New Poll: Which LW plane do you want in BoS?

[AX2]

 

Keep in mind that a simple comparison of milimeter for milimeter is not valid.  Not all armor is created equally. 

 

 

I have a 24 mm penetration at 100 meters and 13mm at 600 or 300 meters+ Explosive content going in to the il2 ,(MG 151/15 and MG 151/20)... against 4mm or 6mm armor in Il 2 plane..

Or nothing will make sense ? 

 

My Russian is so good, like Chome translator 

 

Sorry guys, I'm a fool, .. maybe is a big off topic, but I like to research a lot    -- Then  Forgive me please.  

 

But I found a lot of data...about IL2 , and I have more.

 

 

 

 

???????

Edited January 23, 2013 by Mustang

[II./JG27_Rich]

I always liked the F4 over the G2. With the rads closed downward trim and the throttle at about 88% I can get 480 kms out of it without it over heating. HSFX seems a little touchier than the ultra pack witch I've always like better than HSFX especially the external sound of the 109. I can always out run anything English Spitfire Mk.Vs  or American P-40s from the same era late 41- 42 accept P-38s. The huge advatage over the G2 is the rear view. It is excellent in an F4 and in a G2 you are blind. I hate it with a passion.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Richie

[6S.Manu]

Great research, Mustang!

Can you post all those info in a dedicated thread, under the "Historical Data" section?

[AX2]

Yes I have a lot of data   

[Crump]

I have a 24 mm penetration at 100 meters and 13mm at 600 or 300 meters+ Explosive content going in to the il2 ,(MG 151/15 and MG 151/20)... against 4mm or 6mm armor in Il 2 plane..

Or nothing will make sense ?

 

Of course we can make sense of it and I was not diminishing your efforts.

 

I was pointing out that armor, just like explosives, is not all the same. 

 

http://www.sugartech.co.za/steel/index.php

 

Just like in demolitions, you have to modify the amount of explosive one uses for a specific task based on the type of explosive.  It is called the Relative Effectiveness Factor or RE Factor.  You have to adjust penetration for the type of armor.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Crump

[AX2]

I understand, many thanks for the information.

I only spoke  about of the IL2 , My point was that the IL2 is a very hard plane, the most strong plane in BoS I think..

But there are many pictures of the damage caused by a single hit of  German ammo.

In air combat, it is easy to achieve many impacts, on a  single wing as an example.

If they can see, the damage caused on to a armored il2, they will you know what happens to other Russians and Germans aircraft.

When a piercing - explosive  ammo hits,  the end is close.

I have a bad concept

Because of "game" IL2 Sturmovik 1946, 

 

The P51  .50 machine guns shots beans, along many years

I saw  along many years many Russian fighters  Take 3 shots of MK 108 and the continue flying.

 

On the other hand I have this test, a single hit Mk 108 over Spitefire.

Even seeing the evidence .. they ignore all

 

 

 

Luckily all have a new Devs. team

 

 

Il2 vs MG 151 20 mm

 

 

 

I must add this source

 

http://www.airwar.ru/weapon/guns/shvak.html

 

And BF 109 wing vs ShVAK 20mm  ""ground test" I think.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2013 by Mustang

[Crump]

 

My point was that the IL2 is a very hard plane

 

 

Yes it was a very well armored aircraft and well designed for its mission.

 

 

 

When a piercing - explosive ammo hits, the end is close.

I have a bad concept

 

 

 

I don't think you have a bad concept at all.  FWIW, there were two basic theories on the best approach to destroying an airplane.

 

1.  Penetrate as deep into the aircraft as possible to destroy vital components. (Armor piercing/incendiary)

 

2.  Strip the structure supporting skin away so that the vital components no longer have an airplane to support them. (Explosive Ammunition)

 

The idea of the 30 mm Minegeschoss was not to penetrate the armor but rather deprive the armor of the airplane structure it was attached too.

[FlatSpinMan]

Interesting to read, Crump. I'd never given the matter any thought.

[ImPeRaToR]

We need mulitple choice

 

My picks would be:

 

Hs123 (never done before!)

Hs129

Yak with bubble canopy, either Yak9 or Yak1b(?)

 

P-39 and Fw190 could be released with the Kursk map pack *cough cough* :D

Edited January 27, 2013 by hq_ImPeRaToR

[Crump]

Interesting to read, Crump. I'd never given the matter any thought.         

 

I had never given it much thought either until I read the Krupp Waffenfabrik's study on the effectiveness of aircraft armament.  During the war, they did extensive research into finding the most efficient method of destroying an aircraft.   they felt the best approach was to deprive the aircraft of its structural support.

 

I would give up a copy of the report but it is over 300 pages.  I plan on putting most of my collection on PDF and making it available in the near future.

[76IAP-Black]

Sorry to say, am I the only one who likes to buy a complete game?! If there is an expansion, I will buy it too, but paying plane per plane is not the thing im looking for. I liked the way 1C was using during the il2 times. 

[BMA_FlyingShark]

P40 for me.

 

~S~

[BlitzPig_EL]

P40 for me.

 

~S~

 

A man of elevated tastes.

 

Be sure.

[SYN_Ricky]

Ju-88 !

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Sorry to say, am I the only one who likes to buy a complete game?! If there is an expansion, I will buy it too, but paying plane per plane is not the thing im looking for. I liked the way 1C was using during the il2 times. 

 

 

If you look back a couple of updates Loft said in response to a question

 

 

 

14) After the announcement of the list of aircraft, if there will not be a desired plane, is it possible in principle to make a "kickstart" of a unit and expect to integrate it into the game?

 

Don't worry. If the project is popular enough, it will always be developed and there will be new airplanes. But we would like to do all together in this project. Each aircraft is part of the theater, and so much a part of the gameplay. Therefore, the input sequence of aircraft in the game is just as important. But thanks for such a desire

 

 

So expansion packs with maps and appropriate aircaft ( andother objects - fingers crossed) are a real possibility unless I am interpreting his comments completely wrong.

 

Hmmm! Did I say P-40  with an appropriate North African ,  SW Pacific  or Northern Australia (Darwin) map please!

[NZTyphoon]

Hmmm! Did I say P-40  with an appropriate North African ,  SW Pacific  or Northern Australia (Darwin) map please!

I remember reading somewhere about a 49th FG P-40 that force-landed in Australia's far north - the pilot went to sleep and woke up to find a big, scary water buffalo scratching its backside on the rudder. And I think he was the same pilot who, once he had taken off,  discovered a snake had crawled into the cockpit and in the struggle to remove it he was bitten a couple of times - fortunately it wasn't venomous. Try replicating such incidents for a flight sim?  (Might have been in this

 

http://www.amazon.com/Protect-Avenge-Schiffer-Military-Aviation/dp/0887407501)

[heinkill]

My grandfather was an RAAF fitter, and he described a flight he made in a 5th airforce B17 in '43 in Townsville. The machine was called Miss EMF ('Every Mornin' Fixit') because for every hour it flew, it took an hour to repair it. On a flight out of Mackay they had to make an emergency landing after a wild pig in the cargo bay got loose and went on a rampage, including a visit to the cockpit. Don't ask me why they were transporting wild pigs. They were crazy boys.

 

Anyway, back to the topic.

 

No votes for this little beauty? The 'Raptor'...flew for Hungary.

 

 

I found it referred to in this interesting paper on Stalingrad. Looks like an Italian P-47!

 

http://spitfirevsbf109.com/files/LuftwaffeStalingrad.pdf

Edited February 4, 2013 by heinkill

[rolikiraly]

Hungarian (or Romanian, Italian) air force would be a special nice addition, but i doubt it will happen: the devs spoke only about soviet and german planes.

To be honest i think many (non-European) customers don't even know what's Hungary or Romania so it might not be the best decision (in terms of income) to include them  

[NZTyphoon]

Hungarian (or Romanian, Italian) air force would be a special nice addition, but i doubt it will happen: the devs spoke only about soviet and german planes.

To be honest i think many (non-European) customers don't even know what's Hungary or Romania so it might not be the best decision (in terms of income) to include them  

Sadly, this is probably true: it would be good to have the likes of the IAR 80/81 included, but better to concentrate on well known aircraft that were actually at Stalingrad. Perhaps there's some hope for expansion packs including the slightly off-beat?

[Volkoff]

I would like the P-39n, if it was used in the Battle of Stalingrad. If and when the P-39n is included, I would like the P-39n to have the Soviet modifications, such as the removal of the wing guns, used to improve the roll performance of the P-39n.

                                       

                                              Misha James

 

Edited March 12, 2013 by MishaJames

[FlatSpinMan]

Beautiful picture!

[Volkoff]

I know I already mentioned the Yak1b, but this audience seems pretty luke warm to her. I don't know the representativeness of the online posters, but just in case...If the Yak 1 is so utterly unpopular with the Western FW 190 or bust crowd, maybe the development team might consider the Yak 1b as an included plane as part of the initial release Western release of BOS or as an included ride in an expansion add-on, instead of considering it as a potential separate in store add-on plane? In Russia it might sell well that way, but it may be the case, though not necessarily, that the West is very fixated on high performing/ high lethality Nazi planes. I am worried that there might be a situation, as in Rise of Flight, where we have a 200 hp SPAD XIII, but we don't have a 235 hp version for use against the DVIIf,f or the late war period. The Yak 1b is a significant Yak type, maybe not at this battle, but significant. I would hate to get stuck with the rearward viability and lower performance of the razorback Yak 1, in situations where the Yak 1b would be common place, just because the YAk 1b would not sell well enough in a store, when compared to other rides, there are other priorities, or whatever potential reason. For sure, this forum could be utterly unrepresentative of the audience in general and if that is the case, then it is not an issue. As for this forum posting audience, I would expect this crew to continue to lobby for a FW 190, try to get their hands on every high performing Nazi plane they can, maybe ask for a US P-40 or Italian plane, for variety,  then, immediately after getting those planes, to suggest that the team now focus on North Africa and the Mediterranean, since we can always get back to Soviet planes, like the Yak 1b, after all of the real money makers are made.....yada, yada, yada. I could be wrong, but would anyone take up the bet?

 

 I really hope that this crew is not representative of the audience in general, because I would hate to have all the multiplayer maps be filled with two to three players flying razorback YaK 1's, facing off against sixty or seventy players flying BF 109 G2's and FW 190's.

 

Edited March 14, 2013 by MishaJames

[BlitzPig_EL]

 

 I really hope that this crew is not representative of the audience in general, because I would hate to have all the multiplayer maps be filled with two to three players flying razorback YaK 1's, facing off against sixty or seventy players flying BF 109 G2's and FW 190's.

 

 

I am at a bit of a loss here Misha, as almost every post of your's is about flying the 109.   So you say you will only fly the 109, but are worried about there being too many 109s on servers?

 

Odd to say the least.

[Volkoff]

I am at a bit of a loss here Misha, as almost every post of your's is about flying the 109.   So you say you will only fly the 109, but are worried about there being too many 109s on servers?

 

Odd to say the least.

 

Actually, I intend to sim fly exclusively for the VVS, as a Yak 1 specialist. I intend to use a P-39, when and if a P-39 is made available; as I pointed out in this  thread, (below) the other day.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/topic/236-which-side-do-you-play-in-bos-multiplayer/

 

I have also posted about my interest in the P-39, the La- 5, the Yak-9, etc...I will not be spending any serious amount of time using the BF- 109, as there seems to be a great number of persons already interested in BF-109's. Since I am going to focus only on the VVS,  I do not intend to buy BF-109 add-ons or FW 190 add-ons. I will not buy planes I don't intend to use on a regular basis. If there is a German plane inculded in the initial release, and there is a real need to balance teams, I may cross sides and use the base level German plane, but otherwise I have no need of German planes and I won't buy any, as seperate add-ons. I learned that lesson in Rise of Flight, as I have a great many add-ons I do not  frequently use, but I constantly use my SPAD VII and SPAD XIII. If I only had the SPAD VII and SPAD XIII I would have about as much fun as I do owning all the current plane add-ons. From now on, I intend to stop buying ROF add-ons and not buy IL2 BOS add-ons, unless I am sure that I will use the add-on on a regular basis.

Edited March 15, 2013 by MishaJames

[BlitzPig_EL]

Apologies are in order.  I had assumed that since you were talking a strict Boom and Zoom approach that you were talking about the 109.

 

You do realize that most/all of the Russian aircraft are not as capable in the BnZ role as the German aircraft are?  Most sim pilots who fly the 109 fly it like you fly the SPAD.

So, if you take a Yak upstairs for the energy fight you like, you will no doubt encounter a 109, and at that altitude the Russian aircraft will be at a distinct disadvantge to the 109.

 

All that said, I too will fly primarily for the VVS, unless balancing is necessary.

[FlatSpinMan]

In Il2 I hardly ever flew the Russian birds. I came in at Pacific Fighters so there were already a lot of ETO planes, and being most recognizable to me, I flew them (plus I have a thing for LW paint schemes). However, of the campaigns I have really enjoyed playing, two were flying for the VVS. Probably the Soviet plane I've flown the most is the Rata.

This time around I think I'll spend a bit more time learning the quirks of the Yaks and Laggs of the world.

Dirty secret time - I still mix them up.

[gavagai]

Apologies are in order.  I had assumed that since you were talking a strict Boom and Zoom approach that you were talking about the 109.

 

You do realize that most/all of the Russian aircraft are not as capable in the BnZ role as the German aircraft are?  Most sim pilots who fly the 109 fly it like you fly the SPAD.

So, if you take a Yak upstairs for the energy fight you like, you will no doubt encounter a 109, and at that altitude the Russian aircraft will be at a distinct disadvantge to the 109.

 

All that said, I too will fly primarily for the VVS, unless balancing is necessary.

 

LoL, you are not familiar with MJ.  His two biggest aversions are: 1) Flying something slow that is forced to dogfight; 2) Flying something German (even in WW1 Rise of Flight).

 

But I suspect that all of us in the "whichever side has less" group are going to be flying a lot of Russian aircraft.

[Volkoff]

Apologies are in order.  I had assumed that since you were talking a strict Boom and Zoom approach that you were talking about the 109.

 

You do realize that most/all of the Russian aircraft are not as capable in the BnZ role as the German aircraft are?  Most sim pilots who fly the 109 fly it like you fly the SPAD.

So, if you take a Yak upstairs for the energy fight you like, you will no doubt encounter a 109, and at that altitude the Russian aircraft will be at a distinct disadvantge to the 109.

 

All that said, I too will fly primarily for the VVS, unless balancing is necessary.

 

No apologies are in order. It is hard to keep track of everything posted. Introductions are in order. I am Misha James. Hmm, yes the Yak 1 will come up short in climb and dive, when up against the F-4 and the G-2. To catch an F-4 or G-2 in a dive, I have to use geometry and make up for my lack of speed by taking a shorter route to cut his machine off. Still, I would be open to a drag and bag or one of those pretty high, low, in, out, gems, plus my fixating on a guy already onto me, assuming he is d diving in response to me, is not going to win any pony shows and he can always out climb me, coming back up, if I fail to arc his machine as he pulls out of the dive. I don't want to get into a flaps out, flap up, with one of those Germans, either. I am also not looking to boom and zoom, so much as boom and leave. I figure that I may need to work closely with another sim pilot, to develop a cohesive section, but not to get into mix ups, simply for mutual protection and mutual situational awareness building. I will focus on pure ambush attacks, such as picking off a guy when everyone is mixing it up and situational awareness is out the window. While I will certainly be outclassed upstairs, except in turn, maybe, I intend to go waaaaaaay upstairs. =)

 

I doubt very many Russians will climb out where I am going and I doubt very many Germans will either. The Germans could get on to my climbing out, if I flew under a single profile, but I will change my profile, over and over, so there is no fear of someone going, 'Oh that guy, let us climb and wait for his arrival!' =) See, I figure the Germans will have a climb and dive advantage down low and up to medium altitude, so they will want to work closely in sections and drag the Russians down, then climb over the Russians and tag team the Russians, playing the high, low, in, out game. Some will work alone and they will scissor their way to the deck, whip their flaps out, and use their super slow better handling machines to spin a Yak into the ground. If the Germans want the IL2s and if they want the vast majority of the VVS side human players, to add to their kill streak, the Germans have to come down. Even if they are working on teamspeak, when in an intense furball, they can only keep track of so much, and after they are all committed, and in the mix, going high, low, or super slow, what are the odds of a Yak 1 section, practically orbiting the Moon, coming on down, and picking one of them off, then exiting the battle at extremely high speed?

 

Edited March 15, 2013 by MishaJames

[Crump]

MishaJames,

 

I think it is just a given that the Yak's will be in the game.  They are really nice airplanes and I share your enthusiam for them.  I don't care for the "red vs blue" mentality of gaming.  All of these airplanes have more in common performance wise than differences.  Unfortunately most of the players tend to concentrate on very tiny portions of the envelope that represent unsustainable, limited, overboost conditions to form their opinions.  Equally unfortunate is the limitations of computer's in past games do not allow for the complexity of engine management, flight skills, stability and control characteristics, or atmospheric conditions that greatly effect ones ability to achieve such performance.

 

The VVS certainly has to get the award for "most improved" air force of the war.  Stalin's purges both helped and hampered their design bureau's resulting in some of the best aeronautical engineering of the war despite the handicaps of domestic fuel quality and engine power.

 

That late war Yaks I have always found fascinating from an engineering standpoint.  They embody the development of fighter manuverability with the ability to sustain enormous load factors at high velocity in comparison to other contemparary fighter designs.   
 

[csThor]

IMO the Yak-1b would be a deviation from historical realism and relative importance as it was introduced and tested during the latter stages of the Battle of Stalingrad. It was not the dominant or even a numerically relevant version, yet. That came later, in spring and summer 1943, when a good part of the VVS fighter force was equipped with the model (along the Yak-7b and Yak-9 models that emerged). The most numerous and important version would be the Yak-1 Model 1942. 

[707shap_Srbin]

IMO the Yak-1b would be a deviation from historical realism and relative importance as it was introduced and tested during the latter stages of the Battle of Stalingrad. It was not the dominant or even a numerically relevant version, yet. That came later, in spring and summer 1943, when a good part of the VVS fighter force was equipped with the model (along the Yak-7b and Yak-9 models that emerged). The most numerous and important version would be the Yak-1 Model 1942. 

 

Yak-1b, front tests were in two regiments: 1 on Kalinin front (Center), 1 at Stalingrad front (South).

 

176 iap (283 iad, 16 VA of Stalingrad Front) flew YaK-1b from 04.01.43 to 2.2.43.

 

UPD:

 

Some Il-2 photos. All these are RTB a/c.

 

And for sweet: 37mm in wing root.

 

More here. And here.

Edited March 15, 2013 by =KAG=Bersrk

[Volkoff]

We need mulitple choice

 

My picks would be:

 

Hs123 (never done before!)

Hs129

Yak with bubble canopy, either Yak9 or Yak1b(?)

 

P-39 and Fw190 could be released with the Kursk map pack *cough cough* :D

 

Hmmm, I wonder if the VVS had many Yak 9's with bubble canopies? Maybe the VVS had Yak 7's field modded with many, if not all, of the future Yak 9 touches, like a bubble canopy? Now, the Yak 1's are razorbacks, so unless the VVS field modded some of the Yak 1's,  the 1's should be razorbacks. I wonder if the Unified team will include field mods for Yaks, like the removal of the mg's and bubble canopies?

Edited March 15, 2013 by MishaJames

[Volkoff]

LoL, you are not familiar with MJ.  His two biggest aversions are: 1) Flying something slow that is forced to dogfight; 2) Flying something German (even in WW1 Rise of Flight).

 

But I suspect that all of us in the "whichever side has less" group are going to be flying a lot of Russian aircraft.

 

Actually, when Rise of Flight first came out, and I had zero flight sim multiplayer experience, I was at first hooked on the Mercedes DVII. The DVII was easy to sim fly, newbie friendly. Back in the day, I routinely faced off against the SPAD XIII's and eventually the SE5a's. Many of the guys sim flying against me were highly experienced IL2 sim pilots, and they held all of the cards the BF 109 guys seem to hold; like superior climb, dive, and superior forward air speed. I look at the Yak 1 as a return to my roots, in a way.

 

[Volkoff]

Lots of time in the IL2 for me I predict.   Also my old time BlitzPig wing man Voidcracker and I will no doubt see many sorties in the LaGG-3 as well.

 

Though if the Mig-3 makes it in, it will be hard to resist the temptation of that gorgeous race horse.l 

 

+1 A Mig-3 would be great, too. It would make for a really nice ambush machine, given that it performs so well way up high. You can just come in way over the fight, dive right in, slash at a plane, and extend  away. The Mig- 3 will be one of the VVS planes I will get a great deal of use out of, if it makes it in IL2: BOS.

 

Edited March 17, 2013 by MishaJames

[CCG_Pips]

I repeat what said a lot of simmers:

 

JU-52 is probably one of the most important plane for the Stalingrad battle!!!!!   without JU-52, the air supply missions for German 6th Army would be impossible and this game should become a simple constant dogfight!!! with no any startegy....beeeuurrkkkkk!!!...................... I should be no interested with!!!

 

So, please dev team....think about the JU-52!!!! (AI...at least or flyable)................  thank you

[FlatSpinMan]

I have no inside information but I'd always assumed there would be a Ju52, at least as an AI. Gosh, I hope there is.

[heinkill]

I have no inside information but I'd always assumed there would be a Ju52, at least as an AI. Gosh, I hope there is.

 

Has to be. Absolutely. Flyable not needed imho, limited gameplay to be had in driving a truck into a minefield. Fun maybe for one mission, to see if you can, but not worth building whole cockpit for.

[Volkoff]

While I want a Yak 9 in game, I am now wondering if the Yak 7 would be a better fit for the time period, instead of the Yak 9. Anyone have info on the numbers of Yak 7's vs Yak 9's, at the Battle of Stalingrad?  Was the Yak 9 being fielded in very limited numbers, as may have been the case with the Yak 1b?

Edited March 18, 2013 by MishaJames

[707shap_Srbin]

I repeat what said a lot of simmers:

 

JU-52 is probably one of the most important plane for the Stalingrad battle!!!!!   without JU-52, the air supply missions for German 6th Army would be impossible and this game should become a simple constant dogfight!!! with no any startegy....beeeuurrkkkkk!!!...................... I should be no interested with!!!

 

So, please dev team....think about the JU-52!!!! (AI...at least or flyable)................  thank you

 

He111 will be as transport AND bomber aircraft.

 

Ju52 - flew only in night (from early december, because of high losses). Had no bombs.

He111 - flew on day manly. Had bombs and flew as bombers supporting  "Wintergewitter" in december 42.

[EdwardGale]

Macchi 200, obviously