How To IL-2, Not War Thunder

[Y-29.Silky]

Part 1: The Honor System + Reward System

This is an extremely futile attempt

Story:
I was bombing Grishin airfield in the Syndicate server in my He-111. A Yak jumped me and shot out my starboard engine and damaged my port engine. I thought I could maybe ride her home through the clouds, but soon noticed my only option was to make an emergency landing at Grishin. What happens next, is two more Yaks join in on strafing me for roughly 2 minutes.

0) I was shot to shit.

1) Both engines are dead.
2) Navigation lights are on to signal that I'm "going in" (You got me!)

3) My landing gear is down.
4) I shoot flares in a desperate call for mercy.

5) I become fertilizer for Soviet Potatoes.

No sound (starboard props are off, never seen that before )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZZj1f7MGzs

Lesson:

• What newcomers should understand..

Was that the 1st Yak received credit for the kill even before I started recording. In 2 (maybe 3) passes, he took out my starboard engine, and damaged my port which was still running, but didn't have the juice to make it far; he could have quit right there, saved ammo, and moved on. Even if I was able to land at Grishin, he still would have received credit. The 2 Yaks who jumped in did nothing but waste ammo, had complete tunnel vision on an aircraft that was already combat ineffective, never thought of top cover, and were lucky there were no 109's around. Even if one was the one who ripped me in half, he did not receive credit for the kill, the original Yak did.

 

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What happened to me in the video has become the norm over the past 2 months with a new wave of players who think they have to completely annihilate an aircraft to get the kill. It really does destroy the experience and immersion. Especially for a majority here, if the pilot dies, a piece of the player dies with him.

 

I'm not complaining that I got shot down, it was actually very fun being shot down (besides the ending of course, and where else besides IL-2 can you say you had fun being shot down?), trying to save the crew, and being forced to attempt an emergency landing at an enemy airfield. Yak gets credit, I am taken POW.. win-win, this is priceless fun!

 

tl;dr - A damaged aircraft with navigation lights on usually means he's going down for a crash landing. You don't have to drive them into the ground and make them explode like it's a Michael Bay movie, especially when you're not the one who damaged him in the first place. Leave the unnecessary over-kills for War Thunder.
 

Edited October 23, 2014 by Silky

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

It happens all the time in ROF, TFcliffs..and any other game you can name. Some just can't see you're done for until you blow up. So they keep pumping you full of lead. If I get a kill message in a game I stop shooting, its a waste of ammo. 

[GP*]

Are you kidding?

 

A crash landing as you attempt to fly back to your own lines is one thing.

 

Trying to land at the very same airfield you were just bombing? That warrants you getting shot at until you're a smoking hole in the ground.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Gear down in flight is a signal of surrender. People should cease fire.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Are you kidding?

 

A crash landing as you attempt to fly back to your own lines is one thing.

 

Trying to land at the very same airfield you were just bombing? That warrants you getting shot at until you're a smoking hole in the ground.

Until angry farmers with pitchforks and the local militia are modeled. Then it will get really interesting.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

He was already shot down, even if he was going to land anywhere the Yak would get the kill. No need to hit the dead plane again. And yes lights on, gear down is a "you got me" signal. Cease fire and enjoy your kill.

Until angry farmers with pitchforks and the local militia are modeled. Then it will get really interesting.

I'd like to see that! 

[Requiem]

Counter-lesson: If you are still being attacked after your engines go out, dive straight down for the deck and do a forced landing. Your plane is considered disabled and you won't get any result better than a "emergency landing," so forget the landing gear....dive down to the deck and drag a wing on the snow to bring yourself to a full stop as soon as possible so you can finish flight. You will be more likely to survive that way, especially considering you were flying a He-111. Floating along towards the airfield like that while knowing people are still pressing the attack on you will result in your death most of the time.

 

The easier option was to simply bail out.

 

This behaviour happens a lot, but at least you were still in the air when it was going on Today I was in a Pe-2 and ended up with three 109's on me after they took out a mate nearby in a Pe-2. The hit me badly so I had to crash land, and while I sat on the snow they kept attempting to strafe. A bit of a waste of ammo on their part, but they probably thought they would only get a kill if I blew up or whatever. Even so, I much prefer that behaviour compared to seeing the kill messages on a server that would tell them when they got the kill.

 

The sooner you get down on the deck once you are disabled, the less likely it is you will encounter this behaviour and be pissed off by people that fly this way

[RydnDirty]

yeah Requiem said it.

 

Chop throttle and dive or pull a tight spiral down to the ground and ditch.

 

It seems to be the new players with no score and they just wanna get a kill anyway they can. They don't realise the kill is already gone. You can tell them now but next week there will be another bunch of new guys who don't know...

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

yeah Requiem said it.

 

Chop throttle and dive or pull a tight spiral down to the ground and ditch.

 

It seems to be the new players with no score and they just wanna get a kill anyway they can. They don't realise the kill is already gone. You can tell them now but next week there will be another bunch of new guys who don't know...

True.

[Bearcat]

Look the same thing happens in other sims.. Part of this is the "gamer" mentality. A simmer would have said.. "Thius guy is in I am going for fresh meat or saving my ammo in case I have to fight my way home.." a gamer will say "POINTS POINTS POINTS!! " ... This was one of the things that turned me off from DF servers in IL2 early on... OIt is the same mentality that creates the everyman for himself furball.. and they exist in every sim or flying game ever made that has multiplayer.

 

Just gotta suck it up and hope the bastige gets some sense of honor.

[[TWB]Outlaw-]

Not everyone in combat has the same code of honor to let a plane perform a forced landing. If someone wants to shoot you up and has the ability, that's their folly. It happened quite often.

[Bearcat]

True... and it will continue.. but a lot of guys I know and fly with would pass on a crash landing smoker for the exact reasons I mentioned.. more simmer mentality than gamer... that was my point.

[[TWB]Outlaw-]

Right and my point is that for immersion purposes, that kind of thing happened a lot in real life. Same with pilots shot in their chutes or strafed on the runway, or pretty much anything we replicate in game.

[Ride]

Back in the earlier days of ROF it wasn't uncommon to give or receive an escort to the ground after being badly damaged.  Was much more fun escorting someone in than blasting them away.

Last time I played that type of thing was basically gone along with the old 'Salute'.

[Elbows]

It sucks, but...I'll be honest, I expect very little from the opposition in online games like IL-2.  Most of the servers running currently plot two airfields about 1 kilometer from each other and it becomes an obscenely boring vulture-fest.

 

I don't care about "honor" and all that stuff - it's more about having fun, and enjoying a challenge.  I've been shot at/shot down by friendly players enough to not even worry about the bad habits of enemy players (particularly if they run out of ammo etc.).

[GP*]

This is getting comical, really. I say that because so many on these forums insist that they want to fly a "simulation," not a "game." 

 

Let's look at the post again:

 

 

Story:
I was bombing Grishin airfield in the Syndicate server in my He-111. A Yak jumped me and shot out my starboard engine and damaged my port engine. I thought I could maybe ride her home through the clouds, but soon noticed my only option was to make an emergency landing at Grishin. What happens next, is two more Yaks join in on strafing me for roughly 2 minutes.
 

 

Lesson:

• What newcomers should understand..

Was that the 1st Yak received credit for the kill even before I started recording. In 2 (maybe 3) passes, he took out my starboard engine, and damaged my port which was still running, but didn't have the juice to make it far; he could have quit right there, saved ammo, and moved on. Even if I was able to land at Grishin, he still would have received credit. The 2 Yaks who jumped in did nothing but waste ammo, had complete tunnel vision on an aircraft that was already combat ineffective, never thought of top cover, and were lucky there were no 109's around. Even if one was the one who ripped me in half, he did not receive credit for the kill, the original Yak did.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What happened to me in the video has become the norm over the past 2 months with a new wave of players who think they have to completely annihilate an aircraft to get the kill. It really does destroy the experience and immersion. Especially for a majority here, if the pilot dies, a piece of the player dies with him.

 

 Leave the unnecessary over-kills for War Thunder.

 

 

Points of contention look like this in the above post (edits made by myself). In those areas, the author does the following:

 

1) Says he was bombing Grishin airfield.

2) Says, after being intercepted and damaged by a Yak, he felt his only option was an emergency landing at Grishin airfield. 

3) States that two additional Yaks continued to shoot him until the scene looked like a Michael Bay film (nice reference, hah). 

4) Goes on to jump to the conclusion that

• The Yak pilots must be noobs, because they must have been trying to gather XP or points or whatever
• This behavior is unwarranted, because clearly he should have the right to land now that his gear is down and nav lights are on
• This behavior must be a bad habit pattern learned from other games, such as WT, and has no place here in this most righteous of simulators
• The pilots of the Yaks sacrificed all tactical prowess in order to commit these atrocious acts

Here's the thing: if these Yak pilots were my wingmen, they did exactly what I would want them to do. I get the fact that because this is a computer game/simulation/virtual world that we're fighting in, that with your gear down and lights on, your intent is to remove yourself from the fight and land. However, let's get back to the simulation part. What if this was real life? What if this was a real historical scenario -- the same type that we try so hard to emulate? Here are some things that would go through my mind:

 

1) This bomber just bombed my airfield. My friends were down there, who knows what happened to them. 

2) He's going back to the airfield again. Sure, he looks damaged, and all indications show that he's trying to land, but what if something else is going on?

• He could legitimately be trying to land, and have suffered so much battle damage that he's going to crash and cause even further damage to my airfield. At best, he'll take out a runway, which will severely impact other aircraft's ability to RTB. If it's a single runway, aircraft may have to force land, which will take them out of the fight for the next sortie, and who knows how long.
• At worst, he'll crash into a building and kill more people
• He could be faking this whole thing. Maybe he's so dedicated that he's really going for another bombing run. Maybe he's a fanatic who's going to drive his plane into the best looking target he can find.

3) When this flaming disaster comes falling down, where do I want the wreckage to fall? Near the base where houses are? Or out here, on extended final, where it's just snow.

 

Ultimately, my job as a fighter pilot is to take this bomber out. Period, dot. For those reasons, I'd certainly be happy to see friendly aircraft still trying to ensure you're eliminated.

 

With that in mind, perhaps you can see why there's a lot more factors in real life than just letting an injured bomber land. Dude, you were trying to land at the same airfield you just bombed! I'll give you points for some serious balls, but you have no right to life at that point. If guys were shooting you as you tried to get back to your own lines, I'd be far more sympathetic.

 

I'm sure some of you will think "that's ridiculous, clearly he was trying to just land." That's the game talking. If you want to fly a simulation, own it. Don't just fight for realistic FMs and then ignore the rest. These are very serious decisions that WWII pilots in your place would really have to think about. Maybe consider adding "combat decision making" to your list things to simulate. 

 

If you still think I'm being ridiculous, let me throw this in -- yes, I'm a fighter pilot in real life, and yes, these are things I consider to be both tactically relevant and very important.

 

Mic drop. 

[Bearcat]

You outtie?

 

Lots of food for thought in that post... although .. because this is a sim.. and not real life.. and we all get to hit refly..it probably was all about the points...

 

But I can dig where you are coming from on the real tip.. We take a lot for granted being armchair pilots..

[Cybermat47]

If you still think I'm being ridiculous, let me throw this in -- yes, I'm a fighter pilot in real life, and yes, these are things I consider to be both tactically relevant and very important.

 

Mic drop.

 

It's always good to get the opinion of people who do this thing in real life

[ilikepie]

 

 

We take a lot for granted being armchair pilots..

we have arm chairs?

Edited October 23, 2014 by ilikepie

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

I have seen too many kamikazes over the years to trust any plane, no matter how disabled or what is being signaled, that still tries to get to target, in any fashion, never mind land there.  I have seen enemy bombers land at a friendly base and then shoot the hell out of anything it can from the gunner positions.  Agree with Prefontaine.  To go one further, if a cripple is trying to get back to their own lines, it is still open to attack.  If I have shot up a plane that can no longer fight, they better land on my side of the lines.

 

If you wished to ditch and show non-aggressive behavior to the enemy you should head away from the target area, get to the deck asap, and put it down.  It probably still won't stop someone from strafing you but that's the way it goes.

 

Best option, bailout. 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 If I smoke the engine(s), I disengage. Won't go far. The time I use sitting behind that damaged target is time for an another attacker to get a good firing solution on me. Never fly straight more than 3-5 seconds over "enemy territory". Get hit? Dive for the deck and belly land or if near own base, get there at best speed. Land normally if possible or emergency slide to the ground. Speed is life and altitude can be converted to speed. Simple.

[HagarTheHorrible]

You were trying to land at the airfield you'd just bombed ????

 

Geeeee, that sounds healthy. Sounds like the Yaks saved the AAA a job. Maybe the Yak pilots were in fact German and they just wanted to stop you handing over a bomber to the enemy.

 

In my experience (reading you understand), aircrew in badly damaged aircraft that are still libel to be attacked tend to jump out. Just as the attackers had an option, so did you. RoF is different, there is no second option, even then people cheated by turning off their damaged engines to try and avoid being stat killed or even just to deny their victor the satisfaction all the while moaning how dastardly shooting helpless aircraft was.

 

There's lots of gun cam footage that shows the strafing of crashed aircraft. Even when the ultimate price for a mistake was death and the victim was of no conceivable threat, real pilots strafed helpless victims and it wasn't even just those beastly Germans, it was everybody (apart from the Brit's, obviously).

 

I'm glad to hear you are so concerned about VVS ammunition expenditure, shocking really. Just think how much money could be saved to donate to orphaned cat's homes.

 

The main difference between sim and life is that neither side in the sim value death or mortal danger and that goes for you, the bomber pilot, just as much as the pilots of the two Yaks. Maybe they were wrong to keep a attacking you, but it might be argued that you were just as wrong to try and keep flying.

Edited October 23, 2014 by HagarTheHorrible

[GP*]

Until angry farmers with pitchforks and the local militia are modeled. Then it will get really interesting.

Haha, now THAT would be something!

[Pringliano]

Or, simply have the pacifist option of never shooting at no one!

 

Follow your enemies until the point youthink that a burts would should themn down, then pick another...

 

I have also played another game one of these days, and the results were amazing!  I played Kamikaze!!! No shootong, just trying to collide with the opponent ! 

[VRPilot]

some time ago I called out to stop shooting parachutes, for the same reason, the guy in the chute is already defeted. But with no success. It' just the internet. You will find guys that play there own role play as you find guys that only care for stats and kills.

[GER_GD]

Look the same thing happens in other sims.. Part of this is the "gamer" mentality. A simmer would have said.. "Thius guy is in I am going for fresh meat or saving my ammo in case I have to fight my way home.." a gamer will say "POINTS POINTS POINTS!! " ... This was one of the things that turned me off from DF servers in IL2 early on... OIt is the same mentality that creates the everyman for himself furball.. and they exist in every sim or flying game ever made that has multiplayer.

 

Just gotta suck it up and hope the bastige gets some sense of honor.

+1

Edited October 23, 2014 by SYN_GD

[aletto]

But, but... XP and Lions!

[Nibbio]

Inter arma, silent leges

[Jaws2002]

Rule #1 of a bomber pilot: try not to land or bail out over the area you just bombed.

The landing lights, and gear down are such a gamey move in a game.

" Hey, I just bombed your house, my gunners killed your wingman, now my plane is crippled and I can't hurt anyone of you anymore, but I just turned my lights on and you can't shoot me." If this is not gamey attitude what is it then?

American pilots in ww2 had orders to strafe crash landed planes, to take the pilot out of the fight.

From the moment I spawn a plane in the server I am part of a team and I consider myself a valid target for the opposing team. If this was for real, that's how it would be.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

Look the same thing happens in other sims.. Part of this is the "gamer" mentality. A simmer would have said.. "Thius guy is in I am going for fresh meat or saving my ammo in case I have to fight my way home.." a gamer will say "POINTS POINTS POINTS!! " ... This was one of the things that turned me off from DF servers in IL2 early on... OIt is the same mentality that creates the everyman for himself furball.. and they exist in every sim or flying game ever made that has multiplayer.

 

Just gotta suck it up and hope the bastige gets some sense of honor.

 

I like what you say here Bearcat and there were many very good comment/opinions made here. From wasted ammo to overkill and on to odd thoughts of landing were you just created havoc. This borders on the discussions in RoF about strafing  the aircraft trying to take off from an airfield. Fair game in my opinion but frustrating for others.

 

Chief

Edited October 23, 2014 by -NW-ChiefRedCloud

[Y-29.Silky]

I like the points some people are making, especially Requiems, I should have done that instead. But maybe I didn't clarify well enough as some people think this was on my mind..

I just bombed this airfield, I'm severely damaged, therefore, I deserve a safe passage to the airfield I just leveled.

This is far from the truth and not even the point I'm trying to get across. For one thing, I had to drop my bombs 30km short the airfield due to the damage I received, and at the time, I felt I was too low to bail out (crash landing is more fun anyways )
 

@Prefontaine, sorry I didn't clarify it enough, but if you damaged a bomber, and forced him to drop his bombs before your airfield, I know for a fact that "in real life", as a fighter pilot, you would first try to get that bomber to land at the airfield unless he's not cooperating (which I believe is still rewarded as a kill in real life). If you want to shoot him up for the fun of it, and enemy fighters arrived on the scene, I bet you would regret the fireworks you made from the bomber. Especially in WWII, ammo was your life, it's good not to waste it.

The reward system has been on my mind for quite some time now, particularly from 2 instances..

1) When I first started a long time ago, before the Syn/Eagles servers, I was damaged by AAA, was able to make it home and even turn my engine off. Regardless, it said "Silky was shot down by AAA", I was like "Wtf? I made it back", then someone said they damaged my engine. If it were a player, he would have received credit.

2) Fast forward to the Eagles Nest, I see a smoking La-5 at low altitude heading for home, was no threat to me, nor my teammates. I dove on him, ripped his wing off, he Michael Bay's into the ground, and I didn't get credit for the kill because someone already damaged him enough. Diving on him was a waste of altitude and ammo, and I should have just let him go.

[Dakpilot]

Today watched a PE-2 bomb German airfield, miss target then did a forced landing (intentional) and stopped nearby on... end of runway, the rear gunner then went on to happily shoot at every 109 before preparing for departure

 

Moral = expect to be shot down anywhere near enemy airfield

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Not enough AAA on that field Dakpilot

[Dakpilot]

Maybe off topic but I was shot down and crashed in a G2 at Russian field, ended up close to runway and very close to enemy AA but due to the fact the "game engine" thought I was "killed" they left me alone... if I had been in a stuka would I have been able to shoot up anything and still be ignored? how does AA gunner AI deal with that situation,,,i could almost see the gunners faces but they ignored me even though my cannon was still functional

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Nil]

I used to be feeling bad when flying multi engined planes in the original IL2-1946 at they gave the enemy 2x the point if I messed up and got shot down, B-f110, P38, B-25 etc etc..

This behavior on the other hand will always happen.. and in this case you were still on the way to enemy airfield, so they did right in totally incapaciting you.. who deserved the point most? Well maybe the one that gave you the chance to break off.. or the others ganging up to prevent you from turrenting them on the ground.

We should have an 'official' code of flares..One color means 'I'm beaten and will try to ditch on home soil' and if not breaking off.. then being free prey. etc etc

[Y-29.Silky]

S!

 

 Not enough AAA on that field Dakpilot

I just realized in the video, the AAA wasn't shooting at me.

 

We should have an 'official' code of flares..One color means 'I'm beaten and will try to ditch on home soil' and if not breaking off.. then being free prey. etc etc

That's what the navigation lights are for (In 1946 especially).

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

Yup. Was on the Syndicate server last night, flying an IL-2, was outnumbered 7-1 with 20 ground kills and no deaths when I was rammed while touching down at base. 

Just brutal.

[jadebullet]

Your gunners shot at them, all sense of honor is negated and you needed to be put down. I know, I know, AI gunners and all, but still, immersion wise, there was a B-17 squadron that was supposed to have been particularly hunted by the Luftwaffe based on an event where a B-17 put its gear down in surrender, but the gunners didn't get the message and when the 109 pulled up alongside, it got shot up. 

Edited October 23, 2014 by jadebullet

[Y-29.Silky]

Your gunners shot at them, all sense of honor is negated and you needed to be put down. I know, I know, AI gunners and all, but still, immersion wise, there was a B-17 squadron that was supposed to have been particularly hunted by the Luftwaffe based on an event where a B-17 put its gear down in surrender, but the gunners didn't get the message and when the 109 pulled up alongside, it got shot up. 

When 3 Yaks are diving and shooting at you, of course my AI gunners are going to shoot back, they were absolutely worthless by the way.. I don't think you're getting the message either. In real life yes, the fighter had to pull up to the enemy to surrender, but that's not relevant here.

[39bn_pavig]

Maybe we could hash out an etiquette document for online play and get it pinned under tutorials. It could be helpful to explain the logic behind playing fair for newcomers. Of course there would be server based variations (eg vulching vs no vulching etc.)

Edited October 24, 2014 by 39bn_pavig