Energy bars (not the kind you eat, or even stick up your bottom, if that's your thing)

[HagarTheHorrible]

Lots of talk around fighting revolves around energy, it's the bread and butter of aerial combat.

 

It is however something that is difficult to master, even more, feel, in a combat flight sim.

 

How about having energy bars, or health bars, added to the game ? OK, you can stop chucking stuff at me now, if you haven't half choked to death in incredulity.

 

Imagine, if you will, a training server, single player or multiplayer, a duel server, that shows both your energy state and that of your opponent with little coloured health bars next to or incorporated into the HUD.

 

I think it would be a real boon to pilots wanting to learn the basics of energy retention or even energy relative to their opponents. I think it would even be good for skilled and experienced pilots wanting to hone their skills further, being able to compare and analyse energy states throughout a fight when watching video replays. It might even be considered a USP, a new challenge, another type of game play.

[Y-29.Silky]

Your speedometer is your energy bar..

[[TWB]Outlaw-]

Your speedometer is your energy bar..

+altimeter

[FZG_Merlin]

That, with your altimeter...

 

Trade one for another, and back

[J2_Trupobaw]

If the game is aware how much energy your plane has, sure, why not. But (being ignorant of aerodynamics as I am) I suppose the energy is deriative of speed, altitude and mass of your plane. Throw in thrust and drag, because different planes need different potential energy to make the same moves while overcoming air resistance. I don't believe there is straightforward formula for energy your plane has which works for every plane. But I'd be glad to know if I'm wrong :D.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Trupobaw

[Y-29.Silky]

+altimeter

+Thankyou

 

Sounds cliche, but you can just feel the energy, you can sense it, it's really easy to pay attention to so you won't need an energy bar.

[VRPilot]

"energy" is relative. You are at 3k meters of altitude and your enemy is at 1k, you have more energy. If the same enemy is at 5k, he has more. An info like you kow have a potential energy of 12k Joule is pointless. You need to know how much more you have over your enemy!

[HagarTheHorrible]

Total energy is a combination of three types of energy. Kinetic, potential and chemical.

 

I think it would be really instructive to be able to see energy usage and relative energy levels between combatants especially in review . See where you won or lost a fight.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

I would suggest jumping on the MOD band wagon as soon as it arrives for BoS and create a Energy Bar Mod for BoS. Other wise, I seriously doubt you'll see any thing like this. Or at least I hope we don't.

 

Salute

Chief

[[TWB]Outlaw-]

I could see a way where if you could select a target a bar could show your total energy relative to theirs... But you need something to compare it. By itself would be meaningless.

[Finkeren]

Not only that, but it might be positively misleading. There is a limit to how much of an energy advantage you can actually put into play against your opponent. In a practical dogfight situation any altitude advantage of more than 2000m is superflous, and an altitude advantage of 4000m or more can even work against you because you'll have a hard time keeping track of your enemy and can't get down to his level quickly enough.

 

It gets even more complicated, when we factor in air speed as well. A fighter going 650km/h at 4000m nominally has a huge advantage over an enemy going 450 at 2500, but the first fighter will have a problems immediately putting that advantage to use, because it is going close to its maximum controllable/safe speed and will have to effectively reduce its energy advantage to be able to get close to his target.

[HagarTheHorrible]

All it is, is a tool to help pilots see, most often in review, were they lost or gained energy relative to an opponent that might help explain why they won or lost a fight. It certainly isn't the full story but, especially as you become more advanced, it increasingly becomes a determinant of success or failure. I think having a better, clearer, understanding would improve the skill level of pilots across the range of abilities, turning them from practiced pilots to skilled pilots with a deeper understanding of why things work, or don't.

Not only that, but it might be positively misleading. There is a limit to how much of an energy advantage you can actually put into play against your opponent. In a practical dogfight situation any altitude advantage of more than 2000m is superflous, and an altitude advantage of 4000m or more can even work against you because you'll have a hard time keeping track of your enemy and can't get down to his level quickly enough.

It gets even more complicated, when we factor in air speed as well. A fighter going 650km/h at 4000m nominally has a huge advantage over an enemy going 450 at 2500, but the first fighter will have a problems immediately putting that advantage to use, because it is going close to its maximum controllable/safe speed and will have to effectively reduce its energy advantage to be able to get close to his target.

That is exactly the point. A pilot might think he has a clear advantage in energy, masses of the stuff, and then completely blow it. In review he would be able to see where he went wrong, why and when he wasted energy, had too much energy etc etc.

[76SQN-FatherTed]

Well, I think it's a great idea Hagar (no sarcasm)  In RoF MP I usually fly Entente.  My natural flying style steers me towards the Camel, but that's a ride for haxxors, so I fly the SE.  I fly high and look down.  Sometimes I spy a bad guy below and dive to engage.  Thereafter it invariably goes wrong.  Despite starting with the E advantage I almost always end up twisting and turning on their level and then the game is up.  Of course you can all say, "Well you should fly more smoothly or more cleanly", but I want to see exactly where it is that my hamfistedness loses me my E.

 

The problem is, as others above have said, how to calculate and put a value on such an ill-defined commodity?

[Gambit21]

 OK, you can stop chucking stuff at me now, if you haven't half choked to death in incredulity.

Still choking. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

But it's not really ill defined. It is your cumulative energy state. Figuring it out is part of the joy of learning your ride. Maintaining E in the Fw is very different than the Bf and radically different than the LaGG due to relative retention and acceleration.

 

I am not at all in favor of additional in-game bars unless there is a video playback mode to show the whole engagement and relative E of everyone - after the fact. That WOULD be cool for debriefing and teaching but would have to be user made. I'd want to see flight paths, angles, lift vectors, G forces, etc in that case.

 

I tend to fly normal mode so I'm not some, "hardcore," guy either.

 

In response to another user; In the simplest of terms if you are climbing (edited), pulling back on the throttle (other than a vertical dive) or the joystick, you are burning E. How much and at what rate is variable.

Edited October 25, 2014 by HerrMurf

[39bn_pavig]

Perhaps you are forgetting the zoom part of boom and zoom. For an energy fighter it works like this (roundabouts).

 

Climb = trade power for altitude

Boom = trade altitude for speed

Zoom = trade speed for altitude

Then assess for the next swoop.

 

You always lose a bit of energy in the process, but you retain enough to outmanoeuvre the opponent after your single pass... But notice here, if you you throw away some of that energy you have in speed by turning, you have burned off your energy advantage and your opponent is now on a similar footing. Worse, turning burns energy in changing your vector, so if you have lots of energy stored in speed from your dive that you haven't burned off... then your lower energy opponent will turn tighter than you, get inside you, and turn the tables, or you'll overshoot them and find them on your six. Lower energy isn't always a bad thing.

 

So the energy that counts in the fight is speed. You can trade it for height and vis a vis, you can alter it with your engine etc, but it is the only energy from moment to moment you have to care about, because you can't change it instantly... You must trade. Tactics is figuring out what to trade it for and when.

 

The other part of the energy equation is power, or what your prop can put into the system and what your avionics take out. That accounts for many of the performance differences of the planes and what you can do moment to moment, but that is more esoteric. Suffice to say for example 109s have power to spare but Lagg3s don't, which makes the 109 more apt for vertical fighting, but the Lagg more happy doing low energy turn fights.

 

Each plane will have its own quirks, problems and sweet spots when it comes to moving energy around. In fact the difference between a plane flying well and flying like an epileptic cow is usually about power imbalances. Too much thrust may put too much energy into the system causing it to waste energy wallowing rather than turning it into useful altitude or speed. Tweak trim, rpm, throttle, pitch, speed etc and you'll find the balance changes and the plane smooths out - ie, power is being converted to energy efficiently.

 

The reverse happens when you are shifting energy around in a fight. Say you have a lot stored in speed, you're in a lagg, and you decide to pull a tighter turn. Suddenly your control surfaces slacken and you power stall into the ground. This is the problem of not being able to convert energy from one type to another (ie inertia to lift in this case) quickly or efficiently enough.

 

So despite lots of subtleties energy is pretty simple. It's speed really, and everything you can trade it for. But speed is the only moment to moment property of your plane that you need to worry about tactically. Everything else in the energy equation (altitude, power, etc) you kindof know about ahead of time.

[HagarTheHorrible]

energy is only half of the game the other half its angles

 

by the way in european air war you would have your speed and your foes which was pretty usefull

Yes, energy is only half, but it is a very important half. However it becomes more important the more advanced you become. Angles can be learned through practice or understanding the relative strengths and weaknesses of individual aircraft. Relative energy, and I stress relative, is a more difficult concept to judge, possibly more so on a two dimensional computer screen. It is one reason why rookies tend to go for TnB or aircraft that favor that style of fighting, need I say more than DR1 and Camel. They may become very skilled practitioners in those aircraft but in actuality their skills are in fact limited to a very narrow range rather than a full and complete understanding of aerial combat. Even pilots who favor BnZ may not fully grasp the true nature of energy, their success, again, relying as much on practice of certain moves and distracted or inept opponents as their victims, not that there is anything innately wrong with that approach but it is still less about understanding aerial combat and more about practice makes perfect with almost limitless willing victims who don't understand what just happened so repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

"Even pilots who favor BnZ may not fully grasp the true nature of energy, their success, again, relying as much on practice of certain moves and distracted or inept opponents as their victims, not that there is anything innately wrong with that approach but it is still less about understanding aerial combat and more about practice makes perfect with almost limitless willing victims who don't understand what just happened so repeat the same mistakes over and over again."

 

Except for the ability to respawn over and over, this pretty much mimics our place and time in the theatre. I'd venture to say aces killed aces far less frequently than aces killed rookies. Kinda cool how that works out in terms of replicating history.

[HagarTheHorrible]

While I know the concept sounds really gamey the people who I think would get the most from it are in fact the better pilots wanting to really analyze and fine tune their approach.

 

During gameplay I would envision a simple energy bar for each opponent in the dual showing relative energy, at a glance and wether it's going up or down, what moves burn energy, what causes your opponent to burn energy, where your opponent gained energy. In video replay I could see that energy bar being divided into it's two or three principle components, so that it could be further analyzed in more detail. Instructional videos could then be posted and shared around the community to help improve the ability of all.

 

It is by no means exhaustive, when it comes to learning about aerial combat, but relative energy is a vital aspect, the finer points of which are often poorly understood and difficult to use successfully. We have all been in situations were we started with what we thought was an overwhelming advantage only to have our but't's handed to us on a plate leaving us going "What the hell happened there".

"Even pilots who favor BnZ may not fully grasp the true nature of energy, their success, again, relying as much on practice of certain moves and distracted or inept opponents as their victims, not that there is anything innately wrong with that approach but it is still less about understanding aerial combat and more about practice makes perfect with almost limitless willing victims who don't understand what just happened so repeat the same mistakes over and over again."

Except for the ability to respawn over and over, this pretty much mimics our place and time in the theatre. I'd venture to say aces killed aces far less frequently than aces killed rookies. Kinda cool how that works out in terms of replicating history.

Fortunately, we have the opportunity to learn from our mistakes if we are shown the error of our ways. The same, unfortunately, could not be said of the real world.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Extremely disappointed not to get any brownie points yet. What's all the point of this creative genius if I don't get any brownie points ? I mean seriously how often, in a flight sim forum, do you get a strap line about sticking something up your bottom ? Now that is definitely worth a BROWNIE point or two, is it not ?

[76SQN-FatherTed]

But it's not really ill defined. It is your cumulative energy state. Figuring it out is part of the joy of learning your ride. Maintaining E in the Fw is very different than the Bf and radically different than the LaGG due to relative retention and acceleration.

 

I am not at all in favor of additional in-game bars unless there is a video playback mode to show the whole engagement and relative E of everyone - after the fact. That WOULD be cool for debriefing and teaching but would have to be user made. I'd want to see flight paths, angles, lift vectors, G forces, etc in that case.

 

 

Maybe "ill-defined" was the wrong expression - "not easily quantifiable" would be better.  And I wasn't thinking of an "E-o-meter" in-game.  Old IL2 had that thing in replays where you could see where your bullets hit in order to improve your gunnery - that's the sort of thing I'd be interested in.