FM Claims respond

[OSh1mA]

Well. Sorry, but a few days ago you asked us to back our claims with facts and data, and then you come here claiming you have a test/source telling that the lagg-3 was able to dive at 700kmh IAS without problems..

 

As I have never seen anything like that, I was genuinely wondering what source/test you had, and I would have gladly studied it.

 

 

Apparently. On one side saying 'I have a test/source' is enough to validate a claim ?

same planer

la5 test

[Brano]

I'm playing a bit the devil's advocate here, I'm sure the FW-190 is one of the fastest rolling WWII planes, but does this statement come mainly from its comparison with british and american planes?

Yes it does.There is nowhere mentioned that soviet pilots were shocked by Fw ability to roll in extraordinary way comparing to their planes.Nowhere in my 3 books about La5/7/Yak1-3.

[FZG_Merlin]

Okay, looks like the party is over. Han made a big effort to address some concerns, but he has other things to do than get pulled into discussion right now.

Thank you, honestly. But as you can see, he posted in English, so a translator is not needed.

same planerla5 test

Thanks a lot !

 

As I don't read Cyrillic, is the dive max speed indicated by the 693kmh ?

Edited October 14, 2014 by FZG_Immel

[FTC_Karaya]

Because G-2 have no extreme engine mode, and F-4 have. But both have combat mode. And in combat mode they have same power.

Combat mode for G-2 - 100% throttle

Combat mode for F-4 - 80% throttle

 

Both have combat modes but these do NOT have the same power because they feature entirely different engines. As I stated before Kampf & Steigleistung for the Bf109G-2 (1310PS) is more or less equivalent to Notleistung in the Bf109F-4 (1350PS). Kampfleistung for the Bf109F-4 would be around 1200PS...

Edited October 14, 2014 by JG4_Karaya

[=LD=Hethwill]

Lagg pilots were advise to pull out of the dives at 600 as per their pilot manual.

 

http://freechecklists.net/Resources/Lavochkin/LaGG-3/

[OSh1mA]

As I don't read Cyrillic, is the dive max speed indicated by the 693kmh ?

685 Edited October 14, 2014 by OSh1mA

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 That La-5 test is done in spring 1943. Gives plane serial and engine serial. Vmax = 685km/h and Vimax = 693km/h.

Edited October 14, 2014 by LLv34_Flanker

[FZG_Merlin]

685

Original quote :

 

Actually, we have flight test report on LaGG-3 which shows that it's diving a little more than 700 km/h IAS without problems.

So Han is obviously referring to another flight test, which I was interested in reading. It's the first time in my life that I hear about lagg being able to reach such speeds without problems.

Edited October 14, 2014 by FZG_Immel

[OSh1mA]

Original quote :

So?

[FZG_Merlin]

So?

So it is obviously not this flight test (the pic posted) he was referring to and that I was interested in reading/knowing

[Pringliano]

 

Only problem - that is not affect altitude indicator, it will in future.

 

I was about to say that :-)

 

Congratulations for your detailed explanation, and for IL2 BOS being ( now I know ) one of the two only flight simulators that actually simulate geopotential height!!!! The other, for those who may ask, is the recently released Boeing 747-400 series Precision simulator - Aerowinx PSX.

 

Good to know you will correct the altimeter code! It should really read 2300m then :-)

 

Remember guys, the "From High to Low, Watch Out Bellow", applies to both pressure and temperature. At lower temperatures ( and in this case extreme lower ... ) the atmosphere "shrinks" and the geopotential height is lower. Also, for the deviation now assumed in il2, the calculations look correct to me ;-)

Edited October 14, 2014 by jcomm

[Bando]

Han, there's also people who do trust the FM you and your team provide.

Perhaps those people are a not loud in all these threads, but they are there (I personally know quite a few).

 

I hope you do not give up to communicate the way you did in this thread, as I am convinced that the loud ones are being loud because they care about the sim.

 

Anyway, thanks for this thread and your answers. I really do appreciate it.

[OSh1mA]

So it is obviously not this flight test (the pic posted) he was referring to and that I was interested in reading/knowing

Sure, but both planes have same airframe.

[FZG_Merlin]

Of course. But 683 and a above 700kmh IAS without problems isn't the same thing, is it ?

 

That's why I think he was referring to another test, and I was interested in knowing which it was.

[Han]

Han, there's also people who do trust the FM you and your team provide.

Perhaps those people are a not loud in all these threads, but they are there (I personally know quite a few).

 

I hope you do not give up to communicate the way you did in this thread, as I am convinced that the loud ones are being loud because they care about the sim.

 

Anyway, thanks for this thread and your answers. I really do appreciate it.

 

Thank you. Anyway, my PM box is not banned.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Gonna take that document to be translated.

[FZG_Merlin]

Then again, they seem to have another document/flight test, specific about the lagg 3, that has the diving speed put above 700kmh IAS without problems.

 

This document provided up here was not the one mentioned by Han

[Bussard_x]

Thanks Han for this it's appreciated.

[Brano]

Why he should post here freely document they obtained and most probably had to pay for? Serious research costs money and time.It is not an easy google search for 100 times copy-pasted taken out of context anecdotal infos. 

I bought myself several books about La5/7/Yak1-3 with most recent infos from archives and unpublished data,photos.Why should I put the info here? Those books are available for everyone to buy.Publishing copyrighted info without permission is considered crime in many countries.

[FZG_Merlin]

Why he should post here freely document they obtained and most probably had to pay for? Serious research costs money and time.It is not an easy google search for 100 times copy-pasted taken out of context anecdotal infos.

I bought myself several books about La5/7/Yak1-3 with most recent infos from archives and unpublished data,photos.Why should I put the info here? Those books are available for everyone to buy.Publishing copyrighted info without permission is considered crime in many countries.

He doesn't have to provide anything. Simply indicating what source he is referring to (what book/archive) or simply posting the concerned part (dive max speed) would be sufficient.

 

Since we were all talking about claims and the need to back them up with sources, I thought it was natural to ask what he was referring to with that quote.

 

I hope you are not seriously claiming that it's a copyright issue. LoL

Edited October 14, 2014 by FZG_Immel

[II./JG77_Manu*]

"But i did another test, engine endurance. Right now the 190 ingame's engine is way to fragile. I did some testing.

 

According to this British Data Sheet http://www.wwiiaircr...rae-21dec43.pdf, which can be found on the site http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190a3.html the 30-min combat rating of the 190 was 1.34ATA at 2400 r.p.m. 

I just tested it, 100%fuel, no unlocks. Altitude was 500m, pressure 1.34ATA and rpm 2400, all like in the British test. Did the test twice, the engine once died after 18:42 minutes and the other time after 14:19 minutes. 

So only 50% of the absolute minimum it should endure in real life. 30 minutes combat rating means, that the engine should be well after 30 minutes with this rating in any case.

Rework here would be nice.

 

Then i wanted to test the 3-min emergency rating according to the datasheet, which is 2700rpm at 1.42ATA. I realised that the ingame Fw doesnt go to 1.42. When you fly full throttle it only goes to 1,40ATA. So i think rework is needed also here."

 

Han

this issue wasn't adressed. and this is definitely not a "not-believable source". This were actual REAL tests, by british (so definitely no german bias here!) engineers! So this source is waterproof! Of course, it doesn't prove, that every Fw190 could fly 1.34 "all day", but it should be at least possible in game, and not an engine failure after 15 minutes, that's just not believable.

Please fix this issue, and no excuses. There were definitely some 190-A3 with this performace out there

[Brano]

I am not claiming anything.Han is grown up men and he can do whatever he wants with infos he has.Post it or keep it for himself.I will for sure not insist on him to show it here on public forum.Repeatidly.

[FZG_Merlin]

Strawman.

 

I never asked him to show anything. I merely asked what was the source and where it came from. And I think it was only fair since this is completely new to me (and I'm prolly not the only one) and that in the last few days he has asked people with claims to back them up with sources and documents... I am genuinely interested. It's a nice new information to me. Certainly makes that lagg-3 appear less bad than it probably was described so far. 15 years ago I knew next to nothing about Russian warbrids, and since then I am really interested in learning new things about them.

 

You are certainly free to do what you want. Just as I am.

Edited October 14, 2014 by FZG_Immel

[Dakpilot]

 

"But i did another test, engine endurance. Right now the 190 ingame's engine is way to fragile. I did some testing.

 

According to this British Data Sheet http://www.wwiiaircr...rae-21dec43.pdf, which can be found on the site http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190a3.html the 30-min combat rating of the 190 was 1.34ATA at 2400 r.p.m. 

I just tested it, 100%fuel, no unlocks. Altitude was 500m, pressure 1.34ATA and rpm 2400, all like in the British test. Did the test twice, the engine once died after 18:42 minutes and the other time after 14:19 minutes. 

So only 50% of the absolute minimum it should endure in real life. 30 minutes combat rating means, that the engine should be well after 30 minutes with this rating in any case.

Rework here would be nice.

 

Then i wanted to test the 3-min emergency rating according to the datasheet, which is 2700rpm at 1.42ATA. I realised that the ingame Fw doesnt go to 1.42. When you fly full throttle it only goes to 1,40ATA. So i think rework is needed also here."

 

Han

this issue wasn't adressed. and this is definitely not a "not-believable source". This were actual REAL tests, by british (so definitely no german bias here!) engineers! So this source is waterproof! Of course, it doesn't prove, that every Fw190 could fly 1.34 "all day", but it should be at least possible in game, and not an engine failure after 15 minutes, that's just not believable.

Please fix this issue, and no excuses. There were definitely some 190-A3 with this performace out there

 

 

Try re-doing your test at 1.32 ATA  also can be found in many German documents as combat power....

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Han]

Items #11 and #12 were added to start post of this thread (thanks to Celestiale).

[Han]

Item #13 was added (thanks to JG4_Widukind ).

[Han]

All corrections were done, list was updated. Item #13 reason was corrected, but it's still was not FM but gauge issue.