Ju-87 in-flight behaviour

[SYN_Ricky]

I was playing on SYN server last night and after a few flights in an Il-2 I decide to take a Ju-87 for a change, I hadn'z flown one for quite some time now. I took a full fuel load and a single 500kg bomb plus two underwing 250kg.

After take-off I was quite surprised to how the thing flew: the ball seemed to be always all over the place, bouncing from left to right as if I was in heavy turbulences, Also the plane keeps on wanting to roll right very strongly. I was able to have it stable a couple of times, but as soon as I touched the elevator its started rolling hard right again.

It seems I couldn't trim the plane in any way.

Anyone having the same problem?

I don't see that in others planes, except the 109 (especially G2) where at certains speeds it also wants to roll hard right.

My controls seem ok, checked in their respective soft and in the controls interface. Should I reset all trims before takeoff?

[IRRE_Belmont]

It DOES have a tendency to roll right by itself sometimes,

The problems you are talking about might also be caused by the wind 

[SYN_Ricky]

It DOES have a tendency to roll right by itself sometimes,

The problems you are talking about might also be caused by the wind 

 

True I didn't check the weather conditions, but on other planes on the same mission I didn't see the ball jump that much. I should try in the QMB with no wind and no turbulences to see how it goes

[Lusekofte]

The best game physics I ever experienced almost hide the fact that most light fighters and the Stuka got a light kite feel to it. I am only guessing, but can it be a trace from ROF.

Let say the models are too light weighted and respond to the wind like a WW1 kite would.

Mind you, I am only asking, because you can do weird things with the 109 witch tells me it got some WW1 pedigree into the conduct of the planes

[39bn_pavig]

I find stability on the IL and Stuka are very dependent on trim and power tuning. At the right settings they are very stable and not effected by the wind, but when poorly tuned (too low rpm, too nose up, too slow, flaps) they become easily buffeted by turbulence. Both can fly very slow when required, but unless treated with respect become quite unstable by doing so.

 

Recent updates changed the default settings for trim as well, and I have found doing a "reset trim" once in the air after takeoff is good practice to zero the controls before tweaking.

Edited October 24, 2014 by 39bn_pavig

[Finkeren]

You don't really learn to appreciate the importance of proper trimming until you've tried aiming the 37mm guns on the IL-2 when coming in at a shallow angle desperately trying not to lawn dart.

[Requiem]

With that heavy load and drag you may have been departing to the right (I can't recall if the Stuka likes doing this or not), so maybe your airspeed might have been a bit too low when attempting to maneuver?

[BeastyBaiter]

I've noticed the stuka in general likes to fly sideways by a large margin. All prop planes do to some extent, but the stuka is unusually bad about it. 100% right rudder trim is insufficient to correct at most airspeeds.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

It DOES have a tendency to roll right by itself sometimes,

The problems you are talking about might also be caused by the wind 

 

Wind can't roll your plane. If it is like that it is against physical law. Gusts and turbulences could disrupt flight path but they are rather violent and short in action.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Wind can't roll your plane. If it is like that it is against physical law. Gusts and turbulences could disrupt flight path but they are rather violent and short in action.

Sry but this is wrong. Wind can indeed cause roll impulse if coming from side angles. Don't forget planes don't fly 100% level in real live, so side wind will always blow the upper or lower wing surface, thus inducting a roll.

 

It's of course not as heavy effecting you of you fly properly, though still noticably. On the other hand we have pretty strong wind and turbulences on most servers which of course make it feel more flimsy.

I don't want to argue the FM may be bugged though, apparently I hope for some serious improvements on the Stuka FM (not only a "heavier" feel but also proper engine mechanics).

[SKG51_robtek]

Sry but this is wrong. Wind can indeed cause roll impulse if coming from side angles. Don't forget planes don't fly 100% level in real live, so side wind will always blow the upper or lower wing surface, thus inducting a roll.

 

It's of course not as heavy effecting you of you fly properly, though still noticably. On the other hand we have pretty strong wind and turbulences on most servers which of course make it feel more flimsy.

I don't want to argue the FM may be bugged though, apparently I hope for some serious improvements on the Stuka FM (not only a "heavier" feel but also proper engine mechanics).

Sry, but you are wrong here!

a gust can have the effect you are describing, but wind influences all parts at the same time with the same strenght. In flight there is no such thing as a side wind as the plane flies through a body of air and if this body is moving sideways to the line of flight the plane will move with the same speed sideways over the ground.

Hope i could explain it correctly.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Sry, but you are wrong here!

a gust can have the effect you are describing, but wind influences all parts at the same time with the same strenght. In flight there is no such thing as a side wind as the plane flies through a body of air and if this body is moving sideways to the line of flight the plane will move with the same speed sideways over the ground.

Hope i could explain it correctly.

Of course there is sid ewind in flight. Also mind the turbulences (which I'm not sure how they're modeled ingame) which push on the plane from various directions durign flight, no matter from which direction the main wind is heading from.

 

Wind pushing from left side constantly surely has different effect than wind coming from right, no matter of you're on ground or in the air. Also, again, planes don't fly horizontal constantly, there's always a limited ammount of roll or pitch which tends to increase if wind / turbulences blow against the aircraft.

[IIN8II]

The stuka gets unstable at lower speeds with a heavy load. My suggestion would be to take a lot less gas (enough to get to your target and back).

[donkeycods]

A stronger wind on one side of the plane will mean the airflow over that wing is faster, thus producing more lift on that wing, which will induce a roll.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Sry but this is wrong. Wind can indeed cause roll impulse if coming from side angles. Don't forget planes don't fly 100% level in real live, so side wind will always blow the upper or lower wing surface, thus inducting a roll.

 

It's of course not as heavy effecting you of you fly properly, though still noticably. On the other hand we have pretty strong wind and turbulences on most servers which of course make it feel more flimsy.

I don't want to argue the FM may be bugged though, apparently I hope for some serious improvements on the Stuka FM (not only a "heavier" feel but also proper engine mechanics).

 

I have question for you [Jg26]5tuka. Given conditions:  you are flying balloon at altitude 1 Km, you are standing inside open basket, there is wind blowing at 170 km/h from any direction. Question: do you feel chill/rush of air on yours face (similar sensation when you stick out your head from fast moving car) looking in any direction?

[SKG51_robtek]

Excellent example tomcatqw!

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. Anyway go on as long as you like, I take my flight expirience over your satement.

 

After some ground strafing I've to admint the rudder is very sensetive. It feels like that in low % are accurate movements are not possible due to the plane snapping rapidly sideways while this is actually not an issue when going from half to full rudder.

 

So yea FM improvements are moer than welcome

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. Anyway go on as long as you like, I take my flight expirience over your satement.

 

 

What i see is that flight experience doesn't necessarily go with understanding of the physics. I don't say all aspect of it, but the recognition that airplane is inside moving air mass with all it consequences.

Excellent example tomcatqw!

Thank you

[Y-29.Silky]

Besides the FM mentions above, the SYN server is very windy. Even though the clouds don't move.

[indiaciki]

the Stuka is a very easy aircraft to fly by all means if you take care of the engine. Bombs and high load... differtent ballgame. In windy conitions... I crashed mine with cannons on wings. Load is a big factor.

[silent_one]

tomcatqw regarding your balloon. If you face the wind, unless your in some totally inertia less perfect balloon you will feel some wind. Since there is turbulence and fluctuations in wind ( fluid )you cant expect the balloon to be flying magically at the same speed as the wind. It will attempt to, but as it is inefficient in capturing the wind energy it cannot attain the same speed. Since you want to make an argument based on physics. You need to take into account forces like friction, inertia and fluid dynamics.You need to have a more complex model .  Your argument is like the intuitive argument that a wind powered vehicle cant  go faster than the wind.  Its possible but requires a more complex explanation . Your argument that an object in a fluid must be at the same speed as the moving fluid. That just doesn't hold. 

Edited October 25, 2014 by silent_one

[69th_chuter]

I've ridden balloons in light winds and once airborne didn't feel any wind at all, but that's just my personal experience.  It sounds to me like one side of the argument is talking about a moving air mass and the other side is talking about gusts relative to the aircraft and both sides are referring to this as wind. 

 

My understanding of the Stuka is that it was a decidedly stable aircraft with ailerons that, though large, "failed to instill any liveliness into evasive maneuvers, and although its elevators were reasonably light the aircraft was just too stable longitudinally to be very maneuverable" (Capt. Eric Brown).  And while Brown doesn't specifically mention directional stability he said that taxing in a crosswind was very difficult, an indication, partly, of the relative size of the fin which infers a higher degree of directional stability in flight.  (He also says it was easy to nose over, unlike most German planes.  And it had fragile landing gear ...   )

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I've ridden balloons in light winds and once airborne didn't feel any wind at all, but that's just my personal experience. It sounds to me like one side of the argument is talking about a moving air mass and the other side is talking about gusts relative to the aircraft and both sides are referring to this

Argument was about that wind, no gust or turbulences can roll airplane.

[Finkeren]

I think Stuka is talking about gusts at low alt. I think you're talking past one another.

[[TWB]Outlaw-]

Prop planes will generally have a tendency to roll. Sometimes it can be a gust of wind but mostly it's due to the torque or some aerodynamic effect is occurring. Just use your aileron trim. I find the planes to behave very realistically.