Interesting Fact: Fw190 over Dibovka (40km north of Stalingrad)

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Hey Folks,

 

a few times here in the Forum, i read people complaining, or just stating, the 190 is not the wisest/best choice in this game, because it actually - quote "wasn't used in the stalingrad campaign" -

 

I have newly gathered (in fact a few minutes ago) interesting information about this topic. I am reading a book, about biographies of loads of German Pilots who flew in WW2. The Story right now is about 3 pilots who were captured from the russians, and right now they are on their road to Stalingrad, hiding in transport trucks, escaping from a prison in Saratow. 

The day is 23. November 1942, when the supply column gets attacked by Fw190 near the Town of Dibovka, 40km north of Stalingrad, you can see it in the ingame Map.

 

So i think, with this new information i just got, this plane has definitely it's right to exist in this game   

Edited October 15, 2014 by Celestiale

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

uh? are you saying it not supposed to be in the game? But it is a game not a war simulator.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

uh? are you saying it not supposed to be in the game? But it is a game not a war simulator.

 

no, not me,i just prescribed it  . but i saw a few people in different topics, stating about it's "unhistorical" to have it ingame.

 

but in fact, i now know, that it's not (unhistorical)!

[AndyJWest]

Aircraft get misidentified all the time. See for example the repeated sightings of the He 113 during the Battle of Britain. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/oct/22/1

Edited October 15, 2014 by AndyJWest

[II./JG77_Manu*]

the 190 definitely doesn't get misidentified by german pilots during ground attacks where the planes fly at ~50m altitude . The only other plane, it could have been is the 109, and anyone who has the slightest idea of planes can tell you from 3km if it is a 109 or a 190

[FuriousMeow]

Neat. So the LuftWaffe didn't know where their own planes were stationed and assigned?

[LizLemon]

The only other plane, it could have been is the 109, and anyone who has the slightest idea of planes can tell you from 3km if it is a 109 or a 190

 

IAR 80 could be easily mistaken for a 190

[AndyJWest]

the 190 definitely doesn't get misidentified by german pilots during ground attacks where the planes fly at ~50m altitude . The only other plane, it could have been is the 109, and anyone who has the slightest idea of planes can tell you from 3km if it is a 109 or a 190

 

Given that RAF pilots managed to mistake Hurricanes (complete with RAF roundels) for Bf 109s during the Battle of Barking Creek, I see no reason why Luftwaffe pilots shouldn't have made a similar mistake, particularly if they were being straffed at the time - we know that IAR 80s were operating during the Battle of Stalingrad - and there appears to be no reliable evidence that any Fw 190-equipped unit was in the area. 

[FuriousMeow]

Given that RAF pilots managed to mistake Hurricanes (complete with RAF roundels) for Bf 109s during the Battle of Barking Creek, I see no reason why Luftwaffe pilots shouldn't have made a similar mistake, particularly if they were being straffed at the time - we know that IAR 80s were operating during the Battle of Stalingrad - and there appears to be no reliable evidence that any Fw 190-equipped unit was in the area. 

 

Helmut Lipfert mistook Mustangs for 109s.

[1./JG42Nephris]

Book title/ Source.?

Pilot squadron and their homebase.?

 

However in llate autumn 42 a handfull FW were delivered to one of the east squads 53 or 52 imho at the middle sector.

But I never read about Fw190 in 1942 in the southern sector of the eastfront.

Nevertheless that fact doesnt make it for me more or less worthfull for having a 190 in the game.

Nice to have, point.

Edited October 16, 2014 by 1./JG42Nephris

[LukeFF]

However in llate autumn 42 a handfull FW were delivered to one of the east squads 53 or 52 imho at the middle sector.

 

No, no, no, no, no, no, no!!!!

 

JG 51 was the first to receive the 190 in the east, and that was in September 1942. JG 53 and JG 52 were never equipped with the 190.

Helmut Lipfert mistook Mustangs for 109s.

 

That, and the Luftwaffe was known for having all sorts of weird IDs for Soviet aircraft. 

 

No, this supposed new info in the first post doesn't change anything. There were no ground attack units equipped with the 190 anywhere near Stalingrad. That's a documented fact.

Edited October 16, 2014 by LukeFF

[ShamrockOneFive]

When it comes to primary sources the stories are utterly fascinating and give us all kinds of viewpoints into the conflict but I wouldn't necessarily hinge on their every word. Pierre Closterman's The Big Show is a fantastic book but not everything in it is technically accurate and some of the information he has on German aircraft for example is derived from the "fog of war"... so not always based on reality. Just what he knew at the time. As far as misidentification of aircraft goes... it happened so frequently its really quite interesting as a subject in itself. There are countless stories that I've read about aircraft identified as one type but actually being something else. Saburo Sakai was shot by a SBD Dauntless over Guadalcanal, however, he thought it was a TBM Avenger (and originally dove on the formation thinking they were Wildcats)... and we're talking about a top notch seasoned ace.

 

I'd go with the basing information that we have on Luftwaffe units over eyewitness accounts. Simply because people are notoriously bad at remembering details.

[[KWN]T-oddball]

nice read about the 190

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_190_operational_history

[Dakpilot]

It is quite simple...the map for historical missions for FW190 exists in game and the full map for this area should be along soon "Battle for Velikie Luki"

 

Thanks to Zues and team for the great work!

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Anw.StG2_Tyke]

Source: Aircraft of the Aces: Men&Legends Foocke-Wulf FW 190 Aces on the Eastern Front Osprey Aviation by John Weal

p. 40

 

Altough the first Staffeln of Schl.G.1 had returned in the Southern Sector of the front early in 1943, where they helped to cover the first stages of the withdrawal from the Caucasus,....

Source: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Schlachtgeschwader/SG1.htm

 

 

Am 17. Dezember 1942 wurde das Geschwader von der Me 109 auf die Fw 190 umgestellt. Die 4. und die 8. Staffel wurden zu Panzer-Staffeln mit der Hs 129.

Translated: On the 17. Dezember 1942 the Squadron began to change from the Me 109 to the Fw 190. The 4th and 8th Staffel changed to Anti-Tank-Staffeln with Hs 129's.

 

Im Januar in Süd-Rußland bei Stalingrad unter dem VIII. Fliegerkorps eingesetzt. Die I. Gruppe lag in Saporoshje, die II. in Poltawa.

Ab Februar Einsatz bei der Luftflotte 4 in Süd-Rußland.

Translated: In January they were commanded by the VIII. Fliegerkorps in South-Russia near Stalingrad. The I. Group was in Saporoshje, the II. Group in Poltawa. In February they got ordered to the 4th Luftflotte in South-Russia.

[Matt]

The II. was the only Gruppe of SG1 which was equipped with Fw 190 during the last days of the BoS, but they were still in Poland during that time.

 

The other Gruppen got the Fw 190 much later than that.

 

Will post my sources in the evening, if necessary.

 

Not sure why this rumour with the Fw 190 being around at Stalingrad is always coming up and why the same "sources" get used to "proof" that again and again.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Many planes were misindentified in combat. I bet not many pilot could distinguish a plane accurtely in the heat of the battle.

[1./JG42Nephris]

 

 

No, no, no, no, no, no, no!!!!

Man that reaction gives room for psychological interpretations.

[MiloMorai]

Stab JG51 bases

5.4.42 - 11.42 Smolensk   Bf 109F 11.42 - 10.1.43 Witebsk   Bf 109F/Fw 190A 10.1.43 - 3.2.43 Isotscha/Iwan-See   Fw 190A

 

I./JG51 bases

10.8.42 - 10.9.42 Jesau   Bf 109F, Fw 190A 10.9.42 - 18.10.42 Ljuban   Fw 190A 18.10.42 - 6.1.43 Wjasma-Süd   Fw 190A 6.1.43 - 27.1.43 Isotscha/Iwan-See   Fw 190A 27.1.43 - 3.43 Orel-West   Fw 190A 3.43 - 5.43 Bryansk  

Fw 190A

 

Would be interested in your source Matt as

 

SG1 did get Fw190s till

27.5.44 - 7.44 Wilna 4. Flieger-Division Ju 87, Fw 190 7.44 - 28.7.44 Sudauen 4. Flieger-Division Fw 190 28.7.44 - 28.9.44 Lobellen 4. Flieger-Division Fw 190

http://www.ww2.dk/

 

[Matt]

@MoloMorai:

I meant SchlG 1, not SG1 (was mixing the name up, but SG1 did not exist during the BoS anyway).

 

It even has it on the site you're mentioning:

http://www.ww2.dk/air/attack/schg1.htm

 

It also supports my post. No Fw 190 anywhere near Stalingrad during the BoS.

[[KWN]T-oddball]

The II. was the only Gruppe of SG1 which was equipped with Fw 190 during the last days of the BoS, but they were still in Poland during that time.

 

The other Gruppen got the Fw 190 much later than that.

 

Will post my sources in the evening, if necessary.

 

Not sure why this rumour with the Fw 190 being around at Stalingrad is always coming up and why the same "sources" get used to "proof" that again and again.

Because it is part of the available plane set and people want to use it....but in an historical fashion if they can, i would rather they had put in the JU52 than the 190....many more historical missions could be around it.

[=38=Tatarenko]

RAF pilots even fired on "Stukas" and captured a "German pilot" during the Japanese invasion of Singapore.

[MiloMorai]

Agh, SchlG1 and it is based 3-400km from Stalingrad and only from Jan '43.

 

Matt, as you speak German, here is a listing of I./JG51 losses,  http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archive/index.php?t-34783.html

 

This is the Orel area and many several 100km (maybe 800km) from Stalingrad.

[Matt]

Yes, but that's what I'm saying. It was not at Stalingrad.

 

@T-Oddball: unless I'm mistaken, the Fw 190 is available on all MP servers and it's avaliable in SP of course. So people can already fly it. If they want to fly it in a historical mission, they can do that on the other map (not in SP campaign of course).

 

In the end it will be in the hands of the server admins/mission makers wether or not the plane will be avaliable.

 

There's no reason for these types of topics and for posting the same wrong sources though.

[[TWB]80hd]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no!!!!

 

JG 51 was the first to receive the 190 in the east, and that was in September 1942. JG 53 and JG 52 were never equipped with the 190.

 

That, and the Luftwaffe was known for having all sorts of weird IDs for Soviet aircraft. 

 

No, this supposed new info in the first post doesn't change anything. There were no ground attack units equipped with the 190 anywhere near Stalingrad. That's a documented fact.

 

 

It gives me the UTMOST pleasure to present you the following document:

 

http://spitfirevsbf109.com/files/LuftwaffeStalingrad.pdf

 

Please direct your attention to page 18 (of the document, page 29 of the .pdf, thanks editor Pand haha), specifically the very bottom.

 

Edited October 16, 2014 by [TWB]80hd

[MiloMorai]

Agh. 4./JG3 had Bf109G-2s NOT Fw190s.

[[TWB]80hd]

No Fw 190 anywhere near Stalingrad during the BoS.

 

For you sir, you'll want to be looking at not only page 18 (of the document, page 29 of the .pdf) but also, specifically page 51 of the document (page 62 of the .pdf) I posted above (Or here, again: http://spitfirevsbf109.com/files/LuftwaffeStalingrad.pdf  )

 

I believe that if we work together, we can prevent you making embarrassing statements in the future.

 

To believe that the Luftwaffe would not send it's new highly successful fighter to the most important battle in modern history just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, now does it?

Edited October 16, 2014 by [TWB]80hd

[FuriousMeow]

And yet... http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/1113-luftwaffe-ops-over-stalingrad-appraisal/?p=147073

 

csThor knows his history.

Edited October 16, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[LukeFF]

It gives me the UTMOST pleasure to present you the following document:

 

http://spitfirevsbf109.com/files/LuftwaffeStalingrad.pdf

 

Please direct your attention to page 18 (of the document, page 29 of the .pdf, thanks editor Pand haha), specifically the very bottom.

 

Oh, you mean this Schlachtgeschwader 1?

 

http://ww2.dk/air/attack/schg1.htm

 

Nice try, though.

[MiloMorai]

{TWB}80hd

 

You do realize that page 51 shows the OoB for the whole Luftwaffe. For example, JG2 was only based in the West.

[LukeFF]

Also entirely absent is any account from the Soviet side of them encountering 190s at Stalingrad or capturing any of these planes after the battle was over. If they had encountered 190s their writings would note that. 

[[TWB]80hd]

Hey gents, if you want to refute a ridiculously footnoted U.S. Military document in order to assuage your need to be right, by all means go for it.

 

The bibliography is extensive.

 

The information is right there in front of you.

[[TWB]80hd]

{TWB}80hd

 

You do realize that page 51 shows the OoB for the whole Luftwaffe. For example, JG2 was only based in the West.

Thats the underlined-bold whole Luftwaffe, huh?

 

Go back and look at that list of aircraft and tell me what is missing. (Yes, I understand that list is not JUST units stationed within 10km of Stalingrad.)

[Sim]

Some quotes from Conversations With A Stuka Pilot.

 

I will try to give you some examples of the situation in the Battle of Stalingrad, to give a picture of the situation in late summer of 1942. My Geschwader were on emergency fields in the Russian steppes - out on a plains lanscape, no trees, no bushes. In the neighborhood were other units of the Eight Air Corps, under whose command we were at that time. There was fighter Geschwader "Udet", there was a close air support Geschwader with Focke-Wulf 190, and a level bomber Geschwader.

 

We should not forget that Jagdgeschwader Udet and close air support Geschwader 190, also employed as fighter units, had full air supremacy in the Stalingrad area after having decimated Russian fighters and interceptors.

 

Could be just a bad memory.. but I find it hard to believe a guy who led the famous StG 2 during the Battle of Stalingrad and who probably was constantly using the same forward airfields as Schlacht geschwader confused 190 for something else.

[JtD]

Hey gents, if you want to refute a ridiculously footnoted U.S. Military document in order to assuage your need to be right, by all means go for it.

The author is in some cases wrong, for instance on the bottom of page 18 (29 in the pdf), where he refers to a work of Cajus Becker, a secondary source at best, uses the wrong designations for aircraft and unit and contradicts the facts evident from Luftwaffe primary sources, or on page 51, where he doesn't even get the date right, unless there were 21 months in 1942. Who knows which other figures, designations or facts are fudged up.

 

To take anything as gospel, is wrong.

Edited October 17, 2014 by JtD

[unreasonable]

 

"Hey gents, if you want to refute a ridiculously footnoted U.S. Military document in order to assuage your need to be right, by all means go for it.

 

The bibliography is extensive.

 

The information is right there in front of you."

 

It is a student report dated 1987, as the cover pages make clear, not an original source document. Not really a U.S. Military document at all.

[Matt]

I believe that if we work together, we can prevent you making embarrassing statements in the future.

[MiloMorai]

Some quotes from Conversations With A Stuka Pilot.

 

Could be just a bad memory.. but I find it hard to believe a guy who led the famous StG 2 during the Battle of Stalingrad and who probably was constantly using the same forward airfields as Schlacht geschwader confused 190 for something else.

 

Certainly a bad memory for no unit of JG3 had any Fw190s til Feb 1944 when IV./JG3 was based at Salzwedel Germany (109 km NE of Hannover and 81 km NNE of Braunschweig).

http://www.ww2.dk/air/jagd/jg3.htm

http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields%20-%20Germany%20%5B1937%20Borders%5D.pdf

[Sim]

Certainly a bad memory for no unit of JG3 had any Fw190s til Feb 1944 when IV./JG3 was based at Salzwedel Germany (109 km NE of Hannover and 81 km NNE of Braunschweig).

http://www.ww2.dk/air/jagd/jg3.htm

http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields%20-%20Germany%20%5B1937%20Borders%5D.pdf

 

Please refer to the quotes. He never said JG 3 Udet operated Fw 190, but a "close air support" geschwader - hence, apparently the Schlachtgeschwader 1, which took part in Battle of Stalingrad.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Sim

[ImPeRaToR]

Please refer to the quotes. He never said JG 3 Udet operated Fw 190, but a "close air support" geschwader - hence, apparently the Schlachtgeschwader 1, which took part in Battle of Stalingrad.

Except he calls it Schlachtgruppe 1, which never existed to my knowledge.