The Neutered 109

[PreachR]

I'll just start this off by saying that I know this will be an unpopular post, because I've already heard many people complaining about how the 109 is too good. That being said, if you fly a Yak the way it is supposed to be flown against a 109 flown the way it is supposed to be flown, they are a good match. That has always been the case, since I first started playing this sim. However, it seems to me that with almost every update they've made to this game since I've been playing, they've neutered the 109 a little more each time.

 

I mostly fly the 109 F4. When I first started flying this sim, I could climb away from a battle if I needed to get back some energy, especially against a lower energy opponent. I many cases, I was able to get opponents to give up their higher energy state, and turn the tables by using the 109s climb rate advantage. A while back, though, I noticed that the 109 F4 (at least) was not climbing away from the Yaks anymore. The best you could do (in many cases) in the F4 was to keep the opponent on your tail at a safe distance. Now, after the most recent update, the Yaks are chasing me down in a climb.

 

Not only is this historically inaccurate, it defeats the purpose of flying different aircraft. The Yak already has a superior turn rate and speed advantage, which is historically accurate. Why diminish the 109s advantage, i.e., climb rate?

 

Before someone says that I'm just going up against better pilots, let me stop you. I've flown against some of the best Yak pilots in this game, and held my own. It is getting harder and harder to do so, though, in the new, neutered, Yak-Light.

[Leaf]

The 109 FM hasn't been changed in a while.Given an equal energy state, the 109 will always outclimb the Yak.

If things get a bit tricky I always just climb away, and it always works.

I don't see the issue here.

[PreachR]

Maybe it's not the 109 that has changed. The issue is that the dynamic between the 109 and the Yak has definitely changed. I also disagree that the 109 FM hasn't changed in a while. They changed it's stability in the last update. I can feel it.

[Finkeren]

....I can feel it.

I trust you'll back up your 'feelings' with dome tests showing how the 109 has gotten nerfed in the latest updates?

 

To me the 109 feels excactly the same as it has done since the official FM revisions several months back.

[FZG_Merlin]

I would argue that the yak are too though and resistant sometimes, but I have never any problem fighting them in an F4.

 

You are better at fast turn, climb, and dive.

 

 

If you are in trouble, gain speed and do a tight turn with trim help. You will prolly black out a little. So he will...

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

youre climbing too slow so you get less sustentation than your foe that goes slightly faster and with more sustantation

 

games should encourage the ability to pilot and boost the difference of pilots instead of machines

 

youre asking for i want to ride a better machine

 

what would happen if everybody thought that way

 

What..?

[gx007]

Pre-flight check your fuel load. Maybe it's too much.

 

When pursued climb in a slight spiral. 

 

This forces the yak to turn sharper in order to get a deflection shot. As he does this, there's less lift on his wings and the plane wants to pitch over or stall. 

 

As you get above 5K, the yak works harder to keep up, so the pilot will try to close the distance by closing the water and oil radiator gates. This produces more engine heat and he'll be forced to reduce speed.

 

If this occurs you want to turn slightly tighter so now you'er closing on his 6 from above.

 

This technique works better if you've dragged your opponent way into your territory or over your air base. He'll need to contend with AAA and friendlies on his tail.

 

Try the G2. It has better max engine rpm performance than F4, which can over heat more easily. 

[PreachR]

I trust you'll back up your 'feelings' with dome tests showing how the 109 has gotten nerfed in the latest updates?

 

To me the 109 feels excactly the same as it has done since the official FM revisions several months back.

 

The official revisions several months back is when I first noticed the difference, but it has changed since then. I'm not asking for a better machine than my opponent. I'm asking for historical accuracy.

 

Thanks all for the suggestions, however, I know how to fly the 109. I know it's advantages, and how to use them. That isn't the issue. I guess I'll say this again: maybe it's not the 109 that has changed.

 

I would argue that the yak are too though and resistant sometimes, but I have never any problem fighting them in an F4.

 

That's part of what I was thinking about when I started this new topic, but I didn't mention it. Also, I'm not having problems fighting anything.

Edited October 26, 2014 by PreachR

[Leaf]

So you ask for historical accuracy based on your feeling. So, er, how do you want the 109 changed? Do you want the the climb-rate to be set to "balanced" or "high"? 

Seriously though, I've got over a 100 hours on my G2, flying every few days, during every update. I guarantee you that nothing has changed in weeks.

If you know how to fly the 109, you shouldn't get out-climbed unless the enemy a/c had an energy advantage. 

 

No one is going to criticise you for asking about tactics to counter the Yak, which is a very dangerous fighter in the right hands. But accusing the devs of not being historically accurate or making clandestine changes on the basis of your "feeling" is going to make you the subject of flak. Have you maybe taken a break from flying recently? The quality of my piloting usually drops significantly after not playing a week.

 

The devs have stated they are prepared to change a plane's parameters based on provided evidence. So if you've got some data on the Yak which contrasts its portrayal in BoS, send it in!

Edited October 26, 2014 by 19te.Leaf

[PreachR]

I knew if I made a this post the trolls would come out in full form.

[Y-29.Silky]

If a Yak flies to his advantage, it's a very even match.. Plus, there's been times when a Yak was at 5000m, and put up good fights... And also, the La-5 is just as good as the 109, except for speed.

 

But the most important concern, is historical accuracy.. Of course some planes are going to be too good, the G-2/La-5's were game changers.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Silky

[FlatSpinMan]

No one is trolling, PreachEr, they just disagree and find it hard to believe your argument as it is based on a feeling.

[chris455]

My initial response to this mirrored GX007's, i.e., what is your fuel state? 

 

Fighting with 100% fuel would have been a rare occurence. It implies that combat was imminent at takeoff, or shortly thereafter.

Happened, but was the exception rather than the rule.

 

In the 109, I like around 60%-65% fuel load, since the 109s fuel bunkerage is so minimal to begin with.

Also, if you have unlocked "remove headrest" by all means do so. Not sure if the flight model reflects losing this extra weight, but it should.

 

None of us here have actually flown a 109, let alone flown one in combat, so we are left with:

1. Historical data, which the Devs also had at their disposal and which they almost certainly followed, and;

2. Preconceptions based on anecdotal evidence.

 

Also, the advice you were given regarding the use of the spiral climb is very valuable. The Me-109 was the bloodthirsty king of that maneuver. If there were other aircraft that could match it in this regard, I am unaware of them.

 

I cannot agree with the advice to switch to the G-2. If you can't flame a Yak in an F-4, you won't be able to do it in a G-2, be sure.

 

The community is fairly knowledgeable regarding the performance of the modelled aircraft. If you feel a particular plane is not doing what you "feel" it should do, and few if any others are crying the same foul, take a close look at how you are flying it.

(Affectionately known as the Why isn't my P-51 winning the war? syndrome) 

Take it from one who has been there!

 

Cheers, Chris

Edited October 27, 2014 by chris455

[Finkeren]

I knew if I made a this post the trolls would come out in full form.

Srsly? You read Leafs well thought out and respectful post and thought "Yeah, definately a troll"?

 

I don't think anyone here is being disrespectful or condescending. It's just really hard to argue these things based on someones feelings.

[PreachR]

Well, first of all my argument isn't based on a feeling. The developers changed the FMs a while back, and we're all in agreement about that. I don't see what's so hard to believe. I never fly with 100% fuel. I've been doing the spiral climb maneuver, as well as other vertical maneuvers, in the 109 for over a decade. I'm not asking for advice on how to fly it, and I've never had any trouble shooting down Yaks in the F-4 or the G-2.

 

I started this topic to see if anyone else noticed a decrease in the climb rate advantage of the 109 F4 against the Yak at anytime since July of this year, when I first started flying this sim.

[Matt]

Both 109s still handily outclimb the Yak-1 (and La-5 and LaGG-3) and i noticed no decline (or overall change) in climbrate this year at least since the introduction of the Yak-1.

 

Maybe close your radiators manually, if you can afford it. The Yak pilot will surely do the same in this situation.

[Finkeren]

If you meant the OP as a question to see if others had noticed the same, it certainly wasn't clear.

 

The reason I ask for test data to show how the 109 has gotten worse in climb or is not in accordance with original test data (or the Yak has gotten better) is not to be condescending, it's because that's the only way things can be improved. Simply saying "the Yaks I fight can now climb with me, they couldn't do that before, therefore something must've changed" is not really usable information, because there are way too many factors at play here. Maybe you're flying you 109s less than optimally and the Yak pilots on average have gotten better with experience? We just can't tell.

 

All I can say is, that I certainly haven't noticed anything different about the 109s recently.

[kiershar]

I fly the bf109 all the time and I think the performance has actually improved since the fw190 climb fix. You can run the engine in WEP a lot longuer before it breaks so nowadays i've been using a bit of WEP at the top of my climbs and when falling back down. It allows me to prop hang longuer if some brave yak is trying to stall fight me, or I can align somebody below me faster by having better control at 100% throttle. Sometime also when you are in slow turn fight and needs just a few angles, you run the engine in WEP and you can sustain better turning.

 

If something is changing every patch or so, i'd say the durability of russian planes seems to be steadily increasing, especially the yak. It used to be you could flame or destroy one in a couple cannon rounds, nowadays you need at least 6-8 cannon shots and machine gun practically do nothing unless you are lucky and flame him. Sometimes the yak is spewing smoke from multiple location on the wings and centerline and the engine doesnt even die.

[ShamrockOneFive]

So the climb rate is too low? Has it been tested and quantified? That's the only way that this can be a serious discussion.

[dkoor]

Back in the FB world, I've spent hours solely trying to determine actual top speed at altitudes and climbing ability of certain planes.

A lot of them in fact.

I did it with excellent LesniHU's prog called Autopilot.

 

In controlled environment, same map, same conditions (no wind, 12 o clock, map was Crimea...), same airfield.

That way I got a good grip of what was happening in each patch.

 

While that is probably currently impossible in BoS, I assume you did some uniform test of some kind so you get credible results up to a certain point of +/- error ?

[Leaf]

While that is probably currently impossible in BoS, I assume you did some uniform test of some kind so you get credible results up to a certain point of +/- error ?

 

That's the problem: he didn't.