Discussion about DCS:WW2 goes here.

[Nil]

The A-10C is really nice. not much of a jet.. and sometimes really deserves to be called a hog. But fun and greats systems in it.. but one single unlucky *plink* might be lights out on both MFD's and the hud, and mean a RTB  If you don't want to take a chance, and go really low with the lovely cannon (and risk another *plink*).

But at $11.99 you can't find a nicer ground pounder!

[ST_ami7b5]

I have A-10C already.

Very nice plane indeed.

[BFsSmurfy]

The Sabre is as close as you`ll probably get to prop style fighting (guns v guns), hence why I bought it. If they do a Mig-15 and get a Mig-Alley scenario going I`d be well up for that. On the other hand the multiplayer is crap and promises aside shows little sign of improvement + the map is equally crap. $15 gotta be worth a punt at that??

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Depending. If you can settle with a stunnignly detailed plane and flying fun SP sorties / freeflights you might not have to hesitate, if not...well, it's you decision.

 

I'm totally not a jet guy and only bouht the A-10A as it's an exeptional case to me, even though I have no clue what all this armarment and stuff is useable for. My interest is DCS WW2, hence why I own the P-51 and the Dora.

If EDGE won't change anything on the current MP situation I fear those birds will be uterly useless until some maps and content arrives.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 I am following the implementation of the new EDGE engine, maybe it will bring DCS closer to "modern standards" regarding graphics. The MP has always been a bit on the worse side in DCS, their code just needs quite a revamp to be able to host a plethora of players and AI etc. If they fix that and get the new EDGE working fine = DCS will get a significant boost.

[ST_ami7b5]

Still not too much into jets...

But the Sabre is tempting...

 

The Sabre is as close as you`ll probably get to prop style fighting (guns v guns), hence why I bought it. If they do a Mig-15 and get a Mig-Alley scenario going I`d be well up for that. On the other hand the multiplayer is crap and promises aside shows little sign of improvement + the map is equally crap. $15 gotta be worth a punt at that??

 

So I gave up and bought also the Sabre - just couldn't resist, LOL.

[Trooper117]

Yep, got the Sabre...

I'm waiting for the Spit though... it will be a first day buy for me, and the main aircraft I will fly on DCS while I wait for the map!

[Feathered_IV]

I bought the p-51 when the steam edition came out. If I buy say, the Huey now direct from ED will I be able to transfer the key, or will I need two separate installs? Not sure I'm up for that.

[Chuck_Owl]

Please take note that you cannot transfer a Non-Steam Version serial (bought on ED store) to the Steam Version. However, you can transfer a Steam serial to a Non-Steam version of DCS. See following pdf.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20586543/HOW%20TO%20TRANSFER%20A%20DCS%20MODULE%20BOUGHT%20FROM%20STEAM%20INTO%20A%20DCS%20WORLD%20VERSION%20DOWNLOADED%20FROM%20DIGITALCOMBATSIMULATOR.pdf

Edited October 21, 2014 by 71st_AH_Chuck

[Requiem]

Yep, got the Sabre...

I'm waiting for the Spit though... it will be a first day buy for me, and the main aircraft I will fly on DCS while I wait for the map!

I got the Sabre too. Lovely aircraft and can't wait until some RAAF skins are made for it

[GrieverGriever_XIV]

I got me the Dora and I think I'm in love.

[Feathered_IV]

 

Please take note that you cannot transfer a Non-Steam Version serial (bought on ED store) to the Steam Version. However, you can transfer a Steam serial to a Non-Steam version of DCS. See following pdf.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20586543/HOW%20TO%20TRANSFER%20A%20DCS%20MODULE%20BOUGHT%20FROM%20STEAM%20INTO%20A%20DCS%20WORLD%20VERSION%20DOWNLOADED%20FROM%20DIGITALCOMBATSIMULATOR.pdf

 

 

Thanks Chuck, that will come in handy!

[Trooper117]

Chuck beat me to it

I have bought steam DCS aircraft in a sale and transferred them easily enough.

But it's a pity it can't be done the other way around...

[=AH=_Sid_]

I got the Sabre too. Lovely aircraft and can't wait until some RAAF skins are made for it

 

You mean like these?

 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

I'm really eying the K-4..

[Chuck_Owl]

Now THAT's some formation flying.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkJV1nE0tx8

[Lusekofte]

Very nice flying Chuck, I really did not pay any attention to this game because of the P-51. I know it is a beautiful plane, but firstly Fighters is really not my cup of tea, and the P-51 never was my favorite. In real life it probably would have been.

I am more into the survival game, fly a underdog and try to survive. The P-40 looks interesting, but stand no chance in one vs one fight. 

Anyway I now own Sabre (not flown it yet) , Huey (not flown it yet) , MI 8 (Not flown it yet) P-51(a couple of free flight) I did not like it, its performance in the air is perfect, no bad behavior, I probably should try it out in a takeoff situation. FW 190 DORA Tried to take off about 50 times without succeeding got it up maybe 12 times since and still not for one reason fed up. SU 25 (the only jet really fascinating me, but have not yet flown it) and pre ordered the 109 K

I hate the DCS setup interface, it can only register 3 extra controllers and my setup require 5 . But I will overcome beggars cannot be choosers, I hope for multiengine planes, I really hope this game will have a B-17 like the one in FSX, I would abandoned all other games if I could flown a heavy with complex FM and model

Edited November 10, 2014 by LuseKofte

[Pringliano]

I have posted sometime ago a way of setting the Dora aileron trim tab for better balance and over the full sprectrum of regimes. You can find it here:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=131508

 

Unfortunately I am extremely picky about flight dynamics modeling, and while this bug doesn't get addressed, I will not return to DCS World :-(

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2222250&postcount=14

 

DCS has a lot of potential though, just as BOS, but strangely, I am becoming a fan of CoD... Couldn't imagine that would happen just a few days ago :-)

Edited November 10, 2014 by jcomm

[snowsnipersnow_sniper]

 

 

"Unfortunately I am extremely picky about flight dynamics modeling, and while this bug doesn't get addressed, I will not return to DCS World :-("

 

-->" the Fw190 had ground adjustable rudder and aileron trim tabs"

 

so it's not a bug, just a lak of the Ground crew interface. Difficult for me to anderstand you leave DCS if your main interrest is accurate Flight dynamic modeling.

 

So far, DCS have the most accurate high level and complex FM, make you feel you fly the real heavy bird IMO.

 

 

 

Anyway I now own Sabre (not flown it yet) , Huey (not flown it yet) , MI 8 (Not flown it yet) P-51(a couple of free flight) I did not like it, its performance in the air is perfect, no bad behavior, I probably should try it out in a takeoff situation. FW 190 DORA Tried to take off about 50 times without succeeding got it up maybe 12 times since and still not for one reason fed up. SU 25 (the only jet really fascinating me, but have not yet flown it) and pre ordered the 109 K

 

 

Gives them time and practice. Focus on one and when you manage to grab some fun and pleasure to do the job well, feel you have lots of other plane to discover .  Check your settings " 0% assistance" .

Dora take off and landing is not a problem anymore, Just a challenging awesome plane,   Landing and hovering the Huey is a awesome challenging experience ( best helicopter sim ever IMO )

...

 

What i don't like in DCS is the business side : 

Hawk will be only SFM in first time ...

 

Me 109 will be only ASM ( as FC3...)  and no PFM  :

 

" The flight dynamics of the Bf 109 K-4 are a further develops the Advanced Flight Model principles started with the Su-25 and then later improved to Professional Flight Model (A-10C, P-51D, Fw 190 D-9 etc.)."

I would probably not have pre order it if I had well read this.

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2014 by snowsnipersnow_sniper

[Pringliano]

 

 

"Unfortunately I am extremely picky about flight dynamics modeling, and while this bug doesn't get addressed, I will not return to DCS World :-("

 

-->" the Fw190 had ground adjustable rudder and aileron trim tabs"

 

so it's not a bug, just a lak of the Ground crew interface. Difficult for me to anderstand you leave DCS if your main interrest is accurate Flight dynamic modeling.

 

So far, DCS have the most accurate high level and complex FM, make you feel you fly the real heavy bird IMO.

 

 

Sniper, of course I know the Fw190 had ground adjustable trim tabs :-)

 

In my mod, if you followed my first link, you can find the way to adjust one of them - the aileron trim tabs on ground :-)

 

The bug I refer to comes in the second link and has to do with the wrong modelling of prop effects in the presence of crosswind.

 

What happens presently in DSC World with prop aircraft like the p51d, or the Dora, is that if you set a crosswind component of, say, 10m/s ( around 20 knot ), it doesn't matter if from your left or from your right, during takeoff run, specially if you accelerate too fast and / or use the first dettent of flaps, your aircraft will "veer" downwind!!!! This is, IMHO, an overdone propwash deflection effect over the downwind wing.

 

In the presence of a crosswind, specially a strong one, an aircraft will wetahercock, and try to point INTO THE WIND, not AWAY FROM THE WIND!  It will require "aileron into the wind" and "rudder away from the wind"  not "rudder into the wind" and "aileron away from the wind" like it does presently in DCS World when crosswinds are present.

 

What they're trying to model makes sense, but it's effects are clearly overdone. The modeled effect is that of a propwash washing your downwind wind and horizontal stab. At takeoff power this can happen, on the Dora to give you an example, at a speed of 30m/s, so, it does have an effect, creating additional lift, ans associated drag. This can soften the weathercock tendency, and even prop effects if the wind comes from the left on a CW rotating prop aircraft, but can't certainly, unless during the first seconds of your takeoff run, turn your aircraft nose downwind!!!

Edited November 10, 2014 by jcomm

[snowsnipersnow_sniper]

so ...

 

 

Not sure to anderstand everythings but It's really interresting,  What you explain is the same as this picts isn't ?

[Pringliano]

so ...

 

 

Not sure to anderstand everythings but It's really interresting,  What you explain is the same as this picts isn't ?

 

Yes sniper,

 

but if your try it in DCS World just as it is right now, using a prop aircraft ( because the bug is not present in jet aircraft ), you will find that instead of the techniques on those pictures you'll be forced to do the exact opposite because your p51d or Dora will, in the prsence of crosswind, want to nose downwind ( away from the wind )....  It's a bug IMHO.

[9./JG27golani79]

but if your try it in DCS World just as it is right now, using a prop aircraft ( because the bug is not present in jet aircraft ), you will find that instead of the techniques on those pictures you'll be forced to do the exact opposite because your p51d or Dora will, in the prsence of crosswind, want to nose downwind ( away from the wind )....  It's a bug IMHO.

 

Couldn´t it be related to speed / rpm and torque?

Just did some tests and when approaching the runway with idle engine the nose was pushed away from the wind - when giving full power the tail was pushed away from the wind.

 

I also tried it in BoS and it pretty much behaved the same way though the effect wasn´t that strong in BoS as in DCS.

[Pringliano]

@golani

 

make sure you know exactly where from the wind is coming, because in DCS World in the mission menu the logic of the wind direction is opposite what we use IRL.

 

Use the arrows and rotate them so that they point from 9 o'clock, or from 3 o'clock  ( full left or full right ) before starting your tests.

 

If you make the wind come from 9 o'clock ( portside ), you have a left wind component. Make it 10 m/s... Under such a situation all forces are concurring to make your p51d or Dora turn INTO the wind:

 

- the wind is pushing from the left, so the airplane will weathercock to the left;

- the prop effects try to turn the aircraft to the left

 

But! you'll find out that instead of this, your prop aircraft will start pointing downwind, ( starboard side ), so, to the right in this case, requiring the unrealistic use of LEFT RUDDER ( rudder into the wind  which doesn't make any sense! ) and LEFT AILERON ( Aileron away from the wind, which again doesn't make sense... ).

Edited November 10, 2014 by jcomm

[snowsnipersnow_sniper]

Just did some tests with  my DCS P51 at sochi , with a 10m/s wind from my right.

 if I do nothing  on take off, my P51  point is nose IN the Wind. It feels right (because of the Wind applied on the tail rudder surface ?)

so I had to put  some rudder to the left  to turn a bit left, to counteract and some roll on right wing to put it  down "in the wind".

 

once in air. I had to put some right rudder to keep Plane on Heading.

 

It feels realistic, the same as the pic above,  unfact I misanderstood something. ..

 

 

I go give a try with a 10 m/s from my left now to see difference with prop effect.

I'll try then in BOS. 

 

I want to clearly anderstand that.

Edited November 10, 2014 by snowsnipersnow_sniper

[9./JG27golani79]

I watched the smoke trails from the chimneys to see from where the wind was coming but I´ll do some further tests.

[Pringliano]

Just did some tests with  my DCS P51 at sochi , with a 10m/s wind from my right.

 if I do nothing  on take off, my P51  point is nose IN the Wind. It feels right (because of the Wind applied on the tail rudder surface ?)

so I had to put  some rudder to the left  to turn a bit left, to counteract and some roll on right wing to put it  down "in the wind".

 

once in air. I had to put some right rudder to keep Plane on Heading.

 

It feels realistic, the same as the pic above,  unfact I misanderstood something. ..

 

 

I go give a try with a 10 m/s from my left now to see difference with prop effect.

I'll try then in BOS. 

 

I want to clearly anderstand that.

 

 

Are you using the latest version of DCS? This bug was only recently introduced ( around the time the Dora was released ... )

 

Also, make sure you really know where the wind is coming from. The default Batumi  takeoff sit has a faint wind...

 

Did you open the mission editor and manually set the wind using the arrows?  I assume you are aware that in DCS when it says WIND 270, it means what we say 090 IRL, because DCS weathermen tell you "where it goes to" and not "from where it comes" :-)

 

ALSO: are you using ZERO takeoff and RUDDER assist?

Edited November 10, 2014 by jcomm

[snowsnipersnow_sniper]

latest version : of course yes 1.2.10.XX

wind in mission editor : arrow point direction : OK.  ( once in air easy to see the wind comes from where it should be ...) 

Zero takeoff and Zero Rudder assit :  Of course. 

 

here a .trk with Take off and landing. ( not defaut skin hope it will works in your user/doc/dcs/track folder.

( not my best one ;-) but enough to test rudder and aileron attitude  and see wind direction in flight ...)

 

180 wind take off and landing.zip

[snowsnipersnow_sniper]

As i rewatch my track.  I see my right aileron "in the wind"  is down instead of Up.  So you're completly right for aileron.  Must be a bug.

Could be the Torque effect so strong you have to conteract it, unless there's a 10m/s wind ? I'll have to do a "no wind" test to see how i used to do with the torque effect alone.

 

for Rudder, i think it's more difficult to know.

[Emgy]

 

What i don't like in DCS is the business side : 

Hawk will be only SFM in first time ...

 

Me 109 will be only ASM ( as FC3...)  and no PFM  :

 

" The flight dynamics of the Bf 109 K-4 are a further develops the Advanced Flight Model principles started with the Su-25 and then later improved to Professional Flight Model (A-10C, P-51D, Fw 190 D-9 etc.)."

I would probably not have pre order it if I had well read this.

 

 

Correct about the Hawk, but ED's 109 will be of the same standards as their P-51 and 190, that is: PFM and ASM.

ASM = advanced systems modeling = having a clickable cockpit and detailed modeling of the engine internals, radio systems etc.

 

They need to clean up their TLAs (three-letter acronyms) because it causes a lot of confusion with EFM, PFM, ASM... And the 3rd party devs need to constantly explain why they're making "EFM to AFM standards" and not AFM.

EFM: external flight model = FM not made by Eagle Dynamics

 

P.S. jcomm... real Ronaldo was born in Brazil!!! 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Calvamos

[snowsnipersnow_sniper]

you're right about confusion about ASM and AFM

 

but 109 will be AFM or PFM  ? i read AFM on Ed site " The flight dynamics of the Bf 109 K-4 are a further develops the Advanced Flight Model principles started with the Su-25 "

 

so AFM+ or real PFM?

 

 

 

for In to the wind bug following :

 

did some test on "Natural" deviation in different condition to see Torque effect with no wind, natural deviation with left and right wind.

It seems deviation attitude differs with the speed and initial rudder input : 

for a right wind, with no joystick action : plane seems to have a strong deviation to the left due to the torque effect ( opposite than propeller turns ?) .  With at start right rudder input and increasing speed. Plane seems to have then natural deviation to the right "into the wind" ...?

Edited November 10, 2014 by snowsnipersnow_sniper

[Pringliano]

As i rewatch my track.  I see my right aileron "in the wind"  is down instead of Up.  So you're completly right for aileron.  Must be a bug.

Could be the Torque effect so strong you have to conteract it, unless there's a 10m/s wind ? I'll have to do a "no wind" test to see how i used to do with the torque effect alone.

 

for Rudder, i think it's more difficult to know.

 

 

You will see, specially if you use flaps fro the takeoff, which magnifies this deflected propwash effect, that you will actually have to use rudder awaya from the wind! which is totally inconsistent with RL...

 

I'm not next to my game PC right now, but I'll see your track ASAP! and report back ;-)

[snowsnipersnow_sniper]

Torque effect : same as the pic below :

http://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c2c2f9e6975a1f410423378029f5f142?convert_to_webp=true

 

So in a NO Wind condition, we should have right aileron up to conteract more than rudder needed.

 

"single propeller planes produce torque as in picture, which makes planes to bank left, eventually taking left turn. The torque produced has effect on roll parameter and not on yaw of plane, which can be corrected by changing the position of ailerons.

At this point we can think problem is solved. But, this aileron deflection has effect of making airplane uneven because one side of plane produces more drag than other. This increase in drag causes the plane to yaw to left. As yaw parameter is related to rudder, and can be corrected by changing position of rudder."

 

In a Right strong Wind condition :  we should have right aileron up to down the wing "in to the wind".

 

so : Very strong right wind + Torque effect : deffinitly the right aileron should be up

[Pringliano]

@sniper,

 

your track is for an F86 inflight ?

 

Anyway, attached you can find a mission file. Place it in your Quick Missions folder:

 

<..>\ Eagle Dynamics \ DCS World \ Mods \ aircraft \ TF-51D \ Missions \ EN \ QuickStart

 

or anywhere else, start DCS, start the Mission editor and pick this one.

 

You will be placed at Batumi rw, in the TF-51, with a 11m/s wind from your LEFT. So.... all the effects will sum up! to make your aircraft drift to the left, the wind and the prop effects!

 

The "bug" will prove even worst if you use the first notch of flaps for takeoff!

 

As you start your takeoff roll, you will notice the aircraft nose will start pointing to the RIGHT, instead of to the LEFT !!!!  You will be forced to use LEFT RUDDER and even RIGHT AILERON.

 

You might excuse the right aileron with the torque effects, but if you now set a situation with a wind from the right, you will end with the opposite outcome, and be forced to use left aileron!

 

Hope you're able to see what I meant now ;-)

TF-51_Hot start xwind.zip

Edited November 10, 2014 by jcomm

[snowsnipersnow_sniper]

Everythings seems to be realistic on that video try, give a look please. I'm going to try your track.

(right Wind 10m/s Sochi P-51. see control indicator on left side (Rctrl Enter) and right aileron seems up as it should . see smoke on horizon.)

 

http://youtu.be/YlISlU2u2nw

 

[snowsnipersnow_sniper]

've try you mission with control indicator on.

 

well, perhaps with a LEFT wind, prop effect annilihate the need to Up your left aileron up ? anywhy I had to use up left aileron a bit.

 

something strange, once in flight the plane seems to crab into wind without or very less  rudder action.

 

Try this : in a level flight same heading as the runway, stop your throttle to 0 increase it quickly full and see torque effect on the left wind. Do the same in the opposite way ( right wind )

[Pringliano]

Yes, done those tests ... all of them

 

Problem is, if you now set a wind from your right, the problem is still there but reversed.... The aircraft will veer left, you will have to apply right rudder  AND left aileron!!!!

 

Thanks for the youtube link!

The big problem with it is that the wind in this case comes from the right, and as soon as you start rolling, the aircraft veers ( left )...  Yes correct use of aileron is being made, but should the wind be set stronger and you would find yourself using left aileron!!!

 

This only happens with prop aircraft! Try the same with the f-86, a10, etc... and they'll correctly crab with the wind.

 

The explanation given to me when I reported this "bug" was that it was caused by the effects of the deflected propwash washing the downwind wing, creating additional lift there, and of course necessarily drag too ( induced drag in that case... )

 

It makes sense if it wasn't modeled this huge!  IRL it certainly plays a role, just as when you use aileron into the wind the drag created by the aileron ( going down ) on your downwind wing will contribute with some additional drag that also helps reducing the weathercock effect..., but still, none of these effects should be so pronounced as capable of overlapping the wind effects.

 

Your observations are also correct. I even recorded a video of an approach. The wind was from the left, the p51d cam down crabed ( nose heading left ) and as I approached the rw, and entered ground effect, I didn't even have to use the rudder to uncrab, because the aircraft started reducing the crab angle and aligning with the rw centerline by itself :-(

 

This bug was introduced close or after the release of the Dora, because I never experienced it before. Other than this DCS models the various prop effects very plausibly, including the spiraling slisptream compensation for the roll due to torque as the top of the vertical fin and rudder are hit from the left, and since above the CoG, create a moment opposite the one of torque.... Problem is when you now add wind to the equation :-(

 

I look forward for it to be fixed. Honestly for me this sort of inaccuracies are true show killers for me :-(

Edited November 10, 2014 by jcomm

[Chuck_Owl]

you're right about confusion about ASM and AFM

 

but 109 will be AFM or PFM  ? i read AFM on Ed site " The flight dynamics of the Bf 109 K-4 are a further develops the Advanced Flight Model principles started with the Su-25 "

 

so AFM+ or real PFM?

 

Just look on the main website page: http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/

 

 

Like previous DCS World titles, DCS: Bf 109 K-4 Kurfürst features a painstakingly reproduced model of the aircraft, including the external model, fully interactive cockpit, mechanical systems, and a Professional Flight Model (PFM). Along the lines of our DCS: P-51D Mustang and DCS: Fw 190 D-9 Dora titles, DCS: Bf 109K-4 Kurfürst places you behind the controls of a powerful, propeller-driven, piston engine combat aircraft. Designed long before “fly-by-wire” technology was available to assist the pilot in flight control or smart bombs and beyond visual range missiles were developed to engage targets with precision from afar, the Kurfürst is a personal and exhilarating challenge to master. Powerful and deadly, the last production model of the only single-engined German fighter to see service throughout World War II, the Kurfürst provides an exhilarating combat experience to its drivers, and a worthy challenge to all fans of DCS: P-51D Mustang.

Key Features of the DCS: Bf 109 K-4 Kurfürst:

• Unmatched flight physics that allow you to truly feel what it's like to fly this legend.
• Highly detailed, six-degrees-of-freedom (6 DOF) cockpit.
• Interact with cockpit controls with your mouse.
• Accurate Bf 109 K-4 model, squadron markings, and weapons.
• Detailed modelling the Bf 109 K-4 instruments, weapons, engine, radios, fuel, and electrical systems.
• Fly along with fellow DCS: Fw 190 D-9 Doras as you battle DCS: P-51D Mustangs in single and multiplayer games.

 

There is absolutely NO reason whatsoever for the 109 to have a lesser flight model. Especially since Yo-Yo is the guy coding the flight model, and this guy has very, very high standards. The Bf.109 will come with PFM (the real stuff), just like the Spitfire, the P-47and the Me-262.

Edited November 11, 2014 by 71st_AH_Chuck

[Trooper117]

Have to say, when the Spit comes out I don't think I'm going to be flying anything else on any other sims for quite some time

[DD_bongodriver]

Have to say, when the Spit comes out I don't think I'm going to be flying anything else on any other sims for quite some time

 

My skeletal remains will be found with an oculus rift strapped to the skull.