Consequences - How to up the in-game emotional investment.

[BzKBravoZulu]

Hi Pilots,

 

RTB for rearm, refuel & repair... With practical and contextual consequences.

 

I know this is a old topic and views are split as to the value it can add to the 

gameplay experience. I want to bring this topic back with the sim close to launch,

now that we have a better understanding of how the sim practically works.

 

I think most of us (myself included) like the notion of an RRR feature for MP but

I understand that in of itself, it doesn't add too much practical value.

(Like making us better pilots, or making us fly more cooperatively... etc)

 

However, after giving it quite a bit of thought I think this feature can add

another layer of emotional investment which is atm missing from the sim and

can provide a great opportunity to inject the in game/sim experience with a much 

needed action - consequence factor which could take us a step closer to feeling 

the desperation and struggle of the Eastern Front.

 

 

So, How it works now...

 

As it stands now, you get on the server and pick your base and plane. The plane is

perfect in every way... You fly, fight, strafe or bomb. Land or die or both. Back to map,

Pick a plane (if it is still available) rinse and repeat.

 

There are no consequences for thoughtless or reckless flying outside of halfing your points.

 

 

How I'd like it to work...

 

When you enter the server you get a fresh plane. If you can fly, fight and RTB with the plane 

in serviceable condition (ie Zero to minor damage)  - you can taxi off the runway (or to a designated area close to the runway)

switch off the plane - access the plane setup screen without going back to the map - pick fuel & ammo loadout - restart

the plane and go forth...

 

If you CAN'T bring your plane home in a serviceable condition then the supply conditions at the field

come into play and you will not be able to get into a perfect plane like the one you just crashed. You 

will be able to get a plane that simulates the current battle/supply conditions of your base.

 

Here are a few examples of contextual consequences that undersupplied and battle worn squadrons may have:

 

Poked engine single (10-15% less power)

Poked engine double (20-25% less power in one engine)

Fuel leak (Burns fuel 30% faster)

Overheating engine (engine heats up 15% faster)

One machine gun damaged/removed

One canon damaged/removed (For multi-canon planes)

Ammo shortage (15-30% less ammo)

Non-functioning flaps

Non functioning boost or supercharger

Stressed Airframe (10-15% less airframe integrity)

Bad Fuel (engine stutters/misfires) etc etc

 

So the plane is still good enough to fly and be effective but it is not at its peak.

 

This will encourage and incentivise pilots to stop flying like chops and treat their planes like the precious war machines they actually were. 

(What sane base commander would keep giving brand new spanky planes to pilots who can't bring it home in one piece?)

 

And if you can bring your 'battleworn' plane back to base without more than minor damage, then when you land, taxi and switch off engine you 

will RRR your plane back to peak condition. (It must be said that some might try exploit this ie take-off then turn around and immediately land...

so maybe a 5min minimum flight time may be required before you can RTB and RRR.)

 

Long story short, the threat of receiving less points is a far lower emotional incentive than receiving a lesser functioning plane.

It raises the stakes and gives the pilot a greater sense of purpose - killing enemy won't be the only important thing anymore...

Striving to get yourself and your plane back in one piece will become an important strategic feature of the sim.

 

 

The only thing this consequence system hinges on is the ability of the mission builder to model simulated/randomised damage on spawn.

 

 

And if it can... It opens up a bunch of new campaign, Coop or MP missions for the mission building elves to create.

 

eg.

- Intercept and protect a damaged friendly bomber on its way home

 

- Or fly a damaged bomber home from mission

 

- Escape and evade - get your shot up fighter back behind friendly line while being hunted

 

- Scramble a (lightly) bomb damaged fighter from base while it is being attacked.

 

- Last desperate defense - your whole fighter squad is forced to take up barely airworthy and beat up planes

with very little ammo and try beat off an enemy attack.

 

- Training missions that go horribly wrong (eg engine failure on take-off) etc etc

 

 

 

So to sum up... To be able to RRR with added practical consequence features ... What do you guys think?

[=LD=Hethwill]

I don't like "stat" penalties.

 

Without keeping it simple and stupid, and as we have and had on other online wars, perma-death equals ending the career for that life. You restart your kill counts and similar from 0.

 

Also the 1 life scenarios can be introduced same as in old IL-2. I mean 2 hour cycles in a mission with squads around, playing with 1 life will make all that RTB and survival aspect a great asset.

[39bn_pavig]

I like the idea, but I am concerned with the idea on implementation. I think maybe if the game infrastructure was there to enable mission makers to build such a function for MP then it would be better. I can imagine some servers would run variations on this theme, others just limited aircraft stock (as is the case already) and some just keep  inventories infinite. Infinite plane inventory makes sense for duel and dogfight servers, whereas systems like you discuss more for objectives based servers.

[BzKBravoZulu]

I don't like "stat" penalties.

 

Without keeping it simple and stupid, and as we have and had on other online wars, perma-death equals ending the career for that life. You restart your kill counts and similar from 0.

Also the 1 life scenarios can be introduced same as in old IL-2. I mean 2 hour cycles in a mission with squads around, playing with 1 life will make all that RTB and survival aspect a great asset.

 

Hi Khan, yeah I hear you on the stat penalities... Maybe it doesn't come across as very organic however it can be very effective and possibly interesting

and challenging to try fly and fight with a plane that has some minor airworthy issues that need to be compensated for... For me its about adding layers and depth,

trying to provoke an emotional response and creating more a conscious flying environment... So not just take off - kill kill kill - respawn - take off - kill kill kill etc

 

As far a perma death system on servers go... Wow, thats a hectic penalty to impose. I can imagine guys going nuts with rage, for instance, having a ground collision on take-off

and then not being allowed to play on the server for another hour. I feel that it may be more demotivating than encouraging. But its worth talking about if enough guys are into it.

Edited October 16, 2014 by BZKBravoZulu

[BzKBravoZulu]

I like the idea, but I am concerned with the idea on implementation. I think maybe if the game infrastructure was there to enable mission makers to build such a function for MP then it would be better. I can imagine some servers would run variations on this theme, others just limited aircraft stock (as is the case already) and some just keep  inventories infinite. Infinite plane inventory makes sense for duel and dogfight servers, whereas systems like you discuss more for objectives based servers.

 

I spoke to one of the mission building testers - he was raving about how good/sophisticated the mission builder is BTW - and asked if he could suggest to the Devs about damage modeling and he was pretty taken with the idea and promised to put it forward ... So we'll see. It won't be right now though, but its something to aim for.

 

A simpler way that this Consequences System could work - even on dogfight servers - is taking away the RRR feature and just having to land the plane back at base... If the Sim says you've landed safely then you can spawn another plane as the sim is now. If you crash outright or if the sim says you have made an emergency landing then you can spawn a plane but with a random consequence function imposed on your plane. (If you can return your junker the next time you spawn without crashing, you can have a fully functional plane.)

 

I think we'll see far less crazy piloting antics if we have a consequence system in place... Even in SP

 

Guys will use the runway more often - not try take-off cross country.

They might be more wary of high G maneuvers at extreme low levels.

They won't recklessly sit behind a bomber formation thinking they won't be hit.

No more gung ho head ons.

They'll be more cognisant of their Engine states (temps, fuel etc)

And the list goes on... 

Edited October 16, 2014 by BZKBravoZulu

[=LD=Hethwill]

For Squads and missions, 1 life event is awesome.

 

You have the immersion of being there and damn, casualties are casualties, not simply stats on a board. They are meaningful.

 

Plus it helps the community as a whole given pilots will try to orchestrate actions along with their squads and guys without squads will try to join one.

 

Obviously this ideas will be put into practice once FMB becomes more widespread.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

Your idea has merit on say single player or a historical online server like Syndicate. I particularly like the immersion factor in encouraging all to complete a flight/mission by returning and landing. Too often pilots only interested in shooting and flying opt to punch out, i.e. escape out and could care less about actually trying to complete the mission or rearm and resume.

 

Chief

[LLv34_Untamo]

S!

 

SEOW campaigning comes to mind, old IL-2 coop type missions, 1-3h per mission, 1 life, lose it and it's: "try again next week"

 

I think this idea could work in form or another in objective based servers.

[Requiem]

Your idea is cool, but it's very complex. For something simple I would implement the streak system from Rise of Flight. That was always a nice statistic to have because that is a good indicator of how well you were doing during a pilot's 'life', since when you die it's reset to zero. Many people would say once they got above 10 their flying style changed dramatically to suddenly caring about their virtual life.

[Talisman]

Strongly disagree with this!

 

Not a good idea and not realistic sitting in aircraft waiting for individual RRR.

 

Also, this might be something some lone wolf MP players might like, or for single player mode, but if you fly with a squad this just adds a f**k factor to being able to all fly the next mission together.

 

The other side of the coin is that if you have shown the skill to get a battle damaged aircraft back to base and land it without writing it off, you should be rewarded with a fully serviceable plane for the next mission.

 

Lets keep it simple and easy to have fun and fly together.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Nil]

Played DiD in ROF B-career.. and the most I got to were 5 missions, since the bugger reargunners could shoot through the bottom of the plane, and into my (at the time) too sensitive engline.

[BzKBravoZulu]

Your idea is cool, but it's very complex. For something simple I would implement the streak system from Rise of Flight. That was always a nice statistic to have because that is a good indicator of how well you were doing during a pilot's 'life', since when you die it's reset to zero. Many people would say once they got above 10 their flying style changed dramatically to suddenly caring about their virtual life.

 

Interesting suggestion, I don't know ROF at all well but that is actually a simple and motivating feature - The point of my post is not to prescribe changes to anyone but to open up the conversation... Anything that adds to the emotional investment of virtual pilots is a good thing.

 

Maybe I should look into ROF some more, they seem to have some small but interesting innovations to the flying genre

Edited November 2, 2014 by BZKBravoZulu

[BzKBravoZulu]

Strongly disagree with this!

 

Not a good idea and not realistic sitting in aircraft waiting for individual RRR.

 

Also, this might be something some lone wolf MP players might like, or for single player mode, but if you fly with a squad this just adds a f**k factor to being able to all fly the next mission together.

 

The other side of the coin is that if you have shown the skill to get a battle damaged aircraft back to base and land it without writing it off, you should be rewarded with a fully serviceable plane for the next mission.

 

Lets keep it simple and easy to have fun and fly together.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

Hi Tal, I respect your opinion however I don't understand your point.

 

Just in case I am being misunderstood - I don't suggest a long RRR process - just land, taxi off runway , switch off engine (the server normally take +/- 15 secs to bring up the map) thats all the time you should be sitting with your engine off... then when you would hit escape to leave game (as it is now) to go to the map screen - the loadout screen would be there in its place... The whole process shouldn't take you any longer than if you try respawn - it is a reward, not a punishment.

 

To address your lone wolf comment, maybe you can relate to this scenario...

When I fly with friends and go hunting it is not a guarantee that when we return to base / or respawn , we will all get the same planes again to fly another mission.

This system guarantees that all your mates (who survive) and can get back home will be able to get the same plane... No matter how busy the server is.

So I don't understand your point... This would be great for disciplined squads and have that discipline rewarded

There is nothing stopping your out of ammo wingman staying with you and RTB'ing together. 

Edited November 2, 2014 by BZKBravoZulu

[vonPilsner]

My only concern is that better pilots will have planes in better condition and bad pilots will keep getting substandard aircraft.  Penalizing people for being bad might de-incentivize new players from MP.