakpilot

[Jason_Williams]

"Hardcore simmer" market too small? ED seems to be doing just fine with their DCS franchise...sans unlocks even!

 

The release of dserver won't mean much if there are--and I'm calling it right now--hardcoded limits on player numbers (64) in MP servers...even if it reaches their "official goal of 64 players". More limitation is the last thing BoS needs...especially on the basis of "we, the devs, know what's best for you" since we've already seen the game can handle 70-80 players just fine on a powerful server. Removing features like this to preserve an image of "everything is just fine and dandy" is once again an example of the many shots to this company's foot.

 

...so no, I don't think most here will be happy.

 

And with that smear it's locked. We make decisions to improve the product or temporarily improve the experience for players while we fix things, not cover our ass as you suggest. 

 

Jason

[1PL-Banzai-1Esk]

No it's not ...yet.