109 Campaign - Grinding My Gears

[Y-29.Silky]

I've been working on my 109, and for a plane that makes you feel like you're kicking a puppy in multiplayer, I am struggling in the campaign mode. Here's what I've been experiencing so far..

 

Interception Missions >
- Squad calls out the enemy before you can see them, the Pe-2's are always roughly 6000m heading straight for you.

- Make a head on, or high angle pass = Good hits on Pe-2.
- Make a second run from high, with speed... Pe-2's soak up most of my ammo = Mission accomplished?
- Ai gunner snipes my engine
- Mission failed.

And no I don't sit on a bombers 6 like an idiot. But.. Pe-2's are fast, I don't have time to get a head of them and dive on them before they are already out of the target zone, so high speed 6 o'clock attacks seem to be the only option I have and keeping verticle angles. But even when 20mm rounds are pounding a Pe-2, their gunners end you quick. What finally made me lose my patience and post this is the result of my last mission..

There was about 6 Pe-2's this time, I make an attack run with a wingman in front of me... Get a new nice hits on one, start to pull away, the lead Pe-2's side gunner rips my paper wing off. Mission failed.. Even though 2 were damaged (per the requirements), and I could bail out as friendly ground forces were directly below. My pilot didn't die, was shot down over friendly territory, so why is it considered a failed mission just because I was shot down? Sure, I may have failed personally by losing a plane, but the over all mission was a success.

 

I know it's early, but I just had to vent this out, it's getting very frustrating, and it's reminding me of War Thunder.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Silky

[Finkeren]

You're sharing your experience with a lot of German pilots who got shot down by Pe-2s early in the war.

 

I personally like that attacking bombers involve an element of danger.

 

The inflexibility of having to reach the 'exit point' is a bit silly though. I'll grant you that.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Finkeren

[Double_Tap]

I feel your pain Silky.

I didn't realise they had that many carrots in Russia.

[Georgio]

Maybe it could be that if you fullfill the mission requirements and bail out successfully over friendly territory you get a mission pass, but not as much xp as if you'd made it to the exit?

[LLv24_Zami]

Silky that is familiar situtation for me too. Pe-2 gunners are really sharpshooters, have to be very careful when attacking them. Maybe a little bit too accurate but on the other hand it shouldnt be too easy.

 

Georgio that is a good proposal!

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 They are too good. And the mission should not automatically fail if you get damaged. If you can glide to own side of the front it could be counted as emergency landing. Now even I manage to land my damaged plane at OWN base it counts as emergency landing. Inflexible mission parameters.

[unreasonable]

It is not the hits so much that bother me - I certainly do not get hit on every attack on a Pe-2, it is the way a high deflection shot from a single MG can rip off your wing.

 

I have always felt that the MGs were doing far too much damage even when I was shooting them, now that I am on the receiving end I certainly feel that way!

 

Impossible to prove though without ingame tools.

[Finkeren]

S!

 

They are too good. And the mission should not automatically fail if you get damaged. If you can glide to own side of the front it could be counted as emergency landing. Now even I manage to land my damaged plane at OWN base it counts as emergency landing. Inflexible mission parameters.

It doesn't automatically fail. I've had my engine die on me lots of times and still be able to glide to the exit point. I still get the 50% penalty for the broken engine, but that really doesn't bother me that much.

 

The main point is, that it should be based on on which side of the front line you are when you land, not if you can reach some arbitrary point, and if you simply exit the sim when you get critical engine damage your survival depends on if you were in friendly or enemy air space. This works just fine in RoF and it puzzles me, that they made it this way in BoS.

[FZG_Merlin]

2 hours...

 

That is what it took me to get all the unlocks for the F4 last night..

 

Expert. Intercept mission. Short.

 

I make one frontal pass, and then Immelmann and I make 3/4 passes from behind and above. I fire from a long distance with gunpods.

 

Works almost every time. Do no get close to the bombers.

 

 

Of course, in my opinion I wasted two hours that will teach me nothing really useful that I didn't know already. But I wanted to do some AG missions on the syndicate server so it had to be done.

[RedGuard]

Same diffiiculties here.

Also, is it just me or are all the Bf 109 "Intercept" missions in SP Campaign away from the frontline ? The Pe2s seem to always be flying in from the West which, I assumed, should be a bit of a no-no.

 

Do you guys ever fly into Soviet territory for intercept in SP ?

 

Red

[Finkeren]

Same diffiiculties here.

Also, is it just me or are all the Bf 109 "Intercept" missions in SP Campaign away from the frontline ? The Pe2s seem to always be flying in from the West which, I assumed, should be a bit of a no-no.

 

Do you guys ever fly into Soviet territory for intercept in SP ?

 

Red

 

This happens because the planes you're intecepting always come at you directly head-on. Since all intercept missions happen on your side of the front, your flight path to the action point will often point in the opposite direction of the front line, and the enemy will therefore appear to come from the wrong direction. This is just one of many small exaples of how the campaign is not really created with accuracy in mind.

[Reflected]

I agree.

 

-AI gunners are way too good

-Campaign missions are always the same 

-Campaign criteria makes it even worse (bailout, etc...not possible so you can proceed)

[unreasonable]

Same diffiiculties here.

Also, is it just me or are all the Bf 109 "Intercept" missions in SP Campaign away from the frontline ? The Pe2s seem to always be flying in from the West which, I assumed, should be a bit of a no-no.

 

Do you guys ever fly into Soviet territory for intercept in SP ?

 

Red

Actually, given how fast Pe2s are and the limitations of german radar I would have thought that it was only possible to intercept them on the return leg, unless you were already airborn in a CAP. In which case they should already have bombed (if that is their mission). Come to think of it I have not noticed if they are carrying bombs or not, too busy dodging the gunners....

 

Just seen Finkeren's point, good observation. This could be changed within the current system by giving them your reciprocal heading +/- 90 degrees, would provide at least some variety.

Edited October 13, 2014 by unreasonable

[Finkeren]

Honestly I'm not sure I agree that the gunners are too good. At the moment I fly mostly intercept and ground attack (best ways to earn points) and I get shot down fairly often (propably get my engine killed 1 in every 4 missions) but only because I, in the heat of the moment, become target fixated and hang around my target for way too long. Almost every single time my engine takes a hit, I curse out my bad luck but then have to realize that I actually earned that.

 

When I'm actually careful and don't take unnecessary risks, I can attack with some degree of safety. Last night I did an intercept mission in the LaGG against 3 escorted He 111s. I held true to my "safe" attack patterns, fast, slashing attacks from 4 and 8 o'clock high (not outside the gunners' field of fire, but hard angles to shoot back from) and downed all 3 Heinkels and then took out the escorting 109s as well and all I got was a single hole in one of my wing tanks.

 

In the Fw 190 against Pe-2s it's even easier. Climb as soon as I reach the action point and make my attack from a near vertical dive. Now that conversion Works, I can aim for the cockpit with high accuracy and nearly always down one in each pass.

[Dakpilot]

2 hours...

 

That is what it took me to get all the unlocks for the F4 last night..

 

Expert. Intercept mission. Short.

 

I make one frontal pass, and then Immelmann and I make 3/4 passes from behind and above. I fire from a long distance with gunpods.

 

Works almost every time. Do no get close to the bombers.

 

 

Of course, in my opinion I wasted two hours that will teach me nothing really useful that I didn't know already. But I wanted to do some AG missions on the syndicate server so it had to be done.

 

You would have been better off doing Air to ground missions as soon as you get the first bombs (very early) then your 2 hour "grind" would have had some purpose    and your "Jabo" skills would have improved  unless you are experten..then you could have comlpeted much quicker..if you get Lemons make lemonade

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Dakpilot

[FZG_Merlin]

Honestly I'm not sure I agree that the gunners are too good. At the moment I fly mostly intercept and ground attack (best ways to earn points) and I get shot down fairly often (propably get my engine killed 1 in every 4 missions) but only because I, in the heat of the moment, become target fixated and hang around my target for way too long. Almost every single time my engine takes a hit, I curse out my bad luck but then have to realize that I actually earned that.

 

When I'm actually careful and don't take unnecessary risks, I can attack with some degree of safety. Last night I did an intercept mission in the LaGG against 3 escorted He 111s. I held true to my "safe" attack patterns, fast, slashing attacks from 4 and 8 o'clock high (not outside the gunners' field of fire, but hard angles to shoot back from) and downed all 3 Heinkels and then took out the escorting 109s as well and all I got was a single hole in one of my wing tanks.

 

In the Fw 190 against Pe-2s it's even easier. Climb as soon as I reach the action point and make my attack from a near vertical dive. Now that conversion Works, I can aim for the cockpit with high accuracy and nearly always down one in each pass.

Exactly this

[FZG_Merlin]

You would have been better off doing Air to ground missions as soon as you get the first bombs (very early) then your 2 hour "grind" would have had some purpose and your "Jabo" skills would have improved unless you are experten..then you could have comlpeted much quicker..if you get Lemons make lemonade

 

Cheers Dakpilot

LoL

 

I would kindly invite you to a multiplayer session..

 

My Jabo skills don't need any more SP training than my air combat skills... I've been doing this for almost 2 decades, and there is nothing that this SP campaign will teach me... MP is where it's at,

 

I doubt you can do it in less than 2 hours at normal speed. I did shoot down at least 1 or 2 planes (sometimes 3) in each interception mission.

 

I did one Jabo mission in which I destroyed a column, but it didn't bring as many xp points as the interceptions.

Edited October 13, 2014 by FZG_Immel

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I have always felt that the MGs were doing far too much damage even when I was shooting them, now that I am on the receiving end I certainly feel that way!

Personally I never felt them too good. Or maybe differently, not the low caliber like German 7.92 MG 17. Many times when I was out of cannons all with MG's I could do was causing a fuel leak and setting enemy on fire.

Never managed to rip off enemy wing with low caliber MG's.

 

Though 12.7 mm Berezin might be very effective. In fact it was effective and dangerous weapon. Though again, single 12.7 mm operated by gunner is something not that scary. Or shouldnt be. It's not B-17 filled with gunners.

 

 

Silky that is familiar situtation for me too. Pe-2 gunners are really sharpshooters, have to be very careful when attacking them. Maybe a little bit too accurate but on the other hand it shouldnt be too easy.

Point is they keep firing and hitting even when Pe-2 maneuvers or goes into dive. Or when I make some maneuvers, including pulling Negative G's and going under Pe-2. Lower gunner many times scored a hit into my engine or pilot, when doing that.

 

I also dislike the situation when bomber is being hit and fuel is leaking, engines smoking, etc. which vastly reduces my view of the enemy yet the gunner keeps shooting despite he cant see me. 

 

I finished many Interception missions, and more than gunners I dislike maneuvering Pe-2's. Even when heavily damaged, with one engine dead they keep avoiding and turning. But gunners are accurate, that is true. Point is that even my wingmen engaging bombers die easily. Or even better example, I flew plenty of escort missions. And on Expert its not hard to miss a plane, so my He-111 often were under fire. I rarely lost few, and almost always all intercepting LaGG's or Yak's went down. Like my protection was not needed.

[Dakpilot]

"

Point is they keep firing and hitting even when Pe-2 maneuvers or goes into dive. Or when I make some maneuvers, including pulling Negative G's and going under Pe-2. Lower gunner many times scored a hit into my engine or pilot, when doing that.

I also dislike the situation when bomber is being hit and fuel is leaking, engines smoking, etc. which vastly reduces my view of the enemy yet the gunner keeps shooting despite he cant see me. "

 

 

+1 This has always been a problem with ALL combatsims some development in these areas would be very welcome

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

Has anyone experienced where they've been too injured to open the cockpit or bail out? I did once and wondered if my game had just gone loopy.

 

Chief

[KoN_]

Not just the Pe-2 pilots also the AAA is sniper ...i was at 3000ft and got a direct hit ...in a slow turn ...lol...

yes i know it happened in war but come on every time you fly near positions you get hit . flak was used as a area weapon , down low and slow yes AAA would get good hits but up at 3000ft ...

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

In regards to attacking the pe2s-- I have no problem at all to down 2-3 PE every sortie without taking any damage....I always "weave", attacking from high 2-3 or 9-10 oclock, convergence set at 250, snapshot at hi speed at close range

[Finkeren]

Not just the Pe-2 pilots also the AAA is sniper ...i was at 3000ft and got a direct hit ...in a slow turn ...lol...

yes i know it happened in war but come on every time you fly near positions you get hit . flak was used as a area weapon , down low and slow yes AAA would get good hits but up at 3000ft ...

 

3000ft is pretty low. I think that AAA is too accurate and traverses too fast against lower altitude targets, but 3000ft is more or less a perfect altitude for medium/heavy flak to get you, especially if you fly in a straight line or even curve.

 

In the early chapters of the camapign the flak is even neutered and practically no threat at all.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Finkeren

[FlatSpinMan]

I really hope they don't tone down the defensive fire and the AAA. I've been hit by He111 gunners or Stuka gunners perhaps a couple of times, but generally find them easy prey. The Pe-2 is a fairly hot machine. Are you sure it's not that that makes it harder?

And as for flak, right now I want more. It may be as I'm still in chapter 1, though.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

In the early chapters of the camapign the flak is even neutered and practically no threat at all.

That is true. Airfield AA is not very effective, even in 109 when I had ground attack mission to destroy some stuff on airfield rarely AA was issue,

Different story is Train AA. In this case I always take 500 kg bomb in FW 190 and just try to drop it in the middle of the train, to kill front and back AA wagons. Just not give them chance to start shooting at you

[Finkeren]

I really hope they don't tone down the defensive fire and the AAA. I've been hit by He111 gunners or Stuka gunners perhaps a couple of times, but generally find them easy prey. The Pe-2 is a fairly hot machine. Are you sure it's not that that makes it harder?

And as for flak, right now I want more. It may be as I'm still in chapter 1, though.

Trust me: it gets tougher. Still within the realm of what's realistic.

 

As for the Pe-2: The speed and acceleration combined with fighter-like maneuverability was what took many German pilots unawares in 1941 and cost some of them their lives. The early Peshkas were a good deal faster than the later, more heavily armed and armoured, incarnations - about as fast as the Bf 109E. Early in the war the Pe-2s also mostly flew with their full bomb load internally making them quite fast even en route to target.

[[TWB]80hd]

AI (Bot) Gunners are never a good idea. Ever.

[unreasonable]

Slightly OT but, problem with flak accuracy is that people sometimes confuse the chance of them getting hit in an attack with the chance of the flak getting a hit.

 

Obviously if you are only one aircraft the chances are the same, but suppose you are in a formation of 4: the chance of the flak getting a hit with a given shot is (approximately) four times the chance that a specific plane will be hit.

 

Our BoS tendency to fly in very small formations (or often alone in MP) makes us underestimate how dangerous the flak actually is.

[Finkeren]

Obviously if you are only one aircraft the chances are the same, but suppose you are in a formation of 4: the chance of the flak getting a hit with a given shot is (approximately) four times the chance that a specific plane will be hit.

 

Well yeah, if the flak targets the formation as a whole, but then you have to take into account, that up to a point a larger formation also increases the chance of the flak scoring a hit at all. At lower altitudes 37 - 40mm AAA might target individual planes, which makes the chance of any single plane getting hit four times less, than if it had flown alone while the chance of the flak hitting anything at all stays pretty much the same.

[unreasonable]

Well yeah, if the flak targets the formation as a whole, but then you have to take into account, that up to a point a larger formation also increases the chance of the flak scoring a hit at all. At lower altitudes 37 - 40mm AAA might target individual planes, which makes the chance of any single plane getting hit four times less, than if it had flown alone while the chance of the flak hitting anything at all stays pretty much the same.

That is what I meant! (The bold part). On the low level flak I agree with you up to a point, but it depends on how the attack is carried out. If two planes strafing an airfield attack from opposite directions, or say 90% your point is valid. If they come in together the formation arithmetic will apply: ground fire is not generally that accurate.

[Finkeren]

On the low level flak I agree with you up to a point, but it depends on how the attack is carried out. If two planes strafing an airfield attack from opposite directions, or say 90% your point is valid. If they come in together the formation arithmetic will apply: ground fire is not generally that accurate.

If the planes are low/close enough to be targeted individually then the chance of a missed shot accidentally hitting another plane is quite small even if the aircraft are flying in formation, because the miss will usually go very close past the intented target.

[unreasonable]

If the planes are low/close enough to be targeted individually then the chance of a missed shot accidentally hitting another plane is quite small even if the aircraft are flying in formation, because the miss will usually go very close past the intented target.

 

We will have to agree to disagree about this - I maintain that low level flak is an area weapon to all intents and purposes, and I think you overestimate the ability of low level flak crews to aim under wartime conditions, especially when the target is not flying straight towards the gun.  I am sure you have seen the wartime films taken from US Navy ships while the kamikaze attacks are going in: the flak is all over the place, and this is when the plane is heading towards the guns, there is only one target, there is no terrain masking the approach, the gunners are using a proportion of proximity fuzes and sophisticated sights.

[Georgio]

Years ago I used to know an old lady, she was a sweet little thing all smiles and grey hair. One day we were talking about the war as I knew she was based on the local area as a WAAF.

 

She told me about all the japes she got upto especially with the local ack-ack boys. She told me about one day when she was mucking around on one of the guns and a doodlebug came buzzing along, she insisted on taking a shot at this one as it flew by and with one single shot she scored a direct hit destroying the bomb instantly in mid-air.

 

Needless to say, one of the gunners had to quickly jump on the gun and make out he'd fired the shot, but it was Glenys and even then she wore thick glasses as she was as short-sighted as a bat.

 

Now you could say that her one shot was a complete fluke a billion to one chance, or you could say that actually, shooting down a straight flying object at a few thousand feet isn't actually all that hard. :D

 

I know which I'd prefer to go with and that may account for why modern planes always try and stay above 10k in a known flak zone.

[=AVG=Zombie]

Looks like german pilots dont like to get shot down..............

[-TBC-AeroAce]

If u think its bad in the 109 try it in the 190 which at 6000m is a brick 

[Dakpilot]

We will have to agree to disagree about this - I maintain that low level flak is an area weapon to all intents and purposes, and I think you overestimate the ability of low level flak crews to aim under wartime conditions, especially when the target is not flying straight towards the gun.  I am sure you have seen the wartime films taken from US Navy ships while the kamikaze attacks are going in: the flak is all over the place, and this is when the plane is heading towards the guns, there is only one target, there is no terrain masking the approach, the gunners are using a proportion of proximity fuzes and sophisticated sights.

 

However the ground at Stalingrad was probably moving around a little less than the AA platform on a US navy ship taking evasive action at sea

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[unreasonable]

Years ago I used to know an old lady, she was a sweet little thing all smiles and grey hair. One day we were talking about the war as I knew she was based on the local area as a WAAF.

 

She told me about all the japes she got upto especially with the local ack-ack boys. She told me about one day when she was mucking around on one of the guns and a doodlebug came buzzing along, she insisted on taking a shot at this one as it flew by and with one single shot she scored a direct hit destroying the bomb instantly in mid-air.

 

Needless to say, one of the gunners had to quickly jump on the gun and make out he'd fired the shot, but it was Glenys and even then she wore thick glasses as she was as short-sighted as a bat.

 

Now you could say that her one shot was a complete fluke a billion to one chance, or you could say that actually, shooting down a straight flying object at a few thousand feet isn't actually all that hard. :D

 

I know which I'd prefer to go with and that may account for why modern planes always try and stay above 10k in a known flak zone.

 

Um because modern planes are facing radar guided SAMs and AAA with proximity fused warheads?  Unlike WW2 AAA which took hundreds or even thousands of rounds to shoot down each aircraft even when firing at formations of 30+ aircraft the size of B17s flying straight and level on a bombing run?

 

WW2 flak was a numbers game, and some grasp of basic statistics is necessary to make any informed judgement about it, just as you need some knowledge of aerodynamics to make any sensible contribution to a discussion about FMs (which is why I usually stay out of them, btw, except to ask questions occasionally of the people who do know what they are talking about).

 

Of course you are free to make your own judgements based on the alledged memories of little old ladies, good luck with that.

[KoN_]

No body likes being shot down ask any pilot , ..lol...