The community devours its own (?) Some thoughts.

[216th_Jordan]

Well, I have largely been following discussions and reactions about this sim since it was announced  and after all those years (starting with 46) the only thing I really know is that this 'community' causes a real bad pain in my stomach (and i'm really not sensitive for that). I'm talking about a part of the community that is not it's majority, maybe its a maximum of 20%, but those 20% are very determined with their actions and their feelings.

 

The feeling I've got is that this community does not know what it is doing to itself.

I'm talking about doubters and vehement critics. Please do note that I think criticism is very important and needed to make things better, but as you also know there is constructive criticism and there is destructive criticism.

 

 

It hit my face hard when I realized that Clod has got a better Metascore Userrating than BoS

 

1. What about that constant comparing aka 'DSC is so much better because of this...', 'Clod gave us so much of that..', '777 just wants to milk us for our money..' (btw. seriously?!) and bla bla bla. Why oh why don't you just play all of those sims and take out the best for yourself? Why is it so hard to give a positive criticism with a well fed comparison to improve things?

This genre is small, there is no space for such destructive behaviour while everybody wants the best sim there has ever been, this is not the way we are going to get it.

 

2. This dev team has given all of this community so much feedback and support (while not everywhere, and yes there are a lot of problems..) but it gets slayed for exactly that? You hit the one that is trying to help, trying to make understand what is going on, trying to tell you that this is also a bussiness and not a fairytale. I will not ever understand how that is possible.

 

 

Yes, this game is not huge, yes for it to become something really great it needs time. Yes the unlocks system is very odd. But all of that gives you the authority to destroy a game because you don't like how everything is put together? Or you ask for your money back because you did not get what you paid for?

For the money issue: Game engines and content got a lot more details and information on it than it had 10 years ago, while the prices stayed fairely equal over time the content one sim or game must fill has risen dramatically without the capital acclaimed by a title doing the same. Flight sims don't generate a lot of money and people need to be paid, paid for painstaking work. 

 

I'm not a rating-10-guy but I do not understand all that 0s that come flying in, I do want this community to become aware of what it is doing and that it may push the next Il2 directly down the cliffs..

How is it possible? What are the reasons for some of this bad behavior?

 

 

I'd like a decent discussion to arise out of this, not a trollfest.

[sallee]

 

 

 

I'd like a decent discussion to arise out of this, not a trollfest.

I wish you the very best with that.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The game is great, I don't mind the money but I think the devs made a HUUUGE mistake with those SP unlocks. My Fw190 suffers from not having some huge bombs to strap under that belly.

[FlatSpinMan]

I don't think this is news to anyone who has followed sims recently. Another thread on this will just rehash the whole "hater/fanboi" thing. If that happens this thread will be 'disappeared'.

 

I don't doubt your sincere intentions, BTW.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

There was a similar thread asking are we, the customers, the problem.  Sorry, just don't buy it.  With the unveiling of the unlock system, the writing was on the wall as far as the direction reviews would take.

 

That being said, I wonder just how big a deal is Metacritic?  Comments here seem to say their rep is not so good but I take those with a grain of salt.  I have been flying flight sims for a long time and I had never heard of it until Zak brought attention to it a week or so ago.  If I were buying BOS off Steam, I would look at the ratings there, which are 75% positive.  If I were buying it from here, I would check the forums.  The poll here for rating the sim was running between 7 and 8 the last time I looked.  So these two are running about the same.

 

As it stands right now, I would rate the game somewhere between 7 and 8 myself.  I love the sim, but it is missing components and I hate the unlock system.

Edited October 27, 2014 by VR-Stick

[SeriousFox]

The game rating will rise if devs are willing to deliver cosisntent, positive improvements in this game. Like TeamFusion(it's a community mod, I know) mod in CloD.

[GS-paorel]

Well written, Jordan ... Maybe it would be useful if you send some similar well-written message to the developers.
I'm not a complainer. I'm generally grateful and patient customer. When the unlocking system was applied (the only problem for me), I was only little disgusted, I started to fly the campaign and I unlocked all what I want for Pe-2 in a few hours. Then the autopilot was removed and the time compression was limited by developers. I am sorry, it was absurd and hostile gesture for me. Then three weeks of one-sided discussions followed. Many many posts was written by players but almost no response from developers. I'm not going to post any abusive review anywhere for this reason. But my enjoyment of the game is a little smaller than it was in the beginning, and my sympathy to the developers declined quite considerably.

Edited October 27, 2014 by paorel

[Jaws2002]

Jordan, how do you explain the fact that BOS had so much better metascore before the unlocks? Do you think that's all trolls and haters?

 

Look at the poll Jason  did about the unlocks.  Whoever thinks those nearly 80% of the preorder customers who hate the unlocks, will give BOS stellar reviews is delusional.

 

That's the problem. The Unlocks. Without those, I bet the metascore would be over eight.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Jaws2002

[ST_ami7b5]

"You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day"

 

So:

+1 for Jaws.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 It is not the game itself, but some issues with it that cause a lot of discussion: SP unlocks and the campaign, lack of graphical adjustments and now the oddities in FM. Other than that there has not been much negatives about BoS anywhere. It is widely regarded as having all the right "building blocks" in place, just in need of some polishing and release of FMB/DServer. That is how I have seen the situation.

[=LD=Hethwill]

I, myself, having great fun with the IL-2 BoS air combat simulator game despite all short comings in the career mechanics.

 

I, myself, having great time in multiplayer both in EU and US servers, despite the random latency bombs and netcode hard tuning when too many humans get in one place.

 

I, myself, going smooth through the single player campaign missions, taking the time off after office to do the 30 mins flying to do a Full / Expert mission.

As they say - 1 mission a day keeps the burning away.

 

I, myself, feel very immersed with the flight sensation that the game provides, despite any limitations that a home computer might have when in comparison to reality. Yes, BoS has some sweet and in depth coding of everything flight and environment. 

 

Sorry for the egocentric statements. 

Edited October 27, 2014 by =LD=Hethwill_Khan

[ShamrockOneFive]

I contributed my review. I gave it an 8 which might be a little generous based on how annoyed I have been with some of the flawed game design decisions but on the other hand this is a very faithful and enjoyable simulator when you're actually flying and I think that's still a huge part of this so.... I gave it an 8. If I could give it a 7.5 I think I would have been happier with that but alas I could not.

 

In-case anyone wants to see the details: http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/il-2-sturmovik-battle-of-stalingrad/user-reviews

 

I think the distribution speaks much louder than the average. We can see a very polarizing split between positive and negative reviews. The people who are really angry are really angry and are giving it a 0-4 and the others who think its a good product (and is either excellent or good with flaws) are giving a 7-9 type rating. There really isn't anything in between.

 

Battle of Stalingrad succeeds as a flight simulator and then makes some major missteps in appealing to the simulator community by tacking on and then forcing RPG-lite grinding elements that this customer base does not enjoy one bit. We want a sandbox and we want to be able to play in it however we choose to. That's what separates a simulator game from a conventional entertainment product and I think trying to mix them really messed things up a bit. It certainly pissed off a lot of people. The devs have listened in the past but they need to stop being hard nosed when it comes to some really core game design decisions that I'm sure they are passionate about but that have backfired on them - the campaign unlock system, the restrictive graphics settings, and the way that unlocks interact with multiplayer.

 

I'm hopeful but not optimistic right now but I cannot blame the community. Enough of these things were only brought into clarity late in the early access development period to really feel like it was an ambush and I would honestly be surprised if 777 didn't know that these things would be controversial at best and highly divisive at worst.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

Sort of OT,  I have a Steam account.  To post a review it says:

 

 

Q. Do I need to have purchased a game in order to write a review of it?

A. Purchase is not required. You may write a review for any product you have launched via Steam. Whether you registered a Steam key obtained elsewhere, participated in a Steam Free Weekend, played a Free game, or played a game via Family Library Sharing, you will be able to write a review for that product. Your playtime in that game or time in that software title will appear next to your review.

 

I have added BOS to Steam and launched the game.  I would like to post a review but I still do not see anywhere on how to do this.  Suggestions/comments?

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

Was wondering about that.  So I take it this from Steam's section on writing a review is BS?

 

 

Q. Do I need to have purchased a game in order to write a review of it?

A. Purchase is not required. You may write a review for any product you have launched via Steam.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

Have you ever frequented the 1C forums, some times known as the Banana Forums for Clod? There were many nay Sayers there also. Perhaps more than here. Any game/sim has it's teething problems in the beginning. If nothing else time will see those disenchanted with this sim fall away and then we'll see what we have. Combine this with changes, and corrections and we'll see where BoS stands then.

 

Chief

[silent_one]

I think the games great. Im not a fan of the unlocks but the basic game is great. The damage modelling looks a lot more real than anything weve had before. ROF started with fewer planes and it turned into something great. We have more at the starting point and a couple of years from now were going to have something awesome. Working on the principle that the bitchfest doesnt kill it first. I agree  with the OP in this. Like he says the alternative is going to be something as stupid as Bearcat vs 109k4.

Edited October 27, 2014 by silent_one

[Y-29.Silky]

This is a bad idea, it's going to turn into yet another 200 post flame war within the community.

[Finkeren]

This is a bad idea, it's going to turn into yet another 200 post flame war within the community.

Agreed.

 

This is completely unnecessary.

[Livai]

Its a WWII sim and the expectation are very high because all was waiting for a IL-2 Anniversary a remake from the great and popular IL-2 Series. But what we see are game design decisions that goes a other way. The result you can see around the world-wide-web and metacritic.com. You could foreseen this. Is this the way they wanted to go?

 

2009 we could have BoS and all could look different and much better. Again the game design decisions

[No601_Swallow]

 

 

It hit my face hard when I realized that Clod has got a better Metascore Userrating than BoS

 

 

 

As a reflection on the perspective we simmers bring to this passtime, there's no need to add further comment.

Edited October 27, 2014 by No601_Swallow

[216th_Jordan]

Guys,

 

i understand the critics, my biggest question was why someone would deal damage to a product that he or she normally would support. i'm not talking about legitimate criticism or a sceptical score, but a 0 or 1 rating just is not objective or in any way constructive, it's just aimed at destruction and there is some of it.

 

This forum has all major discussions about flaws etc behind itself for now, devs have to deal with that now, there's no need to discuss that any further.

[SCG_Neun]

I just deleted a rather lengthy post, because I think some of you guys are right.....it's just a flame war in the end.  Whatever rating we gave BOS is our own personal decision and in the end, all the words and opinions will not change things one iota.  Let the game stand on it's merits and ride the path of the commercial market on the lead and guidance of it's producers.  I personally feel like it's strengths will stand the test of time, and who knows....we might get some changes from the dev's as well.

[Bearcat]

I don't think this is news to anyone who has followed sims recently. Another thread on this will just rehash the whole "hater/fanboi" thing. If that happens this thread will be 'disappeared'.

 

I don't doubt your sincere intentions, BTW.

 

+1

 

There was a similar thread asking are we, the customers, the problem.  Sorry, just don't buy it.  With the unveiling of the unlock system, the writing was on the wall as far as the direction reviews would take.

 

That being said, I wonder just how big a deal is Metacritic?  Comments here seem to say their rep is not so good but I take those with a grain of salt.  I have been flying flight sims for a long time and I had never heard of it until Zak brought attention to it a week or so ago.  If I were buying BOS off Steam, I would look at the ratings there, which are 75% positive.  If I were buying it from here, I would check the forums.  The poll here for rating the sim was running between 7 and 8 the last time I looked.  So these two are running about the same.

 

As it stands right now, I would rate the game somewhere between 7 and 8 myself.  I love the sim, but it is missing components and I hate the unlock system.

 

 

Jordan, how do you explain the fact that BOS had so much better metascore before the unlocks? Do you think that's all trolls and haters?

Look at the poll Jason  did about the unlocks.  Whoever thinks those nearly 80% of the preorder customers who hate the unlocks, will give BOS stellar reviews is delusional.

That's the problem. The Unlocks. Without those, I bet the metascore would be over eight.

 

The problem I have with some of this is that some folks are trashing the entire sim supposedly because of the unlocks. This makes no sense to me because for the most part aside from some other things like the lack of an ME - which we know will be forthcoming - and some other small thinsg the sim itself is a good product but that is not what is being said. No one is talking about stellar reviews.. but at least be honest about the sim and don't base your entire review on the features you do not like when there is so much that the devs got right. That is my major issue with most of the negative reviews. Criticism is fine. I critcize the sim in public and in private because it deserves it.. but this sim is nat a "turd" or "WT lite" or "an arcade game" . It is still at it's core a very well made simulator and the only dedicated WWII simulator on the market that still has full developer suppoprt.

 

S!

 It is not the game itself, but some issues with it that cause a lot of discussion: SP unlocks and the campaign, lack of graphical adjustments and now the oddities in FM. Other than that there has not been much negatives about BoS anywhere. It is widely regarded as having all the right "building blocks" in place, just in need of some polishing and release of FMB/DServer. That is how I have seen the situation.

 

I don't know what you are reading but I am seeing a lot more negativity with very little positives on the other side of the coin from a lot of circles.. and that is just unwarranted.

 

Guys,

 

i understand the critics, my biggest question was why someone would deal damage to a product that he or she normally would support. i'm not talking about legitimate criticism or a sceptical score, but a 0 or 1 rating just is not objective or in any way constructive, it's just aimed at destruction and there is some of it.

 

This forum has all major discussions about flaws etc behind itself for now, devs have to deal with that now, there's no need to discuss that any further.

 

Exactly..

 

To be fair the 10s are just as bad because there is no way that this sim as it it is rates a 10 by all the standards that make a good flight sim.. not yet anyway.. but the 0s and 1s do more damage to the bigger picture and too much of that comes primarily from one source and everyone who has been in this for any length of time knows exactly what that source is ..

[Trinkof]

The time spent by people to damage the product could have been transfered to a few hours of playing .... and we would not hear any complaint about the unlocks 

[Tompa_73]

I, myself, having great fun with the IL-2 BoS air combat simulator game despite all short comings in the career mechanics.

 

I, myself, having great time in multiplayer both in EU and US servers, despite the random latency bombs and netcode hard tuning when too many humans get in one place.

 

I, myself, going smooth through the single player campaign missions, taking the time off after office to do the 30 mins flying to do a Full / Expert mission.

As they say - 1 mission a day keeps the burning away.

 

I, myself, feel very immersed with the flight sensation that the game provides, despite any limitations that a home computer might have when in comparison to reality. Yes, BoS has some sweet and in depth coding of everything flight and environment. 

 

Sorry for the egocentric statements. 

 

Kinda hard write anything new to this topic when YOU took all my words!

 

Yes there is of course room for improvement, which just means new stuff to look forward too.

There will never be a sim which makes it shine like the second coming or whatever,

I dont get the drama or some peoples agenda towards this SIM, its not like its gonna change anything so just roll with it or leave it.

But Im personally having a blast with it, if I didnt I wouldnt play it, quite simple you would think?

[ST_ami7b5]

Kinda hard write anything new to this topic when YOU took all my words!

 

Yes there is of course room for improvement, which just means new stuff to look forward too.

There will never be a sim which makes it shine like the second coming or whatever,

I dont get the drama or some peoples agenda towards this SIM, its not like its gonna change anything so just roll with it or leave it.

But Im personally having a blast with it, if I didnt I wouldnt play it, quite simple you would think?

Again, again and again:

There was NO animosity/drama/call it what you like, before devs implemented and forced those arcade grinding/unlocks.

[mondog]

 

 

That being said, I wonder just how big a deal is Metacritic?  

 

The problem is that it appears next to a game in Steam. If you want to sell your game on Steam, which most do, a bad metacritic score is fatal.

[Livai]

Exactly..

 

To be fair the 10s are just as bad because there is no way that this sim as it it is rates a 10 by all the standards that make a good flight sim.. not yet anyway.. but the 0s and 1s do more damage to the bigger picture and too much of that comes primarily from one source and everyone who has been in this for any length of time knows exactly what that source is ..

to rate a 10 score for a sim that is "work in progress" is the same like the 0 or 1 score that is not objective or in any way constructive. At my eyes are the 8 - 10 score stay for "to hold the rating high as possible" and the 0 - 4 stay for to "hey, take a closer look I dislike your game design decisions change them now."

 

A objective and constructive score looks like that http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/rise-of-flight/wertung/45255.html

[wellenbrecher]

There was a similar thread asking are we, the customers, the problem.  Sorry, just don't buy it.  With the unveiling of the unlock system, the writing was on the wall as far as the direction reviews would take.

 

That being said, I wonder just how big a deal is Metacritic?  Comments here seem to say their rep is not so good but I take those with a grain of salt.  I have been flying flight sims for a long time and I had never heard of it until Zak brought attention to it a week or so ago.  If I were buying BOS off Steam, I would look at the ratings there, which are 75% positive.  If I were buying it from here, I would check the forums.  The poll here for rating the sim was running between 7 and 8 the last time I looked.  So these two are running about the same.

 

As it stands right now, I would rate the game somewhere between 7 and 8 myself.  I love the sim, but it is missing components and I hate the unlock system.

Metacritic is only a problem when people put fith in it. It's a flawed system, broken by design.

User reviews are useless because there's no way to find out if the person giving the rating even owns the game.

"Professional" reviews are useless because "professional" press is corrupt crap for a good part and even if they aren't for once, they are not allowed to amend their score after bug fixes and so on make it a better a game. Which is also an issue with games like BoS, which are released painfully incomplete.

Another issue with the "professional" reviews is that there seems to be no or a really weird vetting process as to which magazines are includes and which are not. 

 

Not even touching on the issue of boiling down reviews in simple numbers...

 

 

Anyway:

That being said, for some reason people believe that site. It's a big deal for some users as people like simple "black/white" things like numbers. Either it's in a number category you deem acceptable or not, no need to think or look for infos.

Also publishers give a big deal about it for some reason, I guess because they like to use it to show their shareholders how successful they are/were in a nice simple, understandable manner for people who have no idea what video games even are. 

See the abominable episode with Obsidian not getting their bonus from Bethesda because they missed the expected metacritic rating by 1%.

 

 

For my personal opinion, see the lovely quote by Feathered that I put into my signature 

 

tl;dr:

People are stupid and like simple numbers instead of looking for actual infos.

Edited October 27, 2014 by [JG2]G3_wellenbrecher

[Bearcat]

to rate a 10 score for a sim that is "work in progress" is the same like the 0 or 1 score that is not objective or in any way constructive. At my eyes are the 8 - 10 score stay for "to hold the rating high as possible" and the 0 - 4 stay for to "hey, take a closer look I dislike your game design decisions change them now."

 

A objective and constructive score looks like that http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/rise-of-flight/wertung/45255.html

 

Exactly... 

 

Again, again and again:

There was NO animosity/drama/call it what you like, before devs implemented and forced those arcade grinding/unlocks.

 

That is just not true. It was there.. it just went into hyperdrive after the unlocks were announced.. and again.. again.. I am not saying don't criticize the sim.. I read on other  boards where people say that we do not allow criticism here or that the advocates for the sim seem to think that it should not be criticized. That is not true. It is the trashing of the entire sim for the unlocks... Other things like the lack of a ME and the whole skins thing.. those are things that the developer has said will be addressed.. and based on their track record why would we tink that it would not be to the point where we would trash the sim... As I said.. it does not rate a 10 on a scale from one to 10.. but IMO anything between a 5 and an 8 is fair.. but fair is not what we are seeing. This sim will stand on it's own merits regardless. 

[von_Tom]

...nearly 80% of the preorder customers who hate the unlocks...

80% of those that voted. I don't know total preorder sales but can't imagine it is anywhere near even 5% of total preorder sales who voted. Maybe someone could confirm?

 

Hood

[Sokol1]

Metacritic - Ones that base his buy - or not buy - decision be reading half dozen of lines "reviews" - most cleared biased at some extreme - or only look at the final score, is not very smart and deserved by fooled.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Sokol1

[Jason_Williams]

Wrong thread.

 

Jason

[Brano]

Combat flight sims/games are lifetime hobby.Those,who seriously think about practicing it,are allready on board.You are born as virtual combat pilot.It can't be earned thru metascore or steam rating

[Jaws2002]

Well, this whole thread is about something that happened somewhere else on the internet.

[SharpeXB]

Unfortunately there is a vocal minority in this community with an axe to grind who feel it's to their benefit to wreck this hobby for everyone.

[wellenbrecher]

That's a silly, overly dramatic generalisation even for you, SharpeXB 

80% of those that voted. I don't know total preorder sales but can't imagine it is anywhere near even 5% of total preorder sales who voted. Maybe someone could confirm?

Hood

I'm not at home so I do not have that fantastic quote ready made by someone who actually works in that field, but every company out there working with predictions would lick their fingers for a sample number such as that poll.

Edited October 27, 2014 by [JG2]G3_wellenbrecher

[Livai]

80% of those that voted. I don't know total preorder sales but can't imagine it is anywhere near even 5% of total preorder sales who voted. Maybe someone could confirm?

 

Hood

 

I could imagine that the total pre-order sales are around 745523 / 84 = 8875 here and at the russian forum around 692010 / 84 = 8238 there.

[Afwastus]

That's a silly, overly dramatic generalisation even for you, SharpeXB 

I'm not at home so I do not have that fantastic quote ready made by someone who actually works in that field, but every company out there working with predictions would lick their fingers for a sample number such as that poll.

 

Thanks to the central limiting theorem, most survey don't actually involve survying every induvidual in a population or even a large percentage of them.

 

To put it into persepective the GSS, only surveys something like 50,000 respondents but thanks to fancy math and statistical priniciples it can be used to get an idea about the entire population of the United States (which is something like 360 million people).

Edited October 27, 2014 by Afwastus

[SharpeXB]

That's a silly, overly dramatic generalisation even for you,

Dramatic but true. It's one big reason we have been waiting for over 10 years for a new WWII flight sim to get developed.