Discussion about DCS:WW2 goes here.

[tempered]

The guys over at ATAG are giving away a set of top of the line rudder peddals to one lucky person that pledges $40 or more to DCS:WW2.

 

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5635

 

The rudder pedals are MFG Crosswinds. Probably the best set of pedals you could own. They are doing a lottery for those that post a screenshot of their pledge.

[Jaws2002]

I'm in. The more options the better. I sure hope they can get it going.

[Feathered_IV]

For me its not about trees being collidable, its not about the number of aircraft.  Whats holding me back are the managers of the team.  I just cant see giving my money to anything that Ilya or Oleg have anything to do with.  They were both managers of CloD and that is what killed that product.  Bad management.  

 

  Its nothing personal against them, Im sure they are chums to talk to or be around, but all I have to show from them is failure.  Im sure the coders they have are talented. but bad management can tank any project no matter what it is.  

 

I wont be kicking in for this starter, but if they show that they can make something decent, ontime, and relatively bug free, Ill pick it up then.   

 

I find it hilarious that a large number of people are doubting BoS because of 1C, but not DCS:WWII for ILya and Oleg.  here is a hint 1C didn't code Clod.  They just just financed it, until its failure was to much to bear as a company business wise.   If people would listen to the truth I suspect there would be a much different tone about that new project.

 

My 2 cents.

That's pretty much where I'm coming from too. I just don't believe they can do it. Maybe if they hired a proven, professional project manager, but not with the current arrangement. Sorry to say it, but I think there is already a familiar pattern forming.

[Revvin]

I agree with dburnette, the IL-2 franchise set new standards for flight sims an a lot of us here have likely spent countless hours enjoying the series. Yes CloD was a big disappointment but the previous titles gave me huge value for money so in that respect Oleg and co. are in credit in my ledger. I find it odd that all the blame is being heaped on Oleg and Ilya for CloD yet nobody wants to hold 1C accountable for any blame at all, they were all involved so surely must all shoulder some blame?

[Feathered_IV]

I dont tend to consider 1c accountable for the delays since its original 2006 schedule. Nor the three+ rewrites of the graphics engine. I certainly dont blame them for the millions they invested, or for finally pushing the kid out the door to face the real world. The management of Maddox Games needs to take responsibility for the quality of the title and the time it took them.

[ATAG_Slipstream]

For me personally, and I suspect a lot of people on this forum, I wouldn't even be here if is wasn't for the il2 series.

Luthier posted on the kickstarter page:

 

 

Also, a little clarification since a lot of people seem to be writing about this.

Here's what happens if we hit our base goal, but no stretch goals.

The final product that is released will have the following content:

FREE Flyable P-47
FREE Flyable Spitfire
FREE Flyable Bf.109
FREE Non-Flyable P-51 (can be made flyable for an additional fee)
FREE Non-Flyable FW.190D (can be made flyable for an additional fee)
FREE Non-Flyable B-17 (cannot be made flyable)
FREE Non-Flyable Me.262 (cannot be made flyable)

If you back the project at a $20 level, you will receive either the FW.190D or the P-51 as a flyable.

If you back the project at a $40 level, you will receive BOTH the FW.190D and the P-51 as flyables.

Now, if we hit stretch goals, then all additional aircraft will be seen by everyone as non-flyables, but will be available as a flyable for a fee. If you back at a $20 level, you will choose any ONE of the paid flyables. If you back at a $40 level, you will still receive ALL the paid flyables on release.

If we end up meeting our ultimate $1million stretch goal, that means you will receive 13 aircraft for backing at a $40 level or above.

And yes, all aircraft will be made to the same level of quality and high standards as the DCS P-51.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Yes that IL-2 that people are still playing 10 years later was a massive failure... you're being a bit unfair. For me with CloD they just tried to bite off too much and the project became unmanageable. This time around they just have to model the planes and the map. And the plane modelling is being done by Igor Tishin who did the P51. ED will also be reviewing and providing final sign-off on the quality. So overall the challenges are fewer and the guarantees that things will be done right are higher. Worth a punt any day of the week in my opinion.

 

Anyway you'll be able to try next year with 3 free flyables so you can't say fairer than that.

first off you can thank team Daidalos for the game being playable 10 years later, not Oleg or Ilya.  And Biting off more than you can chew is a pretty good definition of BAD MANAGEMENT.  It becoming unmanageable is just a symptom of bad management decisions.

 

  Again sounds like another who has ZERO clue what happened, how it went down or the colossally terrible decisions made by both Ilya and Oleg.  You blindly follow them like they were SIM GODS> but they WASTED your money.  Not a venture I would like to get involved in.

I agree with dburnette, the IL-2 franchise set new standards for flight sims an a lot of us here have likely spent countless hours enjoying the series. Yes CloD was a big disappointment but the previous titles gave me huge value for money so in that respect Oleg and co. are in credit in my ledger. I find it odd that all the blame is being heaped on Oleg and Ilya for CloD yet nobody wants to hold 1C accountable for any blame at all, they were all involved so surely must all shoulder some blame?

Blame them for what?  Having their money wasted on a project that had no feet?  They paid Oleg Millions yes MILLIONS of dollars, and look what he produced.  IT was a financial disaster.  IF you had a gardener and he kept killing your grass over and over and over then finally threw a rock threw your window.  Wouldn't you fire him?  I digress I wount go into any more about WHY i think they are incompetent.  suffice to say unless I see an actual product come out of this, blind faith is something they will not get from me.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Hooves

[Tektolnes]

TD readily acknowledge their debt to Oleg for creating the base that allowed them to keep modding the game to the extent it has been. TF feel the same way about CloD however it was mismanaged which everybody does recognise. Despite the past I'm willing to take a punt that lessons have been learned about trying to do too much. The fact that they're using a solid code base such as DCS suggests that maybe they have. I'm not blindly following them but am willing to provide backing as I know the final quality will have to be good or ED won't let it be released. And having 5 iconic birds done at the P51 level is too good an opportunity to pass up for me. If you have specific gripes about Oleg / Ilya I would suggest you follow the moderator's requests to take it elsewhere.

[Mac_Messer]

first off you can thank team Daidalos for the game being playable 10 years later, not Oleg or Ilya.  And Biting off more than you can chew is a pretty good definition of BAD MANAGEMENT.  It becoming unmanageable is just a symptom of bad management decisions.

 

  Again sounds like another who has ZERO clue what happened, how it went down or the colossally terrible decisions made by both Ilya and Oleg.  You blindly follow them like they were SIM GODS> but they WASTED your money.  Not a venture I would like to get involved in.

Blame them for what?  Having their money wasted on a project that had no feet?  They paid Oleg Millions yes MILLIONS of dollars, and look what he produced.  IT was a financial disaster.  IF you had a gardener and he kept killing your grass over and over and over then finally threw a rock threw your window.  Wouldn't you fire him?  I digress I wount go into any more about WHY i think they are incompetent.  suffice to say unless I see an actual product come out of this, blind faith is something they will not get from me.

What was that what I said about people holding personal grudges? Do you really need to post your hate drivel? You seem to have zero clue that this time the engine is already there, so Luthier won`t be the one to ruin it if that is what you mean.

You clearly have a personal agenda so please go back to general discussion  forcing people to preorder premiium packages of planes you haven`t even seen.

[Feathered_IV]

Calm it down a bit chaps.

[ST_ami7b5]

^^

+1

[=LD=Hethwill]

Being a "potential" investor I must say two things regarding the announcement:

 

1. Was too much talk without much said. I didn't watch the entire video, skipped big chunks of it.

 

2. Overall the project seems interesting but I'm not interested in owning just plane models. The content design is what buys my money.

 

Given the options presented I don't see any difference from an AccuSim in WW2.

Edited September 9, 2013 by =LD=Hethwill

[ATAG_Slipstream]

Its certainly good to have choices, from games such as WT all the way through to DCS level sims, and everything in between.

Personally I sometimes like to play easier games (like il2 and RoF)  and sometimes I like to pretend I am actually in a WW2 aircraft, with the high workload that entails.

DCS WWII will go ahead regardless, it will just be better for everyone with a love of combat flight sims in terms of content if the kickstarter is successful. People will decide to back it or not, depending on their own choice. I do find it strange that some people try to discredit anything that is not 'their' game though.This is a small enough niche as it is.Theres only so many of us geeks to go round.

Edited September 9, 2013 by JG4_Uther

[Zak]

Hooves, Mac_Messer, I know that it's way more exciting to discuss people instea of the game since there's no trace of a game yet. But please keep this forum clean from discussing personas, especially those who has no relation to our project.

[SYN_Haashashin]

I have one question.

 

Is the EDGE engine allready done? I think is not, it has been in the works for 2 years allmost I think. So please stop saying they will use a proved engine, well you can say it if they are going to use the old engine but not EDGE so if they are going to use EDGE, as far as I know is what they gonna use, please stop telling they gonna use a proven engine when the engine is not even published or have any other sim working on it, its not even out (for the videos I saw the engine looks great but dont know how it works in a WWII simulation untill I see it)

 

If its out and I dont know I apologize.

[Zmaj76]

I have one question.

 

Is the EDGE engine allready done? I think is not, it has been in the works for 2 years allmost I think. So please stop saying they will use a proved engine, well you can say it if they are going to use the old engine but not EDGE so if they are going to use EDGE, as far as I know is what they gonna use, please stop telling they gonna use a proven engine when the engine is not even published or have any other sim working on it, its not even out (for the videos I saw the engine looks great but dont know how it works in a WWII simulation untill I see it)

 

If its out and I dont know I apologize.

 

Another of those one side die hard fans which will do everything to sodomize something which they think is in the "other tent".....you surelly kept the tension going here...

 

Im sick now...

Edited September 9, 2013 by Tvrdi

[FlatSpinMan]

Guys, guys, guys

Go easy on DCS, the developers, and each other.

There's too much ill will floating around, especially on this topic.

 

You like one more than the other - yay! Good for you. Leave it at that.

 

Your opinion about people's past records attracts or dissuades you - fine. Use those feelings as a basis for deciding whether or not to back the kick starter, but leave any venom out of this forum or we'll have no choice but to close topics and so on.

We are a small community - we don't need to make it even smaller by squabbling and forming I internal divisions.

[SOLIDKREATE]

I would like to see a game play demo before I pledge. I do have to say the DCS crew really do know how to build a sim. I own DCS: A-10C Warthog and it is definitely not for a beginner. I plan on buying DCS: P-51D pretty soon as well. And when the DCS: Fw-190D comes out I will never leave my man cave.

[SYN_Haashashin]

Tvrdi as I say to you allready, if you want to get personal with me go to PM, I wont play your game in public forums.

 

I asked a legitime question, is EDGE published?? only because I see lots of people compare this to BoS, as been work on a fully funtional engine, to convince people to pledge for it.

If its is published I will say: Good, that way they dont have to worry about an engine working properly.

 

Again, a totally legitime question, still not answered, due to the comparison made by other users.

[Zmaj76]

Tvrdi as I say to you allready, if you want to get personal with me go to PM, I wont play your game in public forums.

 

I asked a legitime question, is EDGE published?? only because I see lots of people compare this to BoS, as been work on a fully funtional engine, to convince people to pledge for it.

If its is published I will say: Good, that way they dont have to worry about an engine working properly.

 

Again, a totally legitime question, still not answered, due to the comparison made by other users.

 

Well, you will get 3 freebies in final version....you dont even need to back them up if your so cautious....then you can try the new engine and then, ofcourse, support them with your money by purchasing two additional planes....

Edited September 9, 2013 by Tvrdi

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

EDGE is NOT published!

It's still a work in progress and therefore as stated they will NOT use a proven engine per se.

 

I would very much like it to be ready so I can use that engine in my DCS:WORLD though

Edited September 9, 2013 by 332_HaJa

[ATAG_Slipstream]

I would like to see a game play demo before I pledge. I do have to say the DCS crew really do know how to build a sim. I own DCS: A-10C Warthog and it is definitely not for a beginner. I plan on buying DCS: P-51D pretty soon as well. And when the DCS: Fw-190D comes out I will never leave my man cave.

Steam sale today, you will get 70% off the P51 and others....

[SYN_Haashashin]

EDGE is NOT published!

It's still a work in progress and therefore as stated they will NOT use a proven engine per se.

 

I would very much like it to be ready so I can use that engine in my DCS:WORLD though

 

Thanks.

[Uufflakke]

I asked a legitime question, is EDGE published??

 

Again, a totally legitime question, still not answered, due to the comparison made by other users.

 

No, EDGE is not published.

And no estimated time of arrival.

 

Quote from ED:

 

"June 2013

 

Work On New Rendering Technology Continues

 

The new Image Generator (IG) technology is currently in development and will be introduced to DCS World when it is ready. Elements of the new IG include:

- More detailed terrain.

- Better graphical effects

- Dedicated server

- DirectX 11 support

- Skeleton animation for infantry

---

A few items to reiterate:

1- Much of the Nevada map is done, but aspects of it could certainly change between now and release.

2- The original effort was done by a third party, but for various reasons, that effort did not work out and the Eagle team basically had to re-start it from scratch.

3- Due to the massive number of ground objects, elevation mesh detail, and texture sizes, a new image generator (IG) had to to be created in order to run it at more than single digit frame rates. Creating a new IG is a huge undertaking and it takes a lot of time. More so than anything else, this has been the reason behind the delay.

4- There has been no change in our plan to make this map available for free to those that purchased the A-10C beta.

5- Given the nature of the map, I would imagine that most missions will revolve around training, but certainly large Red Flag type campaigns are also possible.

6- We have no ETA at this time.

 

When there is a change to any of the above, there will be official news of it."

[SYN_Haashashin]

Thanks for the info.

Basically an unproven engine for a very ambitous proyect, just got a deja vu.

[Freycinet]

Given the options presented I don't see any difference from an AccuSim in WW2.

 

I don't know Accusim planes too well, but can you actually fight in them, shoot and bomb, and do they have a damage model?

 

If not, then I'd say there is a huge difference.

Thanks for the info.

Basically an unproven engine for a very ambitous proyect, just got a deja vu.

 

Ehhhh, DCS/Eagle Dynamics is a company that has more than proven its worth. They can be trusted to release a good engine if they say so.

 

But, ok, if you are basically just expressing a blanket disapproval of anything that is new and has not been produced yet then you can of course do that and ride happily on in your horse-drawn buggy.  :-) 

[Matt]

Steam sale today, you will get 70% off the P51 and others....

That's just fantastic, i just bought A-10C two days ago.

 

Glad they kept the same price for years on their E-shop. Anyway, i can definately recommend getting A-10C for that price (it's obviously worth the regular price).

 

I'll probably buy a few other modules, but my monthly flightsim expenses are high enough already. But Blackshark 2 looks really interesting to me.

[ST_ami7b5]

Well, you will get 3 freebies in final version....you dont even need to back them up if your so cautious....then you can try the new engine and then, ofcourse, support them with your money by purchasing two additional planes....

 

Did you get any 'official' answer about those tree-collisions?

That plus an absence of PayPal option at Kickstart is rather a stopper for me ATM... 

Steam sale today, you will get 70% off the P51 and others....

 

Haven't found it there...

Anyhow I already have most modules, including P-51.

[SYN_Haashashin]

Ehhhh, DCS/Eagle Dynamics is a company that has more than proven its worth. They can be trusted to release a good engine if they say so.

 

I agree, but in 1 year?? (not that they say so, they clearly said in June they dont have an ETA, but this sim is announcing they will been using it) and fully working meaning able to support a WWII air battle? Those are questions that noone can answer untill its release.

 

I have nothing against DCS/ED at all, I wont back it just cus is not my thing and they (RRG) didnt show me nothing to convince me. I spent 2 years in RoF without buying a thing because I didnt know where the sim was going.

 

Im expressing my doubts thats all.

[Tektolnes]

EDGE is NOT published!

It's still a work in progress therefore as stated they will NOT use a proven engine per se.

 

I would very much like it to be ready so I can use that engine in my DCS:WORLD though

Edge is the image generator. The actual coding of the planes, flight / engine dynamics, etc. is not handled by EDGE. They're programmed in the core world module which is a proven engine to work from.

[Uufflakke]

Did you get any 'official' answer about those tree-collisions?

 

Answer by Luthier on tree collisions  the 3rd of September:

 

"The problem with tree collisions, at least in my past experience, is just in the sheer number of collision objects.

There is probably a hundred million trees and bushes across a large gameplay map.

That's potentially up to a hundred million collision objects for the engine to track. You obviously need to track the trees any place there are planes at lower altitude. In a multiplayer match, for example, where you can have dozens of people flying all over the map, you may potentially need to track every single tree across the map. An extreme case, but you know what I mean. All these trees also need to be tracked constantly, every tick, multiple times a second.

You can't check for collisions between millions of 3D objects 20 times a second.

 

This kills the PC."

 

 

So my conclusion is: No tree collisions.

[ST_ami7b5]

^^ Thanks!

[Zmaj76]

Answer by Luthier on tree collisions  the 3rd of September:

 

"The problem with tree collisions, at least in my past experience, is just in the sheer number of collision objects.

There is probably a hundred million trees and bushes across a large gameplay map.

That's potentially up to a hundred million collision objects for the engine to track. You obviously need to track the trees any place there are planes at lower altitude. In a multiplayer match, for example, where you can have dozens of people flying all over the map, you may potentially need to track every single tree across the map. An extreme case, but you know what I mean. All these trees also need to be tracked constantly, every tick, multiple times a second.

You can't check for collisions between millions of 3D objects 20 times a second.

 

This kills the PC."

 

 

So my conclusion is: No tree collisions.

 

Direct answer to my question was in fact this:

 

Let me be perfectly frank here.

 

I just cannot promise it at this time. All I can promise is that we will try.

 

I may have deja vu after my old project, where we've had quite a few instances of saying "we will do this" instead of a more semantically correct "we will try to do this", and where we eventually ended up not being able to deliver what we promised.

 

As it is today, EDGE is still being integrated with the rest of the game. That's precisely what's being done right now, today, having various game objects interact with terrain. Vehicles need to drive, planes need to collide, etc. 

 

We're obviously extremely interested in having tree collisions. There's no gameplay or realism reason for why it should not be that way. The only reason why trees would not have collisions is performance. 

 

There are obvious algorithms for making this work. There are also less obvious ones. We need to finish the programming, try things out, and make sure everything works well.

 

Need to point out that the people working on this are ED programmers. They're outside my control, and they obviously had absolutely nothing to do with any of my old projects.

 

This is why I personally cannot say with 100% certainty we will have tree collisions. My certainty is, let's say, 93.6%. This may be PTSD talking, but I don't think that's good enough for a promise, especially if your pledge depends on it. 

 

source

Edited September 9, 2013 by Tvrdi

[BFsSmurfy]

What was that what I said about people holding personal grudges? Do you really need to post your hate drivel? You seem to have zero clue that this time the engine is already there, so Luthier won`t be the one to ruin it if that is what you mean.

You clearly have a personal agenda so please go back to general discussion  forcing people to preorder premiium packages of planes you haven`t even seen.

 

 

Everyone who has seen the BoS product in the flesh has given it a massive thumbs up, that is undeniable, I`ve seen it it`s a working living piece of software. So far from DCS WW2 we`ve seen a plane thats already done by someone else, scenary that is a static image and half a 190 cockpit. I`ve put $40 because it`s nothing to me if I lose it, I put $90 into BoS because I`d clearly seen what I was getting for my money from a team that talks openly to it`s customers and delivers. Communication has always been Ilyas weak point imo, although that might be explained by all the abuse he got at Banana (no surprise) and other issues which none of us really know about.

 

Pacific Fighters had issues that`s undeniable it had planes listed that weren`t in the box, and again we`ve seen bad proof reading from day one with the latest venture, mistakes in the list K or a G?, misunderstandings with who was getting what, and stretch goals that are quite clearly un-attainable in 30 days and over ambitious, if it gets 500000 I`ll run naked round my town centre twice!!. People aren`t doubting their ability, they`re doubting their project management skills, hopefully the videos will satisfy people and they`ll achieve their goals, I want both projects to succeed but if I had to put my money on one at the bookies it would go to BoS.

 

Looking forward to the video.

Edited September 9, 2013 by BFsSmurfy

[Freycinet]

Ok, Smurfy as a streaker, another reason to get those pledges flowing in!

 

Hmmm, with all this 'pledges' stuff I'm beginning to hear myself sounding like a televangelist... ;-)

[Matt]

Ordered Blackshark 2 and P-51. Just too cheap now. .

 

I guess my pledge has to wait till next month then.

[BFsSmurfy]

You`ll have to get it in before the 5th mate I think.

[Lensman1945]

Ordered Blackshark 2 and P-51. Just too cheap now. .

 

I guess my pledge has to wait till next month then.

It's a pledge...your card won't be charged until the 5th October ...assuming the target is reached of course.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

What was that what I said about people holding personal grudges? Do you really need to post your hate drivel? You seem to have zero clue that this time the engine is already there, so Luthier won`t be the one to ruin it if that is what you mean.

You clearly have a personal agenda so please go back to general discussion forcing people to preorder premiium packages of planes you haven`t even seen.

You mistake my lack of trustn. For hate. I do not hate them. I just have zero faith in their management. Why do you misconstrue this as hate?

 

And how exactly am I forcing people to pre order? And that statement is pretty ironic don't you think? You are preordering a project that doesn't even exist yet, let alone planes. Just relax Mac. These are but my opinions.

 

As for them using an existing engine. That is a fair point. One that keeps me keeping an eye on the project awaiting its completion. At which point I personally will re evaluate dropping my money on it. But ease upon the accusations dude. You sound very angry. And if this post makes you that angry I apoligize. They are only personal feelings.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Hooves

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

New Video here....

 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/posts/593803

 

 

Nice video, though i dont think people still unsure about the project are going to be swayed by it.
What we need is videos and pictures of the actual project, maybe there is more to come yet...if not then i think maybe the kickstarter has been a bit premature.

All we have is thoughts and ideas, while that maybe good enough for people who know DCS and are already interested in WW2 flight sims, its not going to be enough for a more varied crowd of possible customers.

Hope Luthier has more up his sleeve.