Are AI Enemy Gunners in Campaign too accurate?

[ducs]

What do you think? Why?

[Finkeren]

No.

 

We are too gung ho and not nearly careful enough. As soon as I start flying conservative and only shoot from long distances, use blind angles and/or high speed diving passes I hardly ever get hit at all.

[FlatSpinMan]

I agree with Fink. It'd be a shame if they made enemy AI weaker.

[[TWB]80hd]

Considering the limited amount of time you have to bounce lightning fast Soviet bombers, your attack options are limited.

 

If the Russians had gunners like that, and the Germans had mission parameters like we do, there wouldn't have been many planes left after the first 2 weeks of Barbarossa, let alone Stalingrad.

[Reflected]

I think AI gunners are crazy accurate.

[FlatSpinMan]

But they were dangerous, and what's more, there were more of them in one place than we tend to encounter.

As for limited time to bounce the Pe-2's, well, yeah, that was the whole point of that aircraft. To make it too fast to intercept. It can be done, but it's not supposed to be easy.

 

Now please note that as I say this, I am far from being a good pilot. I'm not even competent! Most of my deaths are from flying into the ground or those goddamned collidable trees because I'm too preoccupied looking at the view out the window.

[PKH]

For me the issue is more about the damage of machineguns in general, although accuracy for gunners should be affected by the G forces and angular velocities of the plane, and I don't think they are. The fact that machineguns can oneshot an fw-190 from the front seems a bit much.

[[TWB]80hd]

I seek out the highest difficulty level, in whatever I do.

 

I don't mind a challenge. However, I am turned off by artificial difficulty. To some extent, you're not going to completely get away from that except by playing online.

 

But when MY AI gunner can't hit the AI fighter camped on my six, but the enemy AI gunner can clip my wing in a high deflection pass pretty regularly, it conjures images of War Thunder.

 

I'm only playing the campaign to unlock the required unlocks, so it's no skin off my ass if the expert AI gunners handily outperform their historical counterparts, as I will just play online where the AI gunner magically are 10% effective hahahaha...

 

My hat's off to player gunners... Against a savvy fighter pilot, it's TOUGH to get a kill.

[Obelix]

Because they are all , on russian side, called "Vassili Grigorievitch Zaïtsev"...

Edited October 21, 2014 by GCN_Obelix

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

I think some people are not really acquainted with bomber interception tactics.

Try the opposite!! Start a quick mission and jump to gunner position. Wait for some AI noob pilot following you from behind to get really close. Fire away and send him to hell. 

 

No one can miss !! Even AI gunners.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Gunners were far from this deadly as portrayed in game. Jorma Sarvanto shot down 6 of 7 SB-2 bombers ALONE and there was less than 10 holes found on his Fokker D.XXI. Same applied to other gunners, there are no reported losses to IL-2 gunners or PE-2 gunners in FiAF as far I know. And in Pe-2's the side guns were usually taken out as well as the belly gun due it's very limited use. The top gunner was easy to avoid by flying a bit lower than the tail and he could not shoot. Another tactic was to just kill the gunners first, especially with Brewsters rather heavy 4 x .50cal armament. And usually the Pe-2's or IL-2 did very little if any evasive maneuvering. As war progressed pilots did report of sometimes formations tightening up or so, but still defensive fire was never mentioned being deadly accurate. AI is AI and this is a game, so a compromise.

[Finkeren]

Just to be sure, I did about a dozen consecutive intercept missions in the Fw 190 this afternoon all but 2 against Pe-2s. I shot down the far majority of the bombers and was only shot down once myself (by escorting Yaks) and recieved critical engine damage once (by a Pe-2) all other missions I completed unharmed save for the odd single bullet hit that did only superficial damage. Steep slashing attacks from alternating directions were my prefered attack pattern, and the Pe-2's were completely without a chance.

 

Gunners are fine. If you park your aircraft on the tail of a bomber, don't act surprised when it shots you down. In any other case, you'll be unlucky to recieve fatal damage even from repeated attacks.

[Potenz]

as other said, if want to engage dead 6 o'clock be ready to get holed by the gunners, 

if you use sharp attack tactics and fast passes you'll be fine.

[Matt]

I've perhaps flown 20 or so interception missions and have been shot down once and lightly damaged maybe 2-3 times. I usually attack from the side and/or from above and almost never get hit.

 

I think accuracy of AI guners and AAA is fine as it is and wouldn't want them to tone it down.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Matt

[Bussard_x]

No I do not think so, gunners are okay as they are now. Don't get to close on his six, that is my nr. 1 rule approaching bombers. It's easier aiming for the gunner than for you. So there is a big change he will have you in his cross hairs before you do.

 

Fire at larger distance or do a fast hit and run attack from aside or above.

[[TWB]80hd]

I flew a ton today, only got shot down once... my rig is a slideshow though, so I am pretty erratic... hard to get hits, still a kill or two each mission.

 

However, this was level 5/6... the guys at level 10 have a different story... dunno if that makes a different difficulty wise or not... I DO know that it's tough playing at like 5-10 fps hahaha

[Y-29.Silky]

I think they are in the respect that they either..

 

1) Kill your pilot

2) Kill yourengine

3) Rip your wing off

 

.. This is fine, except that it happens way too often vs just being lightly damaged.

 

I think the AAA is fine.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Silky

[[TWB]80hd]

The REAL problem with the AI:

 

1. The bungholes will bomb my supply depot... like ninja that sh*t right out from under me.  Lay a satan right in the middle, so I get 4 buildings.  Awesome run.  Thanks, gents.

 

2.  They WON'T engage tanks when I tell them to.  They make the passes with me, but I guess they are too cool to fire a shot.

 

3.  The AI fighters can run right up on a bombers 6 oclock and never miss a shot, and not even get oiled.  I can HOSE Peshka's down in both engines, CRUSH them with a mult-second burst of 3 x 20mm MG 151s + 2 MG17s... which at least sets them ablaze... meaning they will continue to fly and shoot for the next 5 minutes.

 

AI is not "fine" but at least at low levels it's not horrific.

 

AAA was dead-on-ballsing me like 75% of the time when campaigns  first came out... I stay away from airfields now, but it doesn't seem too bad anymore.

[Gambit21]

What do you think? Why?

No

Get me shooting at you and you'll wish you had the AI gunners back.

[[TWB]80hd]

No

Get me shooting at you and you'll wish you had the AI gunners back.

 

[Gambit21]

What I said is true of a lot of people who have been doing this for a long time.

No biggie.

[[TWB]80hd]

What I said is true of a lot of people who have been doing this for a long time.

No biggie.

 

We'll be on the Syndicate in about an hour or so, come show us how it's done.

[Gambit21]

Sorry if you're having trouble dude, but I'm not a teenager so you can't bait me like one.

If you can't shoot as well as the AI, don't know what to tell you.

I'll be happy to 'show you how it's done' if I ever find myself as a tail-gunner and you stupidly don't keep your arse moving

across the sky like you should. 

[FlatSpinMan]

No need for any niggling here. I think most people would find human gunners more dangerous than AI.

[Gambit21]

yep - pretty common knowledge if you've flown online much.

[[TWB]80hd]

Sorry if you're having trouble dude, but I'm not a teenager so you can't bait me like one.

If you can't shoot as well as the AI, don't know what to tell you.

I'll be happy to 'show you how it's done' if I ever find myself as a tail-gunner and you stupidly don't keep your arse moving

across the sky like you should. 

 

You may not be a teenager, but you sure seem as insecure as one.

 

I was playing with you, and merely invited you to the meet up we have on Tuesday nights. (Which you're still more than welcome to come join)

 

For someone who professes to have "been around" for awhile, you sure have some thick skin bro HAHAHAHAHA

[Gambit21]

[Finkeren]

Cut the personal crap pls

[Finkeren]

As for the accuracy issue, it's propably one of the most difficult realism issues to determine in a flight sim, because close to all evidence will be anecdotal.

 

One thing is for sure: We cannot use real life loss rates as indication for how 'deadly' gunners should be. On average both we as human players and the AI fly so carelessly and with so little regard for our virtual lives that much higher loss rates is more or less a given for fighters and bombers alike.

 

In real life it was rare for pilots to take the chances we do almost every mission and do a multitude of passes on a target that's firing back.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

I think they are ok. Unlocked everything in the 190 tonight, did almost exclusively intercept, and wasn't shot down a single time, while killing ~12 bombers/Il2 for sure, and i was even using the Sturmböcke tactics a lot. I think that's ok, when you compare the 2 armaments. I'd love to see, how it works, when B17 or B24 come into this game, and you really need proper tactics (when you are not exactly flying a heavily shielded A8) to be safe.

I got hit a few times, which never occured to me in multiplayer, so i think they are better in singleplayer. But instead of changing the gunners in SP, i would rather buff the gunners in MP to the same level

[Finkeren]

The AI gunners in human controlled planes is a seperate issue. Apparently the movements a human pilot do with the plane completely throws off the AIs aim and makes it unable to hit even very easy targets. It's the same thing in RoF.

[darxide]

They are even more accurate and deadly than what we have in WarThunder, not to mention IRL.

 

I witnessed how 2 JU-87 D-3 wipe out 3 ai controlled La-5s then one shotted mine. 

 

However, historically you can find video footages and documents on fighters attacking even more dreadful B-17 from 6 o'clock, fire a whole burst withing 300m  then break off without any serious damage.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Ive got no issues with their current accuracy. You only get shot up if you park right up behind one - and honestly if you do that you deserve to be shot down. Fast slashing attacks will see your survival rate increase.

[Finkeren]

However, historically you can find video footages and documents on fighters attacking even more dreadful B-17 from 6 o'clock, fire a whole burst withing 300m then break off without any serious damage.

Several points there.

 

1. Yes there are videos showing that, but they are in the minority. In fact the far majority of attacks recorded by the American bomber crews in 1943 were frontal attacks. LW fighters seldom made more than one pass against the bombers.

 

2. We don't see the videos from the pilots who got shot down doing that.

 

3. Luftwaffe losses during the unescorted USAAF raids were quite high. Even during the notoriously disasterous 2nd raid on Schweinfurt, the Luftwaffe lost around 40 fighters to the USAAFs 77 B-17 with further 20 LW fighters being damaged beyond repair, and that was considered a very good result.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Finkeren

[Y-29.Silky]

People need to stop assuming everyone is sitting on the 6 o'clock like an idiot. I'm going to assume, in real life, it took a whole combat box, and a wall of lead to rip a wing off an attacking fighter. Right now, a lone side gunner will do it.

[Finkeren]

People need to stop assuming everyone is sitting on the 6 o'clock like an idiot.

What else can we assume, when I myself can go from being shot down by gunners every 2 missions to shooting down loads of bombers mission after mission with hardly a scratch just by changing my tactics from "hanging onto the targets' six like an asshat" to flying conservatively and deliberately avoiding risk?

[darxide]

Several points there.

 

1. Yes there are videos showing that, but they are in the minority. In fact the far majority of attacks recorded by the American bomber crews in 1943 were frontal attacks. LW fighters seldom made more than one pass against the bombers.

 

2. We don't see the videos from the pilots who got shot down doing that.

 

3. Luftwaffe losses during the unescorted USAAF raids were quite high. Even during the notoriously disasterous 2nd raid on Schweinfurt, the Luftwaffe lost around 40 fighters to the USAAFs 77 B-17 with further 20 LW fighters being damaged beyond repair, and that was considered a very good result.

 

 

1 This picture depicting tactic on attacking B-17 is quoted from D.(Luft) 5001 Horrido - Des Jägers Schiessfibel , wirtten by Adolf Galland.  He himself verified this and introduced it to other Luftwaffe pilots, which is the point of the book. IMHO this proofs that even if attacking from 6 oclock is not optimal (no frontal weapon mounted on early B-17 models), it is still a valid and widely used tactic.

 

2 Total losses to bomber self defence are actually small.

 

3 During the raid on Schweinfurt, several squardons of P-47 managed to engage Luftwaffe fighters and are the cause of major Luftwaffe losses.

Several points there.

 

1. Yes there are videos showing that, but they are in the minority. In fact the far majority of attacks recorded by the American bomber crews in 1943 were frontal attacks. LW fighters seldom made more than one pass against the bombers.

 

2. We don't see the videos from the pilots who got shot down doing that.

 

3. Luftwaffe losses during the unescorted USAAF raids were quite high. Even during the notoriously disasterous 2nd raid on Schweinfurt, the Luftwaffe lost around 40 fighters to the USAAFs 77 B-17 with further 20 LW fighters being damaged beyond repair, and that was considered a very good result.

 Besides, I believe the total number of B-17 is 291, plus 60 B-24.

77 is the number of B-17 being shot down.

 

 

Edit to correct image issues

Edited October 22, 2014 by darxide

[Finkeren]

Besides, I believe the total number of B-17 is 291, plus 60 B-24.

77 is the number of B-17 being shot down.

Yes, I know.

 

Also: the picture you posted doesn't depict a 'tactic' as such. It's simply an instruction on how to use the sight recticle to find the right time to open fire relative to convergence.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Finkeren

[darxide]

Yes, I know.

And in game, even Ju-87 D-3 can instapop anyone that tries to approach from 6 oclock.

[[TWB]dillon_biz]

Last night I was downed twice in a row by a Pe-2 gunner. 

 

First time I came from the Peshka's high 4-5 and I was on fire before I got within 300 meters. 

 

The next mission I merged the with Peshkas head on, Immelmann'd, and dove under the trailing Pe-2 only to have my radial engine be knocked out by a single round from a belly gunner 400 meters away.  

 

So I'd say they're a little too accurate.  

 

 

Sorry if you're having trouble dude, but I'm not a teenager so you can't bait me like one.

If you can't shoot as well as the AI, don't know what to tell you.

I'll be happy to 'show you how it's done' if I ever find myself as a tail-gunner and you stupidly don't keep your arse moving

across the sky like you should. 

 

 

Thank god you posted in this thread about campaign AI gunners to let everyone know how much of a ~boss~ you are riding shotgun.