Are we our own worst enemies ?

[chris455]

You knock around the usual forums for a decade or two, lurking, reading. You start to accrue the simming gear you need. You go through two or three iterations of TIR. You join a squadron. You watch things ebb and flow. But you're always coming back to the forums, reading following what's happening. You follow with no little incredulity the main arguments (trim on a slider, RoF's revenue policy, the almost disaster of PF, the Grumann copyright fiasco, etc). You watch every moment of every vid on the second '46 CD. You muse on modelling atmospheric thingies. Eddies. Draughts. And yo come back to the forums. You even grow sort of fond of some of the more eccentric or iconoclastic voices (where are you RBJ?). You follow the back and forth. Trim tabs and undercarriage. Radiator drag...

 

You surf the hysteria of a "cracked" IL2. You have your heart embarrassingly broken by Spitgirl and all that. You fret and worry about the future of simming. In short you think you've seen it all.

 

But no, you haven't. Boy, you haven't.

 

Nothing new under the sun. And yes, we most assuredly are our own worst enemy.

Swallow, you at least could have let me know  a priori that you were going to post my biography here-  

[KodiakJac]

You have your heart embarrassingly broken by Spitgirl and all that.

 

 

Spitgirl was a true story related by a BoB pilot to Oleg Maddox.

[216th_Peterla]

 I sadly agree with the OP.

Too much negativity throwed to ourselves and mostly to the devs this last weeks.

[FlatSpinMan]

I get the sentiment but I don't know that this is a discussion we need to be having right now. Threads that comment on the behaviour of each other do not tend to end well.

I'll keep it open for now.

[fjacobsen]

I just starteted this thread inorder to have people thinking about whats happening.

 

I´m not fond of the unlocks either, and think that they should be necessary in the campaign only and not for QMB or MP.

 

For me it´s not the end of this game whether it will change or not.

But seeing the last weeks negative comments over the same subject again and agian in various forms, definitly doesn´t help.

I´m sure  that the devs now know that the majority of the early acces members doesn´t like the idea, I just think that the devs doesn´t have time to change this before release.

 

Offcourse we are paying customers and we do have rights.

But first and foremost we are still "Playing" a pre-release version. We did not pay for the game as susch - we payed for early acces with all it´s faults, bugs and maybe wrong decisions.

 

Flightsims are a niche - actually very small and getting smaller.

It´s not like with the Battlefield franchise where the fact that 20% of the potential customers doesn´t like the next version. There is still enough money in that business to make it worthwhile.

 

No business guy with a sane sense for business wold ever invest money in the developement of a flightsim. The crowd is simply too demanding and the customerbase too small.

Those who do invest are Flightsims addicts too. They do it because they like it and by the same time know that they won´t become rich.

 

I´m not petting the team.

It´s ok to tell our opinion and alse setup some demnds, but we should better keep them reasonable.

IL-2 BOS might not be 100% perfect on release day and probobly not a ½ year later. But just like ROF it will mature.

Unlocks might be given up , more aircraft added and gameplay enhanced. With the full mission builder we will be able to either make our own historic correct missions (or at least how the historians tell) and smart guys might start building 3rd party campaigns.

 

Right now the way we act does not further the motivation of the devs.

 

The griefs about the unlock system has clearly been forwarded to the devs, so they definitly are aware and most probably will look into it later.

 

They have actually listened to the FM issues reported and made changes.

 

So while still being critic and voice that critc, better also turn back and support them by telling whats actually good with this sim.

 

I think both customers and devs will win going down that road.

 

 

FinnJ

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

You knock around the usual forums for a decade or two, lurking, reading. You start to accrue the simming gear you need. You go through two or three iterations of TIR. You join a squadron. You watch things ebb and flow. But you're always coming back to the forums, reading following what's happening. You follow with no little incredulity the main arguments (trim on a slider, RoF's revenue policy, the almost disaster of PF, the Grumann copyright fiasco, etc). You watch every moment of every vid on the second '46 CD. You muse on modelling atmospheric thingies. Eddies. Draughts. And yo come back to the forums. You even grow sort of fond of some of the more eccentric or iconoclastic voices (where are you RBJ?). You follow the back and forth. Trim tabs and undercarriage. Radiator drag...

 

You surf the hysteria of a "cracked" IL2. You have your heart embarrassingly broken by Spitgirl and all that. You fret and worry about the future of simming. In short you think you've seen it all.

 

But no, you haven't. Boy, you haven't.

 

Nothing new under the sun. And yes, we most assuredly are our own worst enemy.

^^^

That... Yes we are.... And ONLY RBJ can save us! Amen.

[KodiakJac]

I´m not fond of the unlocks either, and think that they should be necessary in the campaign only and not for QMB or MP.

 

Unlocks are a feature of WarThunder also, and the more I think about it I think the unlocks should be moved to MP to compete with WarThunder, and the SP Campaign should be made in the traditional role playing fashion without unlocks.  MP is a smaller market segment for flight sims so they can experiment with unlocks in MP and keep the SP Campaign in the tradition of the IL-2 series.

[nynek]

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4085&p=42434&viewfull=1#post42434

 

And I'm done with posting on this forum.

 

nynek

[FlatSpinMan]

Okay, see you later then. 

[=69.GIAP=RADKO]

I'm not entirely sure everyone is to blame for being "our own worst enemy". There are many here that criticize the development constructively but of course  people's frustrations can get the better of them. Then there are others who actually ruin a perfectly mature conversation with ridiculous sentiments that something a 10 year old would say. This is what infuriates me the most as it does make the devs look at us in a different light, especially those first childish actions that some took on metacritic.  

 

What we must remember however is we can not sit here and blame ourselves. The PR from the devs in the last couple (which has been deleted) of weeks has left some of us feeling a little deflated. 

 

A lot of us have some very legitimate questions towards the decision to implement a unlock system to a very flight sim like game. Slapping on such a system does not instantly reap success. The game itself has to attract the right kind of people and unfortunately from a business perspective this game does not attract people with a attention spam of a fish.  You do not get instant easily acquired gratification from BoS like you do in World of Tanks, War Thunder and World of Planes. This is why many find the unlock system in BoS contradictory to it's own gaming environment.  

  

RoF was never going to be a huge success purely because of the era. Imagine if War Thunder was based around WWI, can you honestly imagine the same numbers being attracted to it? It's precisely why I feel that BoS is going to have much success because is will already attract a much larger audience than RoF ever did purely because it's WWII. There was nothing wrong with how the devs developed RoF, they did a grand job, it was just in the wrong era if they wanted crowds. 

I just hope they're not thinking BoS would have the same fate if it had continued with a similar business model as RoF.  

 

So, yes I can understand peoples frustrations and I certainly don't think we're our own worse enemy, not all of us anyway.

[senseispcc]

There are many games with aa unlock system to give you one ARMA3 is one and it works fine you do not even feel it and here in this game for a new player not one how has allready played it for so many hours it shall also feel normal and logical I am not for  it but it does not ennoy me to have it that is maybe because 99% of the time I fly only one type of plane and after four hours of playing the game all its updates are unlocked!  

Edited October 18, 2014 by senseispcc

[BigPickle]

We are supposed to be adults in the genre, not angry kids. I'm guilty of not always being my best either, but for everyone's sake the bickering, attacking and constant melodramatic nonsense needs to stop or this genre will definitely die

 

 

"The customer is always right", to coin a phrase. Coin being the opperative word.

Only bad products would kill industry, not bad customers and It takes a long time to earn a good reputation and a second to destroy it.

[FlatSpinMan]

To simplify my collective thoughts on the matter. They've literally downgraded the community to the level of a donkeys. IL-2 is now the Pinocchio's Pleasure Island.

 

Seriously, longevity only simulates a Donkey and a Carrot!

Well, that clarifies things.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

Worst enemies...? Topic titles and threads like this one...perfect 'light-blue-touchpaper-and-stand-well-back'rehashing-and-resurrecting-of-the-last-few-days...like we need more of that.

 

Great, let's have another autopsy and re-stating of various arguments and entrenched positions.

 

If I hear one more 'state of the nation' type post whereby someone gets on a high horse of some hue and pontificates about the earthly failures of the nay-sayers, I'm going to scream.....and I'm largely on the side of the devs and law and order.

 

If people want to air grievances about unlocks, or FMs, or anything else, let them. It shows active engagement, an opinion, and is their right. I have no problem with it. At least it shows engagement with substance...and nott just some clap-trap about 'your fellow man' or 'your fellow simmer' or all that 'look at my gravitas and grown-uppity-ness' nonsense.

 

People vary...big deal.

Isn't he just expressing his opinion as you are? Or am I missing something here?

 

Chief

Edited October 18, 2014 by -NW-ChiefRedCloud

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 3 planes to unlock in game: Bf109F-4, Bf109G-2 and Fw190A-3..all others done. Urgh

[unreasonable]

My take on this, leaving aside for a moment the specific question of unlocks, is that the "community" believes that it has some element of ownership over the genre of flight sims in general, and their particular favourite du jour, while the producers who finance the product and dictate policy see the games as "entertainment products" that must be judged on commercial criteria.

 

Ironically in the case of BoS it is mostly western simmers insisting on their community rights and a Russian developer insisting on the iron laws of capitalism.

 

The feeling of community ownership is understandable as it results from the fact that so many hobbyists devote much time to provide missions, skins and other materials that enhance the core product, however, given how tight fisted most flight simmers seem to be when it comes to paying for games that give them hundreds of hours of pleasure, it is hardly surprising that the producers insist that the design is intended for a mass market appeal rather than a niche of enthusiasts. They need the volume to support the development.

 

If we really want a niche product that makes no concessions to the "arcade" market, we will have to pay ten times, or even one hundred times as much per unit, or go to a subscription basis.

[Jaws2002]

This thread reminds me of the "Cultural revolution" in China....

[Guest deleted@30725]

The unlock system is just a state of modern games. It seems as if this is something developers need to put in, but even Doom had an unlock system of sorts. All first person shooters have had this, but not quite so in your face and normally for a reason or purpose to help a story.

 

I love an awesome single player game with a good story, awesome voice acting and missions where I feel like I'm helping progress that story. I like to play it once and then feel that it was money well spent. I'll re-play it again in some months.

 

I'm not really sure what the point of an unlock system is in BOS. I'm not quite sure what the point of this campaign is when broken down as it's just a series of randomly generated missions with our all time favourite friend 'XP' thrown in for good measure.

 

Why am I then forced to play the campaign to get the unlocks for multiplayer. Just because I have 2x 20mm cannons does not mean I want to use them all the time, but if I don't have them and I fancy playing with them for 1 hour then I've gotta play the campaign.

 

A lot of work goes into video games, but the campaign feels more like a set of randomly generated missions than a campaign in what I imagine the classic sense of it is. It's a pretty solid and fun way to play BOS 'offline' in single player, but thinking that an unlock system will make the player play more when the producer has already got the money seems silly when on saturday afternoon players might want to log in with several friends and play online and choose the weapon 'upgrades' they want to use. Granted some of your friends may relish the challenge and skill of using the 'stock' plane.

 

Do all games really need a carrot on a stick. Are we all getting so bored that we can't play a game for a while, playing it on its merits as a good and fun game rather than having to unlock everything just so you can have fun playing it or to get bored when all the unlocks are unlocked. 

 

Maybe I'm just turning into an old timer. Perhaps this is what the kids want.

 

A good game stands the test of time and the degradation of its once cutting edge graphics. A good game will always be good.

 

Either way the unlocks don't bother me as I've been playing the planes stock. People are still playing cliffs of dover though.   :scratch_one-s_head:I guess that must mean it was a good game.

 

We are not our own worst enemies. The gaming industry is just trying to work on gimmicks to keep people playing. I think people are getting sick of having stuff hidden behind an unlock or pay wall when it seems to serve no purpose.

Edited October 18, 2014 by deleted@30725

[Rjel]

The customer is always right only to a point. When the customer becomes abusive, rude and threatening, then that customer looses his creditability. None of us would stand for the behavior of some in real life I've read lately. I certainly wouldn't and I seriously doubt those who spew that kind of attitude react well when it's directed towards them. In fact, I'm sure we've all run across that type of person in real life who always acts like a spoiled child but yet wants everyone to respect them. And honestly, most businesses would rather loose a bad customer than have to deal with their B.S. repeatedly.

[BFsSmurfy]

But normally the customer gets an answer to the question, if there is no answer despite repeatedly asking then the customer may well get annoyed and on occasion lose (note lose not loose) their temper. The MP community is almost to a man against unlocks yet when we ask "can they not be applied to MP servers" we get NO answer. Hence the annoyance. It`s simple and the devs have been really good at answering questions for 80 Dev diaries, the last 3 have been an avoid the question mission regards the MP unlocks. We even get a poll asking us what we think, 94% express an opinion against unlocks to one degree or another, then the OP tells us it might count for nothing.....honestly you couldn`t write that sort of farce.

Edited October 18, 2014 by BFsSmurfy

[Rjel]

(note lose not loose)

 

 

Nutz..... and one can "loose" credibility through bad grammar too. So much for proof reading!!!

[BFsSmurfy]

Nutz..... and one can "loose" credibility through bad grammar too. So much for proof reading!!!

 

 

No worries mate, I read mine over a couple of times to make sure I didn`t give you an instant "have that smart arse" chance. I like civil discussions with a bit of humour.

 

Ps the last word of the first sentence  should be to not too lol. I do online English lessons for free.

Edited October 18, 2014 by BFsSmurfy

[Rjel]

This is what I call an intolerant attitude. Business is business - it's not a business when you loose custom over personal issues.

 

I disagree. Have you ever had someone get right in your face in a business setting over something trivial? It's a no win situation from a business standpoint. No matter what you do, you aren't going to please someone like that. You have top stand there and take it. No one needs to deal repeatedly with that.

 

As far as the questions not being answered about the unlocks, who knows? Maybe there is internal discussion going on that we aren't privy to. We don't know yet where it is headed.

[BFsSmurfy]

I`m joking with Rjel and I`ve sent a PM to that end. Read into my post what you like my friend Rjel took it as intended. And it`s their intent not there touche old bean.

[Rjel]

@BFsSmurfy

 

Just ignore him mate!  No one really cares for the grammar police. It only shows there vindictive intent and how they try to personalize matters over such trivial things. 

What? If that's directed towards me, I think you might need to re-read those posts bud.

[BFsSmurfy]

He`s aiming it at me Rjel, anyway I`m happy knowing I had no malicious intent just trying to start a bit of online banter and I could see from your response you read my real intent. Game-over anyway I`m orf ta watch da futball on me tele.

[ImPeRaToR]

Bombs for fighters? Huge bombs for bombers.. the extra gunpods för the 190 (that I were 90% certain where the standard loadout, prove me wrong?) it have enough fire power as it is, but still.. yeah it might now even been close to Stalingrad at the time but that is another matter.

They were an optional Rüstsatz until the A-4 version where they became factory-default. Have a look at pictures of any A-3s, doesn't matter of it's channel coast or JG54 in the winter of 42/43, you will have a hard time finding stubby FF/M barrels. Even on A-4 they seem to have been rare based on pictures.

 

The B-24 or B-17 (whichever entered europe first) is basically what triggered the serial-installment of the outer 20ies.

Edited October 18, 2014 by ImPeRaToR

[Leaf]

I can't really take this "the community are being ignored" argument seriously anymore, because it's clearly bollocks. The FW 190's corrections and offline mode being a case in point.

If it's easy and fast enough to fix before release, the devs will do it. We've seen that.

But it's simply unreasonable to expect them to change fundamental parts of the game, just to please us, within a few weeks. They don't have the time, or the money to do so. 
Were some of the decisions made a bad idea? I think so. But we've got to move on from that now, because it is what it is. We can't expect U-turn after U-turn this close to release. Let's just continue supporting the game to make it as good as we all hope it can be.

It worked for RoF, afterall, and that is all we have can go by right now. Rise of Flight wasn't perfect back when I bought it at release, and now look at it.

 

What happens in the months after release is really going to show whether the devs will listen to us. 

[dburne]

I can't really take this "the community are being ignored" argument seriously anymore, because it's clearly bollocks. The FW 190's corrections and offline mode being a case in point.

 

If it's easy and fast enough to fix before release, the devs will do it. We've seen that.

But it's simply unreasonable to expect them to change fundamental parts of the game, just to please us, within a few weeks. They don't have the time, or the money to do so. 

 

 

I do agree , Han asked for info on the 190 , some folks provided it, and he made some changes. Kudos to them for doing this and listening to the community.

 

I would also say though, if anything has been shown with the events of the last couple of weeks, is their current implementation of both the SP and MP modes, are not popular. Heck even the poll Jason is running shows that. Obviously they are concerned about the initial push back by many, and how it will reflect on the finished product once it is released, when those reviews will be allowed to be posted once again.

 

Only the developers can answer as to what if anything they might do, and whether or not they have the time or money to do so. Any conjecture on our part is just an uneducated guess.

And after all, they have surprised us before.

[ST_ami7b5]

Let's calm down

[BFsSmurfy]

Oops, busted lol.

 

The lack of communication I refer to is over 1 point that is vital to MP mission making nothing else, as a whole they are doing a good job and I`ve been supportive from the off. Anyway one of the devs/team asked me where I`d like the answer to that question posting yesterday evening and proffered a destination , so I guess it`s watch the forum and see if it`s forthcoming.

[id123]

I am not worried about the unlocks, now I will have to put more time into the game to get them! Which will only help me as even though I have been doing Flight Sims since the 80's I have not done much MP. This one however made(forced) me into getting a proper broadband connection. I been online for years on a mobile dongle... the cost was horrible £15 for 3 gig. So thanks to BOS you have made a great financial impact in my life lol. I out off the dark ages now...

[Rjel]

If, it was directed at you... You'd of seen your name clearly stated in a quotes like I've done here. You may have been a reference - but as for “directed”. No! I can see how you'd jump to that conclusion and although it's off topic - I suggest you don't. Attempting to make it personal isn't going to score you a gold star.

lol. Okay! Man and I really wanted me a gold star too (to, two) also.

[Dutch]

Yes we are. It seems that any pre-ordering or 'pledging' generates an entitlement mindset. i.e. 'You've got my money, now do what I want'. We should stop paying in advance for anything.

 

But as regards Stalingrad, having just played the first few campaign missions after a total break from flight sims, I think the wrong comparisons are being made. Instead of comparing it with 1946/ultrapak/hsfx, Rise of Flight, or even Cliffs of Dover, maybe we should compare it to the original IL2 Sturmovik of 2001.

Playing those first missions in the Stalingrad campaign took me back to when I didn't know how to 'Fly', and in the original IL2 it took me 20-odd attempts to shoot down that pesky Fw189 recon plane in my MiG. It reminded me that the first missions of the IL2 'bomber' campaign were tutorials, and it made me think that if someone is new to this genre of games, this is actually a good way to learn.

 

As a die-hard, I think it's facile that I can't have trims on an axis, so the three trim wheels on my G-940 are redundant. Also, in the first combat tutorial, I was diving down head-on to the Stuka and a 1sec full deflection shot blew him out of the sky. Too easy, but for a newcomer, very satisfying.

 

I've never played 'WarThunder', but if the combat flight sim genre is to attract new blood, from what I've seen so far Stalingrad seems to do a good job of introduction. Multiplayer-wise I'll reserve judgement.

 

In short, instead of people looking for an advancement on what has gone before, maybe they should look at this game as a new start, and adjust their expectations accordingly. Maybe tomorrow I'll feel the exact opposite. Time will tell.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 It is like a swinging door, goes both ways IMHO. Any dev can follow a roadmap, but if there is no room for flexibility, the customer will react to it. Both EA players and devs have shown some less positive behaviour, can't blame only EA players for that. One can only hope that both sides of the fence have learned something from these latest weeks and the upheaval that was going on.

Edited October 18, 2014 by LLv34_Flanker

[dburne]

 

In short, instead of people looking for an advancement on what has gone before, maybe they should look at this game as a new start, and adjust their expectations accordingly. Maybe tomorrow I'll feel the exact opposite. Time will tell.

 

Well the only thing with that, is there are a lot of folks who played IL-2- FB -AEP- PF -1946.

It was obviously a hugely successful series, at least sure appeared to be in our niche of combat flight simming.

 

It would seem, they are targeting both those players, along with new players from other games like WT.

I am one that came from the original IL-2 Series, and followed /played it's expansions.

BOS, is billed as:

"It is the next generation of the legendary Sturmovik series of WWII flight-sim games."

 

The new box art for the PC-DVD versions states:

" The Legend Returns".

 

Now I don't know, maybe all the crowd that is left that used to play and/or still plays 1946, have already bought into this Early Access period. But I suspect if there are many that have not, coming from where they came from, may be in for a bit of a surprise.

I can't speak for the crowd that like say WT and what they might think.

 

But from the developers advertising statements, it is easy to see why folks would come in expecting an advancement on what has gone before...

Edited October 18, 2014 by dburnette

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 I know quite a few players from original IL-2 series(and other sims of that matter) that won't get BoS after being able to see and test it. A shame really, but can't force them either. Many of them have followed silently the development process without posting anything here, but talking in RL. Credits to BoS are given where they are due, but too many open issues and gamey features and lack of options are basically the biggest turn offs. Hoping hard that after release, it being a successfull one, changes would come to attract the "lost sheep"..

[Gambit21]

 We should stop paying in advance for anything.

 

Then you would stop seeing the development of these kinds of sims.

[senseispcc]

Comimg  from Battlehawk 1942 I have seen all the changes during all this years and for me Battle for Stalingrad is a step forward in the right direction.

 

Speaking of flight simulations this is the best for the moment it is not finished but nearly so!

 

Some are not happy but if I read correctly most are.

[Dutch]

Then you would stop seeing the development of these kinds of sims.

 

Rubbish. We'd simply see a return to the days whereby a business presents an idea to an investor, the game is funded, developed and people buy it. Happens all the time. No-one was under any sort of Kickstarter/pledge obligation to pre-purchase this game. We all went ahead and did it because we thought we were 'doing the right thing' for the genre. The game would've gone ahead anyway.