109 swing to the right during take off?

[303_Kwiatek]

I watched lates video with 109 and everything look very nice etc. but i found one strange thing. During take off 109 in BOS need apply left rudder to counter swing to the right.  It looks that something is not right. Should be exacly oppoiste. 

 

109 got clockwise prop direction ( from cocpit) which casue 2 things during take off.:

- Corkscrew Effect should casue swing to the left in 109 which sould be counter by right rudder

- Gyroscopic effect should casue also swing to the left when tailwhell is rised in 109  - so it also should be counter by right rudder.

 

So both effect casue in 109 during take off roll swing to the left which should be counter by right rudder.

 

I dunno why in BOS there is opposite? Only reason which could make hard swing to the right in 109 during take off  is strong  right side crosswind?

 

 

 

Some 109 take off notes:

 

[Cavemanhead]

I watched lates video with 109 and everything look very nice etc. but i found one strange thing. During take off 109 in BOS need apply left rudder to counter swing to the right.  It looks that something is not right. Should be exacly oppoiste. 

 

109 got clockwise prop direction ( from cocpit) which casue 2 things during take off.:

- Corkscrew Effect should casue swing to the left in 109 which sould be counter by right rudder

- Gyroscopic effect should casue also swing to the left when tailwhell is rised in 109  - so it also should be counter by right rudder.

 

So both effect casue in 109 during take off roll swing to the left which should be counter by right rudder.

 

I dunno why in BOS there is opposite? Only reason which could make hard swing to the right in 109 during take off  is strong  right side crosswind?

 

 

 

Some 109 take off notes:

 

Wondered the same thing... Why the left rudder?

[303_Kwiatek]

Although i read also that initialy with 3 point take off roll 109 could swing to the right then when tailwhell was up gyro moment casue it swing to the left. 

 

But i wonder why it could swing initialy to the right if prop wash should casue it swing to the left

 

Prop wash

A propeller pushes air not just horizontally to the back, but more in a twisting helix around the fuselage (clockwise as seen from the cockpit). As the air whirls around the fuselage it pushes against the left side of the vertical tail (assuming it is located above the propeller's axis), causing the plane to yaw to the left. The prop wash effect is at its greatest when the airflow is flowing more around the fuselage than along it, i.e., at high power and low airspeed, which is the situation when starting the takeoff run

[ACG_Kraut]

I think he just mis-spoke and that he is actually using the right pedal. If you watch closely, the plane lurches to the left with the RPM increase and he has to compensate back to the right, as it should be. 

Edited September 1, 2013 by [AKA]Kraut

[z0ttel]

@Kwiatek: just out of interest - what's the name of the book we're looking at?

[Sethos]

I'm pretty sure they got it correctly. Notice how the plane veers to the left, then a major rudder adjustment makes it swing right and then a pendulum effect starts. 

 

http://abload.de/img/untitled-1f2sox.gif

 

( Slowed it down a bit )

Edited September 1, 2013 by Sethos

[Matt]

You can actually see for a split second, that he pushes the right pedal and not the left.

[303_Kwiatek]

If so everything is ok. Loft just mistake left with right   From video with watch carefully it looks that 109 try to swing to the left and pilot counter it by right pedal.

[Rodolphe]

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@Kwiatek: just out of interest - what's the name of the book we're looking at?

 

 

 

 

http://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=49367&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=45002

 

http://www.haynes.com/products/productID/666

...

Edited September 1, 2013 by Rodolphe

[leitmotiv]

they really have to be careful what they say in live streams nothing pass unnoticed,

 

and the pressure on dev player not to crashing on landing or take off with simmers watching your every move

Edited September 1, 2013 by Yaklover

[z0ttel]

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http://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=49367&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=45002

 

http://www.haynes.com/products/productID/666

...

 

Thank you!

[ACG_Kraut]

 

 

 

http://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=49367&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=45002

 

http://www.haynes.com/products/productID/666

...

 

Holy crap I thought that was a joke, I can't believe that actually exists! Awesome, now where do I get my Chilton's version 

 

they really have to be careful what they say in live streams   nothing pass unnoticed,

 

and the pressure on dev player not to crashing on landing or take off with simmers watching your every move 

 

Remember what they say too: You lose about 50% of your normal brainpower the moment you hop into a pit. I think this is true for sims as well. I'll catch myself making mistakes talking while flying all the time when recording fraps and streaming.

Edited September 2, 2013 by [AKA]Kraut

[DD_Crash]

Holy crap I thought that was a joke, I can't believe that actually exists! Awesome, now where do I get my Chilton's version 

 

 

 

You would be amazed at the number of things you can get Haynes Manuals for I have the Vulcan, Hurricane, Spitfire, Bf 109, B-17, Lancaster and the 617Sqd  special weapons. I might also get the SR71.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Holy crap this is awesome! Lets make sure loft has these manuals lol!

[TRIAS]

I asked this question on russian forum and one of developers confirmed that it was indeed a mistake on LOFTs part. So no worries gents, all looks good so far.

[69th_chuter]

I'm pretty sure they got it correctly. Notice how the plane veers to the left, then a major rudder adjustment makes it swing right and then a pendulum effect starts. 

 

http://abload.de/img/untitled-1f2sox.gif

 

( Slowed it down a bit )

Well, then, that starts another thread (lol).  Taildraggers don't have a directional pendulum effect on the ground.  They are very directionally unstable on the ground (very much less so if they use a locked tailwheel) and once the nose starts going to one side it only accelerates in that direction.  The wobbling back and forth in 1946 has always bothered me and seems to be the result of simply continuing the aircraft's given inflight directional stability on the ground.

[RAF74_Winger]

Well, then, that starts another thread (lol).  Taildraggers don't have a directional pendulum effect on the ground.  They are very directionally unstable on the ground (very much less so if they use a locked tailwheel) and once the nose starts going to one side it only accelerates in that direction.  The wobbling back and forth in 1946 has always bothered me and seems to be the result of simply continuing the aircraft's given inflight directional stability on the ground.

 

You're over-thinking it. The pendulum effect you're seeing is pilot induced through over correction, not an artifact of the physics model. Though I will say that the 109 looks a bit like the wheel reactions are acting vertically instead of along the axes of the gear legs. However, I suspect that this is a design decision to make sure that the take-off and landing are manageable by the majority of sim pilots.

 

W.

[LG1.Farber]

The Haines manual is not that good guys.  Its not like a regular haines manual.  A much better book is Messerschmitt Bf109 Recognition Maunal  by Marco Fernandez-Sommerau.  Also those notes refer to 1 aircraft, black 6, another 109 is mentioned but i cant remember the name of it.  So yuo could say those notes are specific to one 80 year old aircraft.

 

Here is some more 109 info on the subject with credible sources:

 

Pilot's Notes for Messerschmitt BF109
(based on reports by RAE, Farnborough)
Printed by Crecy Publications in Spetember 2000

 

Ground handling qualties of the Bf109.

Page 8

Take-Off

The slotted flaps are set at the recommended position of 20 [degrees] for take off.  The throttle opens very quickly, responding almost instantaneously to throttle movements.  The direct injection system means there is no risk of choking.  The initial acceleration is very good and the aircraft will not bucket or sing.  When running along the ground the aircraft will rock slightly from side to side but the movement is minimal and should not concern the pilot.  

On opening the throttle the stick should be held hard forward.  The tail will come up quickly and the stick can then be eased back.  The pilot should hold the aircraft on the ground for a short time after flying speed has been achieved.  If the aeroplane pulls off too soon the left wing will not lift.  On applying the opposite aileron the wing will come up, fall again with the ailerons snatching somewhat.  As long as the aircraft is not pulled off too quickly take off is easy and straight forward.

The take-off run required is very short and initial rate of climb is fast.


Page 9

Landing

Landing the Bf109 is difficult.  This is due to two main factors.  Firstly the high ground attitude of the aircraft and secondly due to the narrowness of the main undercarriage.

The aircraft must be rotated through a large angle before touchdown requiring a fair amount of skill from the pilot, tempting him to do a wheel landing.  If a wheel landing is attempted there is a strong tendency for the left wing to drop just before touchdown.  When the ailerons are used quickly to bring the wing up they to snatch a little resulting in over-correction.  To achieve a three wheel landing the pilot should become easily accustomed to the landing technique and have no further problems.

The centre of gravity is unusually far behind the main wheels and the brakes can be fully applied immediately after touchdown, without lifting the tail.  The ground run is very short with no tendency to swing or bucket.  As the large ground attitude causes the nose of the aircraft to be very high visibility is poor for taxiing.  Landing at night is difficult.


Page 9

Ground Handling

The Bf109 can be taxied very fast as the large tail weight prevents it from bouncing or bucketing.  Turning rapidly is difficult and a large amount of throttle is required combined with a firm use of the differential brakes if attempting to maneuver in a tight space.  Apart from this turning the ground handling qualities are good.  The brakes are powerful and can be used without fear of lifting the tail.  The brakes are foot operated.

 

 

Messerschmitt Bf109 Recognition Maunal  
Marco Fernandez-Sommerau


Page 90

In the 1930's, the Bf109 had some design peculiarities that were shared by several other aircraft of the time .  It was, together with the Vickers Supermarine Spitfire and also some fighters of the Italian Reggiane Family, a mass-produced fighter with an outwardly retracting undercarriage.  This had both advantages and drawbacks:  the Bf109's narrow track arrangement not only allowed for quick dismantling of the wings, but once they were detached, the aircraft could still stand on it's oleo legs and be wheeled around.  The other practical advantage was that this design approach resulted in the Bf109 being significantly smaller and lighter than many other contemporary fighters.

 

[69th_chuter]

You're over-thinking it. The pendulum effect you're seeing is pilot induced through over correction, not an artifact of the physics model. Though I will say that the 109 looks a bit like the wheel reactions are acting vertically instead of along the axes of the gear legs. However, I suspect that this is a design decision to make sure that the take-off and landing are manageable by the majority of sim pilots.

 

W.

Well, I wasn't thinking about it at all, really, it just looked like 1946 - and I know how that is.  You could very well be right and I hope you are.

[BSS214Plane-Eater]

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http://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=49367&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=45002

 

http://www.haynes.com/products/productID/666

...

 

 

Ah, Haynes.  You know what that means.

 

SECTION 12

ENGAGING IN COMBAT

 

STEP 1: Disconnect the negative battery cable.

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