Discussion about DCS:WW2 goes here.

[csThor]

Can't generate any excitement for this one and it has nothing to do with Ilya - it's the setting. I've just seen too much of that particular theater and timeframe to have any interest left. Of course for someone primarily interested in the Allied side of things this sounds great, but to me - as a LW-centric player - the Eastern Front and North Africa (at least until the end in Tunisia) are far more interesting and diverse. But that is just my personal opinion.

 

Anyway, I wish Ilya good luck with his project.

Edited September 4, 2013 by csThor

[ST_ami7b5]

^^ I have also more preferred theatres - in this order:

- Eastern front

- Pacific

- BoB

- Africa

[heinkill]

Smurfy,

 

It's a crowd-sourcing tool to raise money for projects before they are produced. Some projects get huge funding and some crash and burn. It's the latest trend in financing projects other investors don't want to touch. 

 

Jason

 

I don't think this is a matter of no one wanting to touch this project. After all, DCS would not lend their brand to a project they did not want to touch. 

 

I think rather this is Ilya Yevchenko's way of trying to deal with his frustration over publishers giving him what he regards to be unrealistic timelines and interfering in game design issues. By being at least partly self funded, he will get the financial freedom to do the project his way.

 

At least that is what he wrote:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by heinkill 

1. Is the kickstarter funding needed to fund the basic game, or just the extended content?

We can probably finish the basic game without the kickstarter, but it'll be a little less of everything, especially on the ground.

 

Basic kickstarter funding we're looking for will allow us to comfortably do everything we wish to do and have all the time that we need, which is the luxury I personally have never had in my entire career.

[JG27_Chivas]

I don't think this is a matter of no one wanting to touch this project. After all, DCS would not lend their brand to a project they did not want to touch. 

 

I think rather this is Ilya Yevchenko's way of trying to deal with his frustration over publishers giving him what he regards to be unrealistic timelines and interfering in game design issues. By being at least partly self funded, he will get the financial freedom to do the project his way.

 

At least that is what he wrote:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by heinkill 

1. Is the kickstarter funding needed to fund the basic game, or just the extended content?

We can probably finish the basic game without the kickstarter, but it'll be a little less of everything, especially on the ground.

 

Basic kickstarter funding we're looking for will allow us to comfortably do everything we wish to do and have all the time that we need, which is the luxury I personally have never had in my entire career.

 

 

I agree.  Kickstarter has funded things like the Oculus Rift to the tune of 2.4 mil.   Then private investors added another 16 million.  I'm sure there are quite a few projects in Kickstarter that found it very hard to find investors in todays very week markets, nevermind investing in the low return combat flight sim market.  It was probably more of shot than anything else.

[SYN_Ricky]

If they already have the P-51D and FW-190D I really wonder why they want to model the Normandy area, they would better do an Ardennes/Germany map for late-war scenarios...just my 2c.

[Rama]

If they already have the P-51D and FW-190D I really wonder why they want to model the Normandy area, they would better do an Ardennes/Germany map for late-war scenarios...just my 2c.

Probably because they allready have the historical maps sources needed to build the map.... the same they used for CloD

[SYN_Ricky]

Probably because they allready have the historical maps sources needed to build the map.... the same they used for CloD

 

I thought about that, but still it would be a shame to have high fidelity and historically correct aircraft models and to finally having them fly in an unhistorical map....

[Rama]

Well... if they really want to do something in less than a year with a small budget, they probably have to re-use everything they can.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Rama

[Feathered_IV]

Has the kickstarter launch gone ahead?  Heard it was supposed to be on the 4th.  Am curious to see how much money a developer reckons it takes to make a flight sim.  Until now, that has always been a closely guarded secret.

[dburne]

Has the kickstarter launch gone ahead?  Heard it was supposed to be on the 4th.  Am curious to see how much money a developer reckons it takes to make a flight sim.  Until now, that has always been a closely guarded secret.

 

No the video and details are going to be released on the 5th.

[Pizzicato]

Has the kickstarter launch gone ahead?  Heard it was supposed to be on the 4th.  Am curious to see how much money a developer reckons it takes to make a flight sim.  Until now, that has always been a closely guarded secret.

 

There is already funding for DCS: WII, so the Kickstarter isn't going to show you what it would take to develop a flight sim from scratch. This is especially true since it's building on an existing engine.

 

For what its worth, I think the last two studios I've worked at have operated on ~$11,000 man months (Canadian). This means that when everything's averaged out, it costs the company ~$11,000 per month per employee. I could be wrong, but I'm almost certain that this includes the cost of all associated benefits and the cost of paying for non-team-specific departments (e.g. IT, HR, Facilities Maintenance, Reception and so on). That being the case, a ten man team would cost around $110,000 per month or $1,320,000 per year.

 

The last two teams I've worked on have had "burn rates" of around $1m per month or $12m per year (they've both been ~80 man teams at peak). I've heard anecdotally that Californian studios tend to run at around ~$14,000 man months. I've also heard that the tax breaks that the various Montreal studios receive from the Quebec government mean that they can work to ~$9,000 man months or lower.

 

I can guarantee that Luthier's not going to be asking for anything even close to those numbers for a 12 month development cycle, not least because he won't have 80 people working on the project. Even so, I doubt that he'll be looking at $11,000 man months.

 

I'm certainly fascinated to see how much he does ask for, though.

[Rjel]

Out of idle curiosity, is there a minimum dollar amount a person can contribute through Kickstarter? Say ten bucks as a minimum? I've never done anything along those lines. While this project does sound interesting, I can't see myself giving the equivalent of the premium price of BoS right now, but if it does begin to look like a solid project I could see myself kicking in something.

[Sven]

Yeah DCS ww2 really surprised me. I like the '44 setting, just as much as I like any other ww2 period really. Especially since the Ardenne offensive was in '44 it could make for some really good missions. We'll see jet fighters too, those are going to be tricky kites I figure. I read a book about the Luftwaffe in that timeframe, it's called 'The last year of the Luftwaffe may '44 till may '45', I would recommend it to anyone interested in this particular period. It covers all the aspects: fueling, pilots, airplanes, distribution of the forces, flak, V-weapons, frontlines on all sides and their collapse, political mismanagement and the last big military operations. But also integrated are personal accounts of pilots and commanders in the Luftwaffe.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Sven

[JG27_Chivas]

The combat flight sim genre should imbrace the idea of kickstarter.  Most of us would prefer that the combat flight sim enthusiats developing these sims should make the design decisions rather than the bean counters.

[theOden]

I really don't mind the bean counters.

If going kickstarter and having hundreds of small investors, will that make 6 to 8 years development ok all of a sudden?

If you put in $300, will you be all "fine, go on, I have all time in the world" after 5 years waiting?

I honestly think 1C put in a good share of patience with Dover and looking at the patch mayhem after release I can't blame them for their decision.

It's of course easy to blame someone when it's not my own money at stake.

[Feathered_IV]

That's the main issue for me. I think Kickstarter is a great idea and would happily support a new project by a dedicated developer. However when I hear luthier say, "comfortably do everything we wish to do and have all the time that we need" I know enough to read the subtext and likely implications of that statement. It is enough to give me pause. Do I really want to get on that train again?

[JG4_Sputnik]

@Rijel: there will be a minimum amount of cash you can back, its up to the devs and they will tell you all infos on the kickstarter site.

 

I just cant get it how poeple can be so narrow minded sometimes. Yes, Id like to see may '43 scenario Kursk and a Fw190a4 with exactely my favorite paintsheme and an officers hat with black boots too, but the reality is that I wont get it unless projects like DCS WWll are getting pulled off and then in the long term maaaaaybe i'll be able to fly exactely my favourite plane.

 

You invest in a genre, not in a single game.

[theOden]

"Narrow minded", really?

[Bearcat]

@Rijel: there will be a minimum amount of cash you can back, its up to the devs and they will tell you all infos on the kickstarter site.

I just cant get it how poeple can be so narrow minded sometimes. Yes, Id like to see may '43 scenario Kursk and a Fw190a4 with exactely my favorite paintsheme and an officers hat with black boots too, but the reality is that I wont get it unless projects like DCS WWll are getting pulled off and then in the long term maaaaaybe i'll be able to fly exactely my favourite plane.

You invest in a genre, not in a single game.

  

"Narrow minded", really?

I was thinking the same thing. I don't think it is narrowminded at all. I think that is the wrong adjective in this case all things considered. I hope this project succeeds but for me to drop anything more than I would contribute to Hyperlobby or M4T in a year's time, or more than I spent on CoD I would need to see more than I have. I ordered Premium with Bos because I was shown enough to convince me I will get a return on my money, not just paying for an idea and a bunch of promises like with WoP. I also have no intention to buy yet another product that i will not fly which is why I do not own A-10 or FC3 or any of the other DCS offerings aside from BS, which I do own but never fly. WWII is my thing so kicking in for this project is a no brainer but I don't have money to give away to game developers. I give to my church and the poor... otherwise I want something in return that for me is worth my hard earned money. Where I donate outside of the above mentioned cases I get that.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

I gotta say, I'm on the fence. And unlike a lot of others its because of Ilya. He had 2 years to fix clod. Thats a lot of time to get the game In working order. When Loft was brought over to fix clod enough to get it to a playable state he had much less time. In fact the only reason its even in its state that its in now where TF could even have a chance to make it better is due to 777's lead designer.

 

I get that Ilya isn't being pressured to release a product by x date this time around, But if he couldn't manage to do in 2 years, what Loft did in much less time. I just don't know if my money is going to a decent project.

 

I'm not saying no but I'm not sold just yet. I'm open to having my mind changed though. Only time and some development updates will tell.

[theOden]

Absolutely Hooves, if Luthier can pull it off I'll gladly pay the bill but history still has those blinging Banjo tones in my head so I'll stay cold until a fair time have ellapsed since his release.

(actually, having such a hard time in DCS P-51 landing with no shocks - must be! - I'm not sure I'll go for it if all 1944 planes behave the same).

BoS I preordered within 2 minutes I saw the notification - and I don't even like RoF despite multiple attempts over the years.

Why? that's a discussion outside this topic (but speed diff from F-16C to a spad13 is a hint ).

[=CHN=Crash]

That's the main issue for me. I think Kickstarter is a great idea and would happily support a new project by a dedicated developer. However when I hear luthier say, "comfortably do everything we wish to do and have all the time that we need" I know enough to read the subtext and likely implications of that statement. It is enough to give me pause. Do I really want to get on that train again?

No one is forcing you. 

[theOden]

No one is forcing you. 

 

Thank you for clearing that up.

[ST_ami7b5]

No one is forcing you. 

 

No one is forcing anybody, LOL.

Let's wait and see for ourselves.

 

BoS has shown me some nice work already and that's the reason I've ordered the Premium Edition.

I'll wait what Luthier has to offer and then act accordingly.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Rinzai

[[DCS]Unforgiven]

Those are fair comments (well not sure why you are having issues landing the P-51D, but everything else is) If I told myself when CloD released in NA that I would be investing in his new project I would have laughed... but right now, knowing what I know from what he has said and what ED is as a company, and that alot of the stuff will run through their quality control, as Luthier stated, FM will be checked by Yo-Yo for example. So while I still have trust issues, I want this to be good, just like I want BoS to be good...

 

So to end this rambling, do what is comfortable to you, thats all anyone can ask, but lets all hope for a strong Flight Sim community at the end of the tunnel We all want the same things... mostly.

Absolutely Hooves, if Luthier can pull it off I'll gladly pay the bill but history still has those blinging Banjo tones in my head so I'll stay cold until a fair time have ellapsed since his release.

(actually, having such a hard time in DCS P-51 landing with no shocks - must be! - I'm not sure I'll go for it if all 1944 planes behave the same).

BoS I preordered within 2 minutes I saw the notification - and I don't even like RoF despite multiple attempts over the years.

Why? that's a discussion outside this topic (but speed diff from F-16C to a spad13 is a hint ).

[JG4_Sputnik]

I was thinking the same thing. I don't think it is narrowminded at all. I think that is the wrong adjective in this case all things considered. I hope this project succeeds but for me to drop anything more than I would contribute to Hyperlobby or M4T in a year's time, or more than I spent on CoD I would need to see more than I have. I ordered Premium with Bos because I was shown enough to convince me I will get a return on my money, not just paying for an idea and a bunch of promises like with WoP. I also have no intention to buy yet another product that i will not fly which is why I do not own A-10 or FC3 or any of the other DCS offerings aside from BS, which I do own but never fly. WWII is my thing so kicking in for this project is a no brainer but I don't have money to give away to game developers. I give to my church and the poor... otherwise I want something in return that for me is worth my hard earned money. Where I donate outside of the above mentioned cases I get that.

Well Im not sure but I think that you have to till the whole field to see your unique plant grow.

DCS for me is part of a small sim genre and if developers around the world see that others are interested in ww2 sims too and the project gets backed, then maybe we will se Malta and stufff later on. if you only think in a small space I call that narrow minded (maybe its a too strong term I cant really tell since english isnt my first language). No strong feelings though.

[Tektolnes]

actually, having such a hard time in DCS P-51 landing with no shocks - must be! - I'm not sure I'll go for it if all 1944 planes behave the same

109 will be even tougher to land. With the P51 you're just getting a more realistic landing experience compared to other combat flight sims before which were ludicrously forgiving when it came to landing and ground handling in general. With practice it's not too hard to land the P51 once you follow the book for landing.

[Trooper117]

I'll fly both games for sure... there is always room for more WWII flight sim games.

[[DCS]Unforgiven]

Kickstarter is up...

 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Kickstarter is up...

 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944

 

And Oleg is in...yes i said Oleg.

[[DCS]Unforgiven]

Early WIP of map and ED's new terrain engine...

 

 

 

[theOden]

I don't get the feeling Oleg is "in" but more of a "name" to promote the game/module (he looks a little uncomfortable, or is it just me?).

That said, to me the whole announcement and the kickstarter is spoken by a "salesperson" and not a "developer" - sort of "buy my car, you need it" style. But I guess that's Ilya-way.

[[DCS]Unforgiven]

Thats a confusing statement, of course he is trying to "sell it", he is his own producer now... he has only himself to sell his product.... he needs to be more than a developer now... Do statements from any other developer not come across the same???

I don't get the feeling Oleg is "in" but more of a "name" to promote the game/module (he looks a little uncomfortable, or is it just me?).

That said, to me the whole announcement and the kickstarter is spoken by a "salesperson" and not a "developer" - sort of "buy my car, you need it" style. But I guess that's Ilya-way.

[Freycinet]

Ok, I pledged 112 dollars: good luck to the team! - It can only be good for flight simming to have TWO hi-fidelity WWII flight sims slugging it out!

 

[JG4_Sputnik]

Thats a confusing statement, of course he is trying to "sell it", he is his own producer now... he has only himself to sell his product.... he needs to be more than a developer now... Do statements from any other developer not come across the same???

Same here. What else is he supposed to do than trying to sell his product??

[JGzbV_Manni]

maybe develop it first to a point where he can show at least a few screens?

not one cent...

[[DCS]Unforgiven]

Look at the kickstarter, he has a few screenshots, some of which I included here...

maybe develop it first to a point where he can show at least a few screens?
not one cent...

[BFsSmurfy]

You don`t lose anything if it goes a bollock, they don`t take the money unless the target is reached is my understanding. I wonder future BoS theatres will be funded in this way?

[JGzbV_Manni]

really? we had several of those in Clod and i would say they were several times more detailed.

Lets see... we have some screens of P51 which was released last year. Then a d9 which is in development for few months already by another team.

Then some landscape in a shady light which shows you nothing. And some landscape where one part is a photo and the other part seems like something i can scetch in paint.

 

So what do we get in the end?

A Sim that has 5 planes with some higher res. textures and worse landscape and plus clickpits and super detailed modelled radio systems... (where is the rolling eyes smiley?). A missing multiplayer part - which is out of schedule, because its unpredictable....

Edited September 5, 2013 by JGzbV_Manni

[Freycinet]

Manni, we get it, you don't want to suppport a new flight sim. The world needs dreamers and doers, you know? - Not just cynical glass-half-empty people.