Discussion about DCS:WW2 goes here.

[gavagai]

MP I like the video .. I just take umbrage with one part....

 

The line .. "The next generation of combat flight simulation .. waits to take to the skies.... "

 

 

It is marketing-speak.  Instead of delivering factual information we place our greatest faith in bamboozling the public with spectacle and cliches.  This is what some think other people want and need to see.

[JG27_Chivas]

I doubt that anybody will think BOS will be chopped liver.   "The next generation flight sim" is just a catch phrase every developer will use to describe their product.   I think BOS, COD, DCS WW2 will each do something better than the other, but overall about the same quality.   People will fly all three, and some will gravitate to the one that has the theater, year, and aircraft he likes to fly most, and others will gravitate to the one that best suits there sense of a good combat flight sim.   Everyone's will have a different take on what that is.   What is most important is that most here have/will support all three.

[Mysticpuma]

Hi BC. No problem, each to their own opinion. As you said, there is nothing meant by it, but it's a promo. trailer and you wouldn't expect a line to say " almost the next generation flight sim after others as-well that are in development and may be better than this but time will tell so enjoy what you see but don't forget their are other Sims and we don't want to upset anyone by claiming this is the only one after all the is just a trailer t promote our Sim and shouldn't forget there are others who may be upset if we don't mention them" ?

 

That just doesn't flow

 

Take it for what it is. An advert to tell people that a new Simulation may make it to fruition, but only if the Kickstarter succeeds.

 

It's not knocking anyone else, it's just a promotion of a possible new addition to the Waw2 flight sim genre. I'm sure I could do the same for BoS when their software is released, but currently, that isn't an option.

 

Freycinet, very much appreciate what you did, that's a great effort and superb way to support this project.

 

Cheers, MP

[JG27_Chivas]

DCS WW2 developers have their own investment monies, and with a little more support from the community it should easily reach the $100,000+ in kickstarter monies to developed the sim over the next year.   They'll be on a shoestring budget like every other combat flight sim, and their success will depend on the quality of their work, just as it should be.  The good news is, the hardest part is already done, with the existing game engine, and graphic engine.   Its just requires WW2 content, its a lot of work, but far less time consuming than starting from scratch.  

[Rjel]

I'm still riding the fence on this. I'm enjoying the DCS Mustang, using it to learn CEM and a more advanced flight model than I've used before (excepting CLoD). Besides the fact the P-51 has always been my favorite fighter plane, it seems like a good tool to train on until BoS arrives. I know it's apple and oranges comparing the two, but I suspect some of it will help me in transitioning to BoS. All I want from either sim is a good feeling of flight and a solid base for the future builds. Whichever one delivers best will get the majority of my flight time and money. I'm hoping both succeed but my gut tells me to expect more from 777 in the future. I want a great ETO sim as that is my main interest. Time will tell on that one.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Rjel

[Feathered_IV]

I'm thinking I'll give it a miss. It does not appear to be as well thought out as such a complex project demands, and I do not want to see the genre getting a reputation for failure. At this most critical time when it is so important to impress potential backers with their professionalism and vision, we are seeing the familiar apologies and excuses that we have come to recognise over the years. We ran out of time, we didn't know...

 

I will very gladly back a WW2 project for DCS by a determined and well managed team. If the developer can learn some real management skills. Take a course perhaps, really nut out the particulars of the project and its purchasing model and then come back with a fresh presentation in a year or so - I would back it to the hilt. In the long run however, I think it would be of greater service for me not to lend my support at this time.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Feathered_IV

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

I'm thinking I'll give it a miss. It does not appear to be as well thought out as such a complex project demands, and I do not want to see the genre getting a reputation for failure. At this most critical time when it is so important to impress potential backers with their professionalism and vision, we are seeing the familiar apologies and excuses that we have come to recognise over the years. We ran out of time, we didn't know...

 

I will very gladly back a WW2 project for DCS by a determined and well managed team. If the developer can learn some real management skills. Take a course perhaps, really nut out the particulars of the project and its purchasing model and then come back with a fresh presentation in a year or so - I would back it to the hilt. In the long run however, I think it would be of greater service for me not to lend my support at this time.

well I think were see that style right now with BOS?

[Stig]

 I want a great ETO sim as that is my main interest. Time will tell on that one.

 

Is riding the fence going get you one? If the KS doesn't reach the base goal, I think there's a fair chance Ilya's backers will pull the plug on this project. Other potential developers (and there arn't many) will be loooking at this and thinking 'the community calls for US planes and Western theatres, that's where the market is. Is it really?'. 

So the end result may well be that if we get US planes, they'll be wearing red stars and flying over the steppes.

[Dakpilot]

This was a brilliant opportunity to retrieve a slightly tarnished reputation, however unjust due to circumstances beyond their control, however this kickstarter project has anything but professional management . I can easily forgive the less than quality videos, for the enthusiasm shown but then to go awol for 5 days leaving massive speculation and unanswered questions all over the internet in the middle of the launch is unforgivable and bordering on stupidity, the unconfirmed reason from a Russian forum of divorce and moving house does not give confidence in thoughtful planning. If this is the reason I have full sympathy, but  surely a situation like that does not happen without some forewarning of launch date planning.

A WWII sim based on DCS world seems like a wonderfull idea and easily achieved, but there are easily answered questions that have been left hanging, people say the graphic engine already exists and is proven but that is far from the truth I have tried to find out more info on the EDGE system but apart from interesting, but pre alpha shots of Normandy and a few screens of a long awaited and delayed Nevada map there is nothing, (that I have found) the three commercial sims that use it are unnamed, and cloaked in mystery, a very nice vid of Corsica is said to use it, but this is from 2012 and looks to be made by MetaVR image engine http://www.metavr.com/recentnews/news.html and that Vid is said not to be running on desktop computer. Some info on this would give much good publicity if true.

It is said the team have made the cockpit for the DCS FW190D surely some pics of WIP would be beneficial to RGS kickstarter and DCS as well,l so why not show something? I really want this to succeed and would gladly back it but there is so much not being shown, that the claim of being experts at interacting with their fans becomes laughable.

There are two weeks for them to pull their finger out and show they have the wherewithal to pull this off, I truly hope that they do, the ball is in their court  

 

Cheers Dakpilot  

[FlatSpinMan]

I hadn't gotten around to putting my money down before - waiting for payday for my 'pocket money' - but now, I really don't know. The points in the last few posts are pretty fair, to my way of thinking. I'll have to think a bit more. Still leaning towards it though.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

 If the KS doesn't reach the base goal, I think there's a fair chance Ilya's backers will pull the plug on this project.

???? The kick starter is in it's best position since it began, they've got 15 days an only need to get another $11,560. That's only $771.00 a day. I can't remember it ever being that low!

 

I have read a few post by some people that were threatening they were going to reduce or withdrawal their pledges at the last moment, but you know they were always going to do that and to me it sounds quite petty and I honestly doubt it will have too much effect on the final numbers!

 

When it all comes down to it having a robust competition is a win/win situation for all the sims. Developers get to show their best when they are under a bit of pressure. It drives the whole genre forward!

Edited September 20, 2013 by Skoshi_Tiger

[Dakpilot]

Having robust competition is indeed a win win, who would not want a WWII study sim to DCS P-51 Mustang levels with better graphics/immersion, but another debacle of failed promises is only going to do harm to this genre

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[PA-Sniv]

The 100.000$ goal will be reached, no doubt about it. But will the KS campaign be a success? No.

 

I really want to support the sim genre, but so far I have no confidence in this project.

 

A best, in one year time, we'll get a bugged free demo with 3 flyable, on a 100x160km map (nearly as small as Ace Expansion Pack Normandy). Those 3 flyable will not be modelled as precisly as DCS:P51 and we have no certitude that DCS net code will be optimized for MP.

 

I do think, as many other players, that this KS campaign was not well prepared: bad communication, unrealistic stretch goals, no preview of actual developpment, ...

 

I am disappointed...

Edited September 20, 2013 by PA-Sniv

[Stig]

???? The kick starter is in it's best position since it began, they've got 15 days an only need to get another $11,560. That's only $771.00 a day. I can't remember it ever being that low!

 

I have read a few post by some people that were threatening they were going to reduce or withdrawal their pledges at the last moment, but you know they were always going to do that and to me it sounds quite petty and I honestly doubt it will have too much effect on the final numbers!

 

When it all comes down to it having a robust competition is a win/win situation for all the sims. Developers get to show their best when they are under a bit of pressure. It drives the whole genre forward!

 

I agree with you fully Skoshi. I do think that the KS will get over the base goal line. My point was rather that, sitting on the fence and yearning for an ETO sim with P51 might not be enough to get you one, if too many adopt that approach, ar any rate. It' s not just about the amount of money the KS generates, it's also the number of backers to signal that there is a market for it.

[Mac_Messer]

MP I like the video .. I just take umbrage with one part....

 

The line .. "The next generation of combat flight simulation .. waits to take to the skies.... "

 

The next generation of combat flight simulation will be on over 2000 hard drives very soon... and Niel you know where I am coming from.. I got nothing but respect for you and your work .. but it seems to me that with the announcement of the DCS KS .. a lot of people are acting like IL2 BoS is chopped liver... as if now that Oleg and Ilya may be back in the business everything else .. not to mention the last 10 months.. is rumor and innuendo.

 

That is not the case...  and I know you mean nothing by it.. and I don't want to turn this into the usual my balls are bigger than the other guys' kind of thing that it often degenerates to .. but it just kind of kills me how so many folks act like BoS is chopped liver.. just another flight sim coming out or that it will somehow be a welcome step up from War Thunder.. but the real sim will be out with DCS... .. now that the great and all powerful Oleg & Ilya team is back in the game.. I tell ya what.. when/if this thing does come out.. it will have it's space for sure and I hope like hell it succeeds because I have already dropped slightly less than I did for the BoS pre order into it.. because I am a flight sim junkie  .. and as I have often said.. WWII sims are my thing ...  my flight sim crack... but it will not be the only big dog on the track.. and it may not be the biggest dog .. so I am glad that good things loom in the WWII flight sim market... but let's not get it twisted here what is going on.. and as I said... the next generation of combat flight simulation will be starting .... in a matter of weeks.

 

Be sure.

Heeeeere we go again.

 

Not really chopped liver. In my opinion people are just being realistic. BoS will not be what IL2 was, at the release day. It will probably take a few years to get there and ppl know it.

 

And the next generation of combat flight simulation started in 2010 if I`m not mistaking : Cliffs of Dover.

[ST_ami7b5]

Heeeeere we go again.

 

Not really chopped liver. In my opinion people are just being realistic. BoS will not be what IL2 was, at the release day. It will probably take a few years to get there and ppl know it.

 

And the next generation of combat flight simulation started in 2010 if I`m not mistaking : Cliffs of Dover.

 

Says WHO?

And who are those ppl? You?

[Bearcat]

I hadn't gotten around to putting my money down before - waiting for payday for my 'pocket money' - but now, I really don't know. The points in the last few posts are pretty fair, to my way of thinking. I'll have to think a bit more. Still leaning towards it though.

Yeah that was my thinking too but then I said what the hey.. since if the KS goals are not met no monies are taken.. and if they are met the the project will get more wind beneath it's wings I decided to go for it.. I believe that is the goals are met then the project will not flounder.. we will see.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Every little helps.

 

If you love flight sims then back this project, even if it's only $10 or $20. Be prepared to lose it, but I doubt there is anyone who can honestly say they they haven't pony'd up the same or more on the vague promise of less ( Drinks ladies ?).

 

So even if you're doubful, of the game or the developer, but love flight sims, then put Your money were your hobbie is and take a punt, for better or worse. The worst that can happen is you lose a few dollars worth of beer money, the best is some great study sim quality aircraft and several months or years of entertainment.

 

That sounds like a bargain to me.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Thinking out loud.

 

Stretch goals should be voted for. (Didn't really think about that just came off the top of my head)

 

I think the next aircraft after the initial kick starter should actually be a Mig 15 and a Sabre. I don't think anyone really gives a flying fig about the map once you get several feet of the ground, Georgia would do fine as a sub for Korea. Not only would it appeal to Westerers but also Russians and CHINESE, a big potential market that hasn't been touched. It's also an area in need of some love, not really seen since the likes of Mig Alley. If the aircraft sell well then a dedicated map might even follow.

[BFsSmurfy]

"And the next generation of combat flight simulation started in 2010 if I`m not mistaking : Cliffs of Dover

 

I think that was April 2011 wasn`t it? damn shame that went down the pan till TF took the bull by the horns, most beautiful pits and planes to date imo.

Edited September 20, 2013 by BFsSmurfy

[ST_ami7b5]

Little off-topic:

big sale on DCS these days...

 

So those who don't have P-51 yet may grab it now for $15.99 instead of $39.99.

http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/

Edited September 20, 2013 by ami7b5

[Tektolnes]

I guess one other thing to consider for those on the fence is that the advertisement in the KS states that there'll be 3 free flyables so that offer is guaranteed for all pledgers. There's nothing stopping RRG changing their minds on this approach for all non-pledgers. They could drop down to 1 free flyable and it would still be a decent offer. Not saying this will happen but a lot can change between a KS and defining the official launch package for non-pledgers next year.

[nirvi]

I think the next aircraft after the initial kick starter should actually be a Mig 15 and a Sabre. I don't think anyone really gives a flying fig about the map once you get several feet of the ground, Georgia would do fine as a sub for Korea. Not only would it appeal to Westerers but also Russians and CHINESE, a big potential market that hasn't been touched. It's also an area in need of some love, not really seen since the likes of Mig Alley. If the aircraft sell well then a dedicated map might even follow.

 

The next module from Belsimtek after the Mi-8 will already be the F86 Sabre.

[Kaenzdhi]

BoS will not be what IL2 was, at the release day.

You are right. BOS will be much better

[FlatSpinMan]

Those are all good points about why to support it. I mean, support or not aside,  I really hope it does succeed. Luthier seems so genuine in what he wants to do.

[FlatSpinMan]

Hey guys

I was just checking the pledge options out at DCS WW2. I'm confused - there are three levels at $100 plus another at $110. I recall reading that some of the older ones he'd prefer weren't used. Does anyone have any knowledge on which one to choose?

 

1. $100 +
   Add $12 USD to ship outside the US

   Everything at the $40 level, plus a hard copy of the game’s air combat strategy and tactics manual, and spiral-bound copies of complete aircraft manuals for two flyable aircraft in the game.

   Limited (2 of 143 remaining)

   Estimated delivery: Sep 2014

2. $100 +
   Add $12 USD to ship outside the US

   Everything at the $50 level, plus a hard copy of the game’s air combat strategy and tactics manual, and a spiral-bound copy of complete aircraft manuals for one flyable aircraft in the game.

   Estimated delivery: Sep 2014

3. $100 +
   Add $12 USD to ship outside the US

   DCS World Tier 3. Everything at the $50 level, plus a digital copy of DCS World FW-190D-9 with beta access (when available in early 2014), and a digital copy of DCS World P-51D Mustang (on successful kickstarter completion).

   Estimated delivery: Feb 2014

4. $110 +
   Add $12 USD to ship outside the US

   ALPHA Tier 4. Everything at the $50 ORIGINAL level, plus a digital copy of DCS World FW-190D-9 with beta access (when available in early ... view more

   Estimated delivery: Feb 2014

[Tektolnes]

Personally I think either 3 or 4 given that you get the FW-190 in DCS World immediately when that goes into beta and a copy of the P51for use in DCS World immediately once the KS is successful.

[FlatSpinMan]

Oh I see that, but I was just wondering, are there any older pledges that they would prefer us not to use? I recall reading something to that effect recently.

[royraiden]

Oh I see that, but I was just wondering, are there any older pledges that they would prefer us not to use? I recall reading something to that effect recently.

This could help you http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=113980

[Bearcat]

Yeah.. 89.3% of goal with 15 days left.. I think they will make it.

[Tektolnes]

Oh I see that, but I was just wondering, are there any older pledges that they would prefer us not to use? I recall reading something to that effect recently.

Ah got you. Was #1. He made them limited after making the amendments so new pledgers couldn't use them (unless original backers changed to something else).

[JG27_Chivas]

Unprofessional?  I could care less how unprofessional a group of combat flight sim enthusiasts are if they create sims like IL-2 1946, and the highly complex COD game engine, which TF will soon exonerate.    The latest BOS update showing the amazingly complex FM makes me wonder how computers can even keep up.   What it costs us to support them is quite frankly a joke, for most of us.   I'm looking forward to a new era of combat flight simming with BOS, COD, and DCS WW2.  The Occulus Rift also looks like a new piece of hardware which could also add considerable immersion to our genre.  Its all good.  Don't sweat the "what ifs".

[Rjel]

Is riding the fence going get you one? If the KS doesn't reach the base goal, I think there's a fair chance Ilya's backers will pull the plug on this project. Other potential developers (and there arn't many) will be loooking at this and thinking 'the community calls for US planes and Western theatres, that's where the market is. Is it really?'. 

So the end result may well be that if we get US planes, they'll be wearing red stars and flying over the steppes.

All I can do is go with how I feel. I'm for supporting any product I believe in. Yeah 40 bucks won't kill me either but that isn't the point in my mind. I just don't get a good feel for this product. If I'm wrong I'll be the first to say so. I'm not going to sit here and try to talk others out of chipping in. I'm just going to pass this time around.

[LukeFF]

And the next generation of combat flight simulation started in 2010 if I`m not mistaking : Cliffs of Dover.

 

Isn't that the title that's no longer being officially developed?

[LukeFF]

This is the sort of stuff that sends up red flags to me about Ilya's management abilities: 

 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/posts/605176

 

As the kickstarter got started we realized it was all wrong, since we were doing something for people new to flight sims, expecting an influx of people who have never flown a plane in their life. Now that we've realized that this project can only succeed if we work with the dedicated flight sim fans, we're redoing and scrapping everything to give you guys what you need.

 

C'mon, really? You mean to tell me he didn't think about that stuff before launching this whole project? Yes, bringing in new players is very important, but trying to develop a new title without meaningful input from people already familiar with flight sims is asking for failure.

[DD_bongodriver]

Is it only me that senses the irony of BOS being lauded as the second coming of IL2 while everything that the actual creators of the original try to do is kicked in the face?

[Skoshi_Tiger]

I doubt that the DCS WWII will look, or more importantly feel, anything like Cliffs of Dover or any other sim out there at the moment.  Like any of the other DCS Titles, game play will be determined by procedure management.

 

Just keeping planes within the correct parameters will have a major influence of players styles. It may actually be hard for some gamers to make the shift. Will people like it? For me it's at least worth giving it a go. 

 

Not making the stretch goals  may have the benefit of ensuring that any future updates will be based on the merits of the base sim, not on pre-development wish lists. Additional aircraft  to be added will not be set in stone and their delivery may be more flexible.

 

Good update today by the way.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Skoshi_Tiger

[Freycinet]

People who ask for super-polished presentations and a professional demeanor as well as Hollywood-quality preview movies churned out every three days just don't have a realistic view of hi-fidelity flight sim development. Did you notice that even Microsoft, with all their billions, pulled the plug on "Flight"? Do you think flight sims rake in the dough like GTA V? - Come on!

 

The nutjobs making hi-fidelity flight sims are nerds with a love of flight and simming who are trying to get projuects up and running with shoestring budgets. They have no guarantee of anything like a good income or financial stability. Their main reward is to give wings to all the dreamers who want to be WWII aces in the virtual world.

 

Pls don't expect super-polished efforts from them... Give them a bit of slack and understanding, and try not to hold them to standards that are just unrealistic.  

[Mac_Messer]

Is it only me that senses the irony of BOS being lauded as the second coming of IL2 while everything that the actual creators of the original try to do is kicked in the face?

Well it is called IL2 Sturmovik BOS for the obvous reason.

[FuriousMeow]

The kickstarter itself is already bringing back bad memories. Changing goals midway through the kickstarter, misjudging their target audience, and premature demos using the previous engine that won't be the release engine and planes already created on the current engine. That's, wow, that's exactly like the CoD talk up,  and development, summed up in less than 30 days.

Edited September 20, 2013 by FuriousMeow