Are we our own worst enemies ?

[fjacobsen]

Lately and especially after the release of the Campaign mode I have seen alot of negative posts.

 

I´m not saying that I whole heartly agree with the decisions made by the developers, but on the otherside we have not yet proven that it cannot make fun.

 

According to the devs. the ROF campaign model was not an succes.

One could claim that they could use the PWCG way of doing a campaign. But the problem might also lay in the fact that they got limited resources to do such a campaign and then again the histrian freaks woul start to dismantle it.

 

For my own part I can see how the current campaign system gradually is getting better now. I agree that the unlocking sytem feels a bit arcadish, but on the otherside it´s also opening another approach towards a campaign system.

 

Flight simming is a niche and the community is rather small. Inordeer to get new guy to this genre it might be of value to introduce a system from popular flight games like World of Planes and War Thunder.

The old venerable flightsimmers might disheartened this approach, but in the end this might really be the way to get new blood in to the community.

 

We are also seeing alot of debates about the FM. While I like aircraft to behave as close to the real thing, I still think that finding out how the real thing really behaved is not easy.

The apporach from the devs is good, using data from real world resources. These datas can always be questioned, but so can the various flightreports from pilots.

 

Just take too car specialists and let them grade the same car and You would most definitly get two different reports.

 

Personally I like the graphics and the FM of IL-2 BOS. The feeling of flight is believable and the relative performance between aircraft reasonable.

 

IL-2 BOS might become less than we dreamed about, but maybe final product will become what it deserves to be taken the possibilities, both economically and technologically into account for what the devs can achieve.

 

And don´t forget that it´s unlikely that the release version will be the final version.

 

ROF has grown tremendous after the release version and most of us know that the current ROF version is a far cry from what we got with version 1.00.

 

 

I think it´s important that we keep reasonable with our expectations.

 

 

FinnJ

 

 

[keeno]

My feelings exactly, well said.

 

Cheers

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Well the feel of flight really gets a funny twist when your plane is even slightly hit. All the planes seem to turn from planes that fly to planes doing the internet meme "Harlem shake"

[slm]

If players were asked to put these 3 game areas in order according to importance, I wonder what kind of results we would see:

 

1. single player (individual missions, quick mission builder)

2. multi player

3. campaign

 

For me campaign is the least important *in all games*, not just SoW.

Multiplayer is most important, but I do play single player also. Partly for training.

 

Why do I ask this? Because I hope the development teams will use most effort to improving those parts of the game that players see most important.

Edited October 17, 2014 by slm

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

100%. It's one thing to engage in critical conversation on these forums but another thing entirely to post negative comments elsewhere along with negative, pre-release reviews. If people want to see real change they need to continue to support this game outside of this community while engaging in productive criticisms within these walls.

 

It's a small team that's responsible for this product, enough negativity and the game won't survive long enough to grow into what we all want.

 

Right now we need to be there as a community to pick it up when it falls not knock it back down. 

[No601_Swallow]

You knock around the usual forums for a decade or two, lurking, reading. You start to accrue the simming gear you need. You go through two or three iterations of TIR. You join a squadron. You watch things ebb and flow. But you're always coming back to the forums, reading following what's happening. You follow with no little incredulity the main arguments (trim on a slider, RoF's revenue policy, the almost disaster of PF, the Grumann copyright fiasco, etc). You watch every moment of every vid on the second '46 CD. You muse on modelling atmospheric thingies. Eddies. Draughts. And yo come back to the forums. You even grow sort of fond of some of the more eccentric or iconoclastic voices (where are you RBJ?). You follow the back and forth. Trim tabs and undercarriage. Radiator drag...

 

You surf the hysteria of a "cracked" IL2. You have your heart embarrassingly broken by Spitgirl and all that. You fret and worry about the future of simming. In short you think you've seen it all.

 

But no, you haven't. Boy, you haven't.

 

Nothing new under the sun. And yes, we most assuredly are our own worst enemy.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Ex-flight-sims sempre aliquid novi, Swallow?

 

Even with aspects of which I do not agree, I would rather be on the inside pissing out (or, occasionaly, on other people's feelings) than on the outside pissing in and complaining about everything

[IIN8II]

Are we our own worst enemies? How dare you!!!!..... But yes we are..

[fjacobsen]

You knock around the usual forums for a decade or two, lurking, reading. You start to accrue the simming gear you need. You go through two or three iterations of TIR. You join a squadron. You watch things ebb and flow. But you're always coming back to the forums, reading following what's happening. You follow with no little incredulity the main arguments (trim on a slider, RoF's revenue policy, the almost disaster of PF, the Grumann copyright fiasco, etc). You watch every moment of every vid on the second '46 CD. You muse on modelling atmospheric thingies. Eddies. Draughts. And yo come back to the forums. You even grow sort of fond of some of the more eccentric or iconoclastic voices (where are you RBJ?). You follow the back and forth. Trim tabs and undercarriage. Radiator drag...

 

You surf the hysteria of a "cracked" IL2. You have your heart embarrassingly broken by Spitgirl and all that. You fret and worry about the future of simming. In short you think you've seen it all.

 

But no, you haven't. Boy, you haven't.

 

Nothing new under the sun. And yes, we most assuredly are our own worst enemy.

 

I been there too.

 

Starte with Ah-64D on my old Amstrad 464 moved on to Micrprose F-15 Strike Eegle. Got my first PC and flwe Aces over the Pacific, Aces over Europe. Moved on to US Navy Fighters and all it´s versions.

Remember Red Baron 1 ?, Rowans Royal Flying Coprs, European Airwar ?

I bought everything med by Janes Combat simulation and got into Falcon 4 and all it´s versions. ED Flamker and now DCS World.

 

Yeah I have been there and also thought I have seen whats worth seeing.

 

Flew IL-2 on Hyperlobby and had great fun.

 

Working as FSX developer in my sparetime and have fun flying ROF and now IL-2 BOS.

 

But to be honest - the negative posts takes some of the fun ways from it.

 

Is it perfect...

No - none of my sims ever was.

 

Can it become better...

Sure, and seeing what they made of ROF I´m certain it will happen. And when the the devs won´t do it, 3rd party guys  are ready to take over.

 

The best thing about IL-2 BOS is it´s steady and continues progress. every week adds more content and features and there is definitly a plan layed down for the team where to go.

 

We might not always agree about their heading, but it´s still better to know where they point rather to see a team fumle in blind.

 

 

FinnJ

Edited October 17, 2014 by fjacobsen

[JG300_Fried]

"The enemy is a fool, he thinks we are the enemies."

 

P. Desproges

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

First all of I love everything about IL2 BOS except the unlock system.  The recent negativity however didn't spring from nowhere.  None of the other sims you mention had them. They were great sims because nothing like this were forced on the players.  Most of the community doesn't want them. To include them is a marketing mistake that will lose people and sales.  To top it off there has never been an explanation of why they are present or what purpose they serve. Those who will never fly the sp campaign are to just go without in mp?  Why include a feature which splits the community?  Sorry, but IMHO it is a dumb decision.  So in answer to the OP question, no, we aren't are own worst enemy.  The devs made this decision and they can unmake it just as quickly.

[CaK_Rumcajs]

The community has raised its voice. And thats the best can happen. It gave the devs a clear signal that they took a step in the wrong direction. Better to fix it now than when the damage is already piling up. So no, what has happened was the best that could come. We are not our worst enemies. And we aren't enemies of the devs. In fact we are their best friends regardless of some too vocal members.

[Freycinet]

I haven't played many games other than flight sims over the years, but I certainly remember that most of them had unlocks (typically bigger and badder guns you could get as you advance through levels). Those unlocks were essential to completing later missions wheras the BoS unlocks are mostly of peripheral value. I applaud the developers for trying to attract a more diverse (probably younger) group of simmers to BoS: it is sorely needed. The reaction by some folks have been beyond the pale: especially the attempts to destroy the sim by dissing it maliciously. I mean, if you don't like a game just walk away from it... - Anyway, we've seen it before ad nauseam: the example of RoF especially comes to mind, my God it was attacked in the early days...

 

I think a new golden era of flight simming is just around the corner, with virtual reality, and I think BoS will be well-placed to wauw a LOT of new gamers that want a great experience with their new Oculus Rifts. BoS, I think, hits the sweet spot of being accessible, yet with very realistic flight in expert mode. Not too cartoonish like WT, not too complex as DCS. 

[Y-29.Silky]

I can live with the miniscule flaws because right now, this game is unparalleled in the combat flight sim world, and is fun as hell in MP where this game shines the most. And look at the devs, how many companies have you seen that actually listen, and communicate to their customers as well as these guys have been doing, so far? People are being way over dramatic.

 

[6high]

You knock around the usual forums for a decade or two, lurking, reading. You start to accrue the simming gear you need. You go through two or three iterations of TIR. You join a squadron. You watch things ebb and flow. But you're always coming back to the forums, reading following what's happening. You follow with no little incredulity the main arguments (trim on a slider, RoF's revenue policy, the almost disaster of PF, the Grumann copyright fiasco, etc). You watch every moment of every vid on the second '46 CD. You muse on modelling atmospheric thingies. Eddies. Draughts. And yo come back to the forums. You even grow sort of fond of some of the more eccentric or iconoclastic voices (where are you RBJ?). You follow the back and forth. Trim tabs and undercarriage. Radiator drag...

 

You surf the hysteria of a "cracked" IL2. You have your heart embarrassingly broken by Spitgirl and all that. You fret and worry about the future of simming. In short you think you've seen it all.

 

But no, you haven't. Boy, you haven't.

 

Nothing new under the sun. And yes, we most assuredly are our own worst enemy.

Wait..that`s my lines....

And yes, nowadays widely acknowledged fact: Man is definitley his own worst enemy - you think us simmers are better?

[Freycinet]

Love that image, Silky: so apt :-)

[DD_bongodriver]

apt indeed if the intention is to start another flame war.

[dburne]

 People are being way over dramatic.

 

 

 

After what I am seeing today, I  don't think you have to be concerned about that anymore...

[Uufflakke]

Remember, this is just an incrowd with a lot of founders.

In every topic the usual suspects.

 

Wait untill the game gets released.

And the invasion of newbies.

 

Then hell breaks lose.

[pilotpierre]

Good post fjacobsen. I think BoS is going to be a stayer for some time.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

You knock around the usual forums for a decade or two, lurking, reading. You start to accrue the simming gear you need. You go through two or three iterations of TIR. You join a squadron. You watch things ebb and flow. But you're always coming back to the forums, reading following what's happening. You follow with no little incredulity the main arguments (trim on a slider, RoF's revenue policy, the almost disaster of PF, the Grumann copyright fiasco, etc). You watch every moment of every vid on the second '46 CD. You muse on modelling atmospheric thingies. Eddies. Draughts. And yo come back to the forums. You even grow sort of fond of some of the more eccentric or iconoclastic voices (where are you RBJ?). You follow the back and forth. Trim tabs and undercarriage. Radiator drag...

 

You surf the hysteria of a "cracked" IL2. You have your heart embarrassingly broken by Spitgirl and all that. You fret and worry about the future of simming. In short you think you've seen it all.

 

But no, you haven't. Boy, you haven't.

 

Nothing new under the sun. And yes, we most assuredly are our own worst enemy.

Wise words and a great comment.

 

Chief

[avlSteve]

We're our own worst enemies by simple virtue that we're our only enemies.

[dburne]

Are we our own worst enemies?

 

I don't know, last time I looked, we are the customers.

Perhaps that has changed.

[falstaff]

Worst enemies...? Topic titles and threads like this one...perfect 'light-blue-touchpaper-and-stand-well-back'rehashing-and-resurrecting-of-the-last-few-days...like we need more of that.

 

Great, let's have another autopsy and re-stating of various arguments and entrenched positions.

 

If I hear one more 'state of the nation' type post whereby someone gets on a high horse of some hue and pontificates about the earthly failures of the nay-sayers, I'm going to scream.....and I'm largely on the side of the devs and law and order.

 

If people want to air grievances about unlocks, or FMs, or anything else, let them. It shows active engagement, an opinion, and is their right. I have no problem with it. At least it shows engagement with substance...and nott just some clap-trap about 'your fellow man' or 'your fellow simmer' or all that 'look at my gravitas and grown-uppity-ness' nonsense.

 

People vary...big deal.

Edited October 17, 2014 by falstaff

[Finkeren]

Are we our own worst enemies?

 

I don't know, last time I looked, we are the customers.

Perhaps that has changed.

Tbh I have come to view myself as more than just a customer. It's propably naive, but I think of myself as more of a "supporter". Flight sims have become such niche products, that I almost feel an obligation to support any attempt at making historical flight sims.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 I am still a customer. I pay for a product. If I would be a supporter, then I would invest money in the company.

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

Agreed Extreme_One, but the key point here I think is "in this forum" no good will come from people running around outside of this official forum all Chicken Little, the sky is falling (before the sun's even come up).

 

The game's not out yet, changes will happen, we can(and should) voice our opinions on these changes but to pour into other forums and essentially spread our negative views on what could potentially be a few short lived changes could have far worse long term consequences.  

Edited October 17, 2014 by 72ndSulaco

[Nil]

I haven't played many games other than flight sims over the years, but I certainly remember that most of them had unlocks (typically bigger and badder guns you could get as you advance through levels). Those unlocks were essential to completing later missions wheras the BoS unlocks are mostly of peripheral value. I applaud the developers for trying to attract a more diverse (probably younger) group of simmers to BoS: it is sorely needed. The reaction by some folks have been beyond the pale: especially the attempts to destroy the sim by dissing it maliciously. I mean, if you don't like a game just walk away from it... - Anyway, we've seen it before ad nauseam: the example of RoF especially comes to mind, my God it was attacked in the early days...

 

I think a new golden era of flight simming is just around the corner, with virtual reality, and I think BoS will be well-placed to wauw a LOT of new gamers that want a great experience with their new Oculus Rifts. BoS, I think, hits the sweet spot of being accessible, yet with very realistic flight in expert mode. Not too cartoonish like WT, not too complex as DCS. 

May I ask what sims you played had unlocks? Just make it a choice in the game "I want unlocks" [  ] "I don't want unlocks" [x] and everyone would be happy. The negativity comes to being 'forced' to do something that (almost) no one asked for! (I don't want to do the tutorial.. and I certanly dont want to do it in a Lagg!)

It's the best flightsim game-core in a long time, already way ahead of CLOD at it's release! And more balanced the original IL2, and by balanced I don't mean that all planes perform the same way, but more of realistic behavior!

[DD_fruitbat]

 (where are you RBJ?).

 

Legend.

[steppenwolf]

If the game is good it will succeed. 

[DD_bongodriver]

It doesn't matter that the game hasn't come out yet, there are plenty of us who have early access, the devs have told us the roadmap, we know pretty much what is coming at 90%.

[avlSteve]

Good God with the unlocks.  What on earth needed to be unlocked that you can't live without?  Seriously.  The Stuka sirens get unlocked after the first flight. 

 

They're unlocks.  It's not like your eyeballs got poked out. 

[DD_Arthur]

 

 

 You have your heart embarrassingly broken by Spitgirl

 

Wot?  That raddled old slapper!  No chance.

[DD_bongodriver]

 

 

They're unlocks. It's not like your eyeballs got poked out.

 

Fun in equal measure.

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

The unlocks are a bummer, no doubt. I powered through and managed to get all of them though, not the worst thing I've ever done, some of it was pretty fun and I learned a lot in the process.

 

That being said, to cannibalize a product that you love due to a few measly unlocks is pretty messed up, specially a product that could potentially have years of interesting content added if it succeeds.

Edited October 17, 2014 by 72ndSulaco

[Nil]

Good God with the unlocks.  What on earth needed to be unlocked that you can't live without?  Seriously.  The Stuka sirens get unlocked after the first flight. 

 

They're unlocks.  It's not like your eyeballs got poked out. 

Bombs for fighters? Huge bombs for bombers.. the extra gunpods för the 190 (that I were 90% certain where the standard loadout, prove me wrong?) it have enough fire power as it is, but still.. yeah it might now even been close to Stalingrad at the time but that is another matter.

[TheBlackPenguin]

Well said.

 

I have one pet peeve though, career play and campaign should be seen as two separate entities. In the ideal world we would have both, one is more "gamey" and has nice videos through each section of a campaign detailing each stage as they occur, don't really necessarily have to worry about promotion.

 

Career, is much deeper and contains RPG elements, select a squadron (or maybe go through training and be assigned to one) and work through gaining medals, promotions etc. Want to move to a different squadron? Apply for transfer. Career mode imho, is definitive, but requires more resources. Obviously not going into detail what career should be with a short post.

 

ROF has both a beta career and some campaigns, such as Hat in the Ring as well as the third party PWCG.

 

BOS will grow and get better, but requires nurturing and further support from everyone...Hopefully people see it as a long term thing.

[dburne]

All this I'm taking the moral high-ground nonsense is pathetic.

 

The concept that "I'm better than you because you have dared to criticise" is anathematic.

 

 

 

Right on brother!!

[[KWN]T-oddball]

First all of I love everything about IL2 BOS except the unlock system.  The recent negativity however didn't spring from nowhere.  None of the other sims you mention had them. They were great sims because nothing like this were forced on the players.  Most of the community doesn't want them. To include them is a marketing mistake that will lose people and sales.  To top it off there has never been an explanation of why they are present or what purpose they serve. Those who will never fly the sp campaign are to just go without in mp?  Why include a feature which splits the community?  Sorry, but IMHO it is a dumb decision.  So in answer to the OP question, no, we aren't are own worst enemy.  The devs made this decision and they can unmake it just as quickly.

this^^^ and if I might add FMB and skinning  are essential to a proper historical Air combat Simulation.

[Mac_Messer]

 

I think it´s important that we keep reasonable with our expectations.

 

 

FinnJ

Reasonable is right. If the same trolls give BoS bad reviews it might even kill the game right off the bat, so to speak. I`ve already seen that happen with that another sim.

 

We need to see insightful reviews, particulary comparing the game to other flight sims on the market. And yes, if there are flaws, the new users need to know them before they buy. No more, no less.