Leaf Posted October 19, 2014 Posted October 19, 2014 I remember watching this in 2009 and thinking "wow, that's amazing". So for those who haven't seen it, or those doubting the complexity behind the game engine, enjoy:
dburne Posted October 19, 2014 Posted October 19, 2014 Nice video. While I am critical of the current status of BOS, and disappointed, I will also say they did a really good job with ROF. I still have ROF installed and undoubtedly will be flying it again here very soon.
Leaf Posted October 19, 2014 Author Posted October 19, 2014 Nice video. While I am critical of the current status of BOS, and disappointed, I will also say they did a really good job with ROF. I still have ROF installed and undoubtedly will be flying it again here very soon. Absolutely. Loaded up again in for the first time in months and man... it's still as great as I remember it. Despite BoS's shortcomings, I'm fully aware that RoF wasn't perfect when I played it back in '09. It was very much like BoS is now: nice at the core, but needing polish. Provided the devs get enough revenue, I'm sure BoS will follow the same amazing path that RoF did!
Pringliano Posted October 19, 2014 Posted October 19, 2014 One of these days while finding one of the Campaign missions I placed my fighter in the propwash / slipstream of an H111. The flow and turbulence were evident! 2
=LD=Hethwill Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Friends that have only average interest in air simulation were very impressed on all the details. One thing I shown them is the AI. If you guys have the chance, during your campaigns, play an escort and then wait for all the bomber landing routine, so you land last. AI does everything, radio comms, landing procedures and taxi out to park. Also had to explain them some of the landings, on a side slip, were done 'cause of the wind... they were quite impressed. Who knows, maybe they decide to jump in.
LLv34_Flanker Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 S! The AI is horrendous. Fighter AI is predictable, but that is of course because I have been playing MP during my "flight sim career" more than SP. Bombers are stupid, they get damaged and still stubbornly try to keep formation with a burning wing. Not the slightest intent to head home. Also if the lead plane is damaged then the rest of the formation turns into a Benny Hill parade pretty fast etc. Add to that the really strange route planning missions have, like putting a low flying formation to fly dead center over a defended airfield. Oh boy the I'm wounded, bailing and on fire you hear. SIGH! AI not obeying your commands, at all makes we want to throw the joystick out of the window. I am in the middle of a furball, order them to engage enemy fighters(lot of them around) and what does AI do? NOTHING AT ALL! And to rub it in the AAA shoots me 2km above the bombers when the bombers are well within a more lethal engagement range. AAA also shoots through clouds no problem, also the smaller calibre guns. Darkness limits their accuracy a bit and they do not shoot in an instant exactly where you are. So telling AI is amazing while it is not..oh well. While DN engine offers fidelity in variety of things it lacks the flexibility to have large battles without choking into a crawl. Forget 100+ players and a raging ground war with AI thrown into the mix. Could it handle that too, then DN would be THE thing to really be a successor of IL-2, not just used in a title with similar name. Harshly said maybe, but that is how I see it. Still..there are a lot of positives that do amaze and make one say nice job. It is not all critics
=LD=Hethwill Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) Ain't perfect, but surely is great and better than before, and as I read somewhere - "It doesn't matter if the glass is half empty or half full. There is clearly room for more beer." - so i expect development of AI after release And being AI coding the holy grail of computing I would expect a further development down the road albeit limited. Also on the combat side I think they behave normal and acceptable as seen in this simple snippet The Lagg wing merge good, gains separation, comes in synch'ed wing, blasts a bomber and booms through. AI bombers try to stick together and evade at same time, given they are only 2 they couldn't do much more. AI pilot tries to control the 2nd shot bomber and head home until he loses the elevator control. Then they start to bail out. I don't see anything behind all other sims. Actually they behave in a credible manner. And yes there are some strange buggy behaviours. Hoping they get recoded myself. Edited October 20, 2014 by =LD=Hethwill_Khan
SharpeXB Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 What's the best about DN is: All the AI fly with the same flight model as the player! Other sims use an artificial model to fill up the skies but that means your enemy flies like a UFO The AI in RoF is good compared to other sims where they either just ignore you as you fly through a formation of enemy fighters shooting them down and they just fly straight and level. Or they're like fighting the T-1000 and are unbeatable and unwound able. I'm not naming sims but you all know which ones... ;-) In ROF the AI can't see through clouds and retreat when damaged so I'm sure that finds its way to BoS.
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 What's the best about DN is: All the AI fly with the same flight model as the player! Other sims use an artificial model to fill up the skies but that means your enemy flies like a UFO The AI in RoF is good compared to other sims where they either just ignore you as you fly through a formation of enemy fighters shooting them down and they just fly straight and level. Or they're like fighting the T-1000 and are unbeatable and unwound able. I'm not naming sims but you all know which ones... ;-) In ROF the AI can't see through clouds and retreat when damaged so I'm sure that finds its way to BoS. I've got no problem shooting birds down in CloD... Don't know what you're on about... Maybe your aim is off, but it's easy to make short work of a Spit if you actually manage to place shots... AI is better, too. -shrug- AI in ROF is deplorable - nothing like turn fighting a Spad on the deck... Soooo realistic! /swoon Sorry, but DN has plenty of faults on its own and ROF is definitely no shining golden standard to hold up. Inaccurate FMs, ehh DMs, bad AI and lackluster content. DN has its pros (and its hastily ignored cons...) Everybody knows we don't get kickbacks for patting backs, right? 1
SharpeXB Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I've got no problem shooting birds down in CloD... Don't know what you're on about... Maybe your aim is off, but it's easy to make short work of a Spit if you actually manage to place shots... AI is better, too. -shrug-When I refered to AI zombies I meant Cliffs of Dover. You can fly right into a formation of enemy fighters. None of them react to you at all, just flying straight an level while you shoot them all down. On the other side of the equation is DCS P-51 vs Dora (before when it was only an AI opponent) then the AI was a T1000 that flys perfectly and doesn't react to having damage or anything. I think that's changed now. RoF/BoS AI are ok. What's great is to see them stall and spin. Ever seen an AI spin?
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 When I refered to AI zombies I meant Cliffs of Dover. You can fly right into a formation of enemy fighters. None of them react to you at all, just flying straight an level while you shoot them all down. On the other side of the equation is DCS P-51 vs Dora (before when it was only an AI opponent) then the AI was a T1000 that flys perfectly and doesn't react to having damage or anything. I think that's changed now. RoF/BoS AI are ok. What's great is to see them stall and spin. Ever seen an AI spin? Yeah, it's the DCS P-51D's only line of defense against a well driven Dora. Just saying... Nobody gets a cookie for staunch support and back-patting.
SharpeXB Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) Yeah, it's the DCS P-51D's only line of defense against a well driven Dora.That was back when the Dora was an AI plane. I think it's a more even fight now. Nobody gets a cookie for staunch support and back-patting.The staunch support is deserved. RoF is the best combat flight sim there is today. And BoS will be even better. Edited October 20, 2014 by SharpeXB 3
Leaf Posted October 21, 2014 Author Posted October 21, 2014 That was back when the Dora was an AI plane. I think it's a more even fight now. The staunch support is deserved. RoF is the best combat flight sim there is today. And BoS will be even better. Ermahgerd Sharpe ur such a fanboi!! BoS is a disgrace!¬
Elbows Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 I thoroughly enjoy RoF...and I admit I'm enjoying BoS though I was hoping it would be far more RoF in its lay-out etc. So the AI isn't that good...and the engine can't handle a hundred planes. Show me the alternative. There are heaps of things I'd change in BoS. However, I also understand we don't exactly have options, and RoF/BoS is pretty damn good. I'm not patting backs, I'm asking the nay-sayers for alternatives. I've stated my displeasure with some design decisions in BoS, but I've paid my money and will play the game as much as I can to enjoy it.
Tyberan Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 AI wingman are the worst, especially for ground attack aircraft. I either tell them to attack nearest ground target which does nothing, or I tell them to patrol for ground targets which usually means they fly about 10km away from the area of operations (ie ATTACK HERE waypoint) to shoot at an MG nest. Whilst I'm battling it out with arty, tanks and AAA. They also have penchant for flying into trees. I've noticed this happens when I take-off, if I dont take off perfectly and they overshoot me they try to stay in formation and for some reason like to become smears on the landscape. So I usually Autopilot take offs to stop this. Still love the game
SharpeXB Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Ermahgerd Sharpe ur such a fanboi!! BoS is a disgrace!¬That not a biased opinion. It's just a fact. The list of good, current, successful air combat sims is not a long one. In fact there's only 3 I'm aware of. Rise of Flight, BoS and parts of DCS. Mostly DCS is a study sim really, Flaming Cliffs I would consider a "combat sim" since it has a set of opposing aircraft and a theater. I would list RoF first simply because BoS is still in development. The rest of the products available in the combat flight sim genre are extremely dated and/or unsupported so they're not in the leauge that RoF is. Therefore RoF wins. Edited October 21, 2014 by SharpeXB
FuriousMeow Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 That not a biased opinion. It's just a fact. He was being facetious.
FuriousMeow Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Well, it is actually controlling a complex FM and not simplified like some others that have "hundreds of AI." It may not be challenging to people with hundreds of hours, but it certainly is for neophytes/newbies. You want great AI that performs like a human? Play online, AI like that doesn't exist anywhere and won't for a very long time - to have AI like that, it would have to be so complex that it would take a) years to build by a dedicated team focused solely on that and b) require its own parallel computer to run it. Considering the FM the AI is controlling, and that it is good against neophytes to average players - then it is a superior AI. Challenging AI is pointless when it is using a simplified FM, well - basically no FM at all. AI is easy to make when it doesn't have to have constraints - to appear human, and to use the same items that hinder our performance. It's very, very easy to make. It's hard to make AI that behaves human and is using the same FM as us. Just getting AI to not see through clouds has been a challenge, something that was figured out in DN a few years back. Edited October 21, 2014 by FuriousMeow 1
AbortedMan Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Just saying... Nobody gets a cookie for staunch support and back-patting. How do those CloD cookies taste, though? Amirite? 1
Leaf Posted October 21, 2014 Author Posted October 21, 2014 Well, it is actually controlling a complex FM and not simplified like some others that have "hundreds of AI." It may not be challenging to people with hundreds of hours, but it certainly is for neophytes/newbies. You want great AI that performs like a human? Play online, AI like that doesn't exist anywhere and won't for a very long time - to have AI like that, it would have to be so complex that it would take a) years to build by a dedicated team focused solely on that and b) require its own parallel computer to run it. Considering the FM the AI is controlling, and that it is good against neophytes to average players - then it is a superior AI. Challenging AI is pointless when it is using a simplified FM, well - basically no FM at all. I agree. When I first started this game "novice" AI was a proper challenge. Even now, after playing mostly multiplayer "ace" ai can be deadly. Espcially if they get on your six. Seasoned multiplayer veterans's opinions, with hundreds of hours of BoS, CloD and '46 complaining about "easy AI", should, in my opinion, be taken with a generous pinch of salt. If they're successful against human opponents, then of course they're going to be even more successful against AI.
FuriousMeow Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Yeah, I've had my wingmen AI just go right on ahead and do nothing. That appears to be an issue with mission design, giving the AI proper waypoint/targetting/etc settings. I know if you give them commands, they will mostly obey them and work fairly well. They'll try to rejoin me when my engine is shot out and I'm gliding home, not making a decision on their own to RTB because I'm damaged - but that is more of a mission parameter than the AI's routine. At some point those things have to be decided on, and either placed inside the AI's routine or in the mission parameters. If they go in both, things get all sorts of screwed up and wierd things happen. So to give more control over what the AI do, I think most of the mission type decisions are left up to the mission parameters while the fighting/bombing/maintaining flight/how to land/taxi are in the AI routines. Could the AI be made to think more, sure - and hopefully it will be evolved to do so. Edited October 21, 2014 by FuriousMeow
SharpeXB Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 But AI that won't take off, forgets what it's role is, crashes into the player or into each other, ignores commands issued to it, etc. etc I like the fact that the AI makes mistakes. They don't obey orders sometimes. They can collide with you or each other. They can shoot you by mistake. If they're perfect then they aren't realistic. You want great AI that performs like a human? Play onlineExactly! That what multiplayer is for, going up against a real person. You don't want AI that are zombies but also not the T1000If they were that good, no beginner or even experienced player would survive any missions at all. 1
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 I like the fact that the AI makes mistakes. They don't obey orders sometimes. They can collide with you or each other. They can shoot you by mistake. If they're perfect then they aren't realistic. Exactly! That what multiplayer is for, going up against a real person. You don't want AI that are zombies but also not the T1000 If they were that good, no beginner or even experienced player would survive any missions at all. *facepalm*
dburne Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) I'm so sick of people telling me I should play online. I'd rather chew off my own nipples. Lol, I am right there with you - except in my case I would rather chew nails I think... BTW, I am finding the AI in 1946 ( updated to 4.12.2) to be pretty darn good! Edited October 21, 2014 by dburnette 1
SharpeXB Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 BTW, I am finding the AI in 1946 ( updated to 4.12.2) to be pretty darn good! Even more amazing when you consider the system requirements for 1946 are probably exceeded by the average smartphone today :-P
=LD=Hethwill Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 I'm so sick of people telling me I should play online. I'd rather chew off my own nipples. Truth be told, and i am sure humans dislike to hear this, some bots are definitely better than some human counterparts.
KodiakJac Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) While I am critical of the current status of BOS, and disappointed, I will also say they did a really good job with ROF. I still have ROF installed and undoubtedly will be flying it again here very soon. Yes, I think RoF is just excellent. And the b-Career in RoF is very good also. Although the b-Career picked up a bug in the AI it generated for missions, the story is very immersive (and the AI bug could easily be fixed). I just assumed they would use the b-Career model for a career/campaign in BoS. The WWI genre is less popular than WWII and I hope they didn't confuse the lower interest in WWI with thinking they had taken the wrong approach with the RoF b-Career. The RoF b-Careeer is spot on for a flight sim! Of course, if you get someone like Pat Wilson to step in and do something like he did for RoF in BoS that is icing on the cake. But the RoF b-Career should be showcased in BoS! Edited October 22, 2014 by Bucksnort 1
sallee Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Indeed, they have been subject to almost 15 years of tweaking, between the original developers and the modders. Sorry, your nipples? 1
dburne Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Yes, I think RoF is just excellent. And the b-Career in RoF is very good also. Although the b-Career picked up a bug in the AI it generated for missions, the story is very immersive (and the AI bug could easily be fixed). I just assumed they would use the b-Career model for a career/campaign in BoS. Agreed. 1
SharpeXB Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Indeed, they have been subject to almost 15 years of tweaking, between the original developers and the modders.Indeed. The original IL-2 is a Frankensim... Allowed to live way beyond its time. :-/It's time for a new one!
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