Ground handling- How it is flawed, why it matters.

[chris455]

Gents,

 

Because of the extra points one achieves for takeoffs and landing, I have spent a few hours now attempting to master ground handling in the Fw-190.

I am near to believing that the ground handling model is flawed.

 

Bear with me?

 

In my example, the Focke-Wulf, each main wheel is provided with a brake. The engine, providing thrust for taxiing and handling, is located inboard of each main wheel. Thus, it is expected that:

 

1. An application of brake to either wheel (not both at the same time) while at the same time applying throttle, should cause the aircraft to pivot towards the braked wheel.

 

2. That said pivoting enables the pilot to steer the A/C on the ground , either to the right or the left.

 

This isn't happening. I invite others to try it out.

 

What I am experiencing is that while trying to taxi at low speed or stopped, application of either toebrake, especially the right toe brake, stops the aircraft in its tracks, irrespective of how much throttle is applied. No pivoting effect is possible.

 

This means that making right turns is next to impossible at low speeds, due to torque effect.

 

Tail wheel locked or unlocked doesn't make a difference. And no, binding/unbinding of Russian brake commands doesn't help either. 

 

The model must be altered to provide for this real-world pivoting affect if we are to have a sim that models ground handling correctly.

 

If someone finds a solution to this, or sees a flaw in my reasoning, please share. But please also experiment first to see exactly what I am talking about.

 

Thanks -

Edited October 12, 2014 by chris455

[Finkeren]

You can't use the Fw 190 as an example of issues with ground handling in BoS. It's ground handling has been dodgy from day one.

[FZG_Merlin]

I can taxi it very well.

 

my brakes make me steer left or right alright.

 

Lock the tail wheel by pulling the stick. unlock it by pushing the stick.

 

do you need a video or a track with explanations ? Id gladly help

[chris455]

I can taxi it very well.

 

my brakes make me steer left or right alright.

 

Lock the tail wheel by pulling the stick. unlock it by pushing the stick.

 

do you need a video or a track with explanations ? Id gladly help

Yes Immel, that would be great. One question- from a standstill, can you pivot the machine to the right? Say to turn into a revetment?

Edited October 12, 2014 by chris455

[CUJO_1970]

Yes Immel, that would be great. One question- from a standstill, can you pivot the machine to the right? Say to turn into a revetment?

 

I can do this with tail wheel unlocked (stick forward) + full right rudder + right wheel brake (> key) + open throttle.

 

You have to be ready though because the tail will swing around so (once you get it moving) fast that if you aren't ready to counter-act it (left brake+rudder+decrease throttle, lock tail wheel as needed)  you can go into a ground loop.

[Dakpilot]

I think the only relevant question is, are you able to pivot the Real aircraft from a standstill in both directions....

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Crump]

I think the only relevant question is, are you able to pivot the Real aircraft from a standstill in both directions....

  

Yes.....

 

Differential braking and a castoring tail wheel make conventional gear aircraft extremely maneuverable on the ground compared to other arrangements.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Crump

[chris455]

Yes.....

 

Differential braking and a castoring tail wheel make conventional gear aircraft extremely maneuverable on the ground compared to other arrangements.

Yes- but without the ability to pivot, maneuvering on the ground  is much, much more difficult. And unrealistic.

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

Yes- but without the ability to pivot, maneuvering on the ground  is much, much more difficult. And unrealistic.

that's because your used to ground crew holding your wing so you can turn.

[chris455]

that's because your used to ground crew holding your wing so you can turn.

Maybe in a Sopwith Camel, but in a bird with diff brakes, unnecessary. 

Edited October 12, 2014 by chris455

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

Maybe in a Sopwith Camel, but in a bird with diff brakes, unnecessary. 

well that's the way Russia made them. I think your having a power problem? but I have an issue only with the IL2 I cant get it to turn left unless I have full prop pitch and a lot of power.

Edited October 12, 2014 by 71st_Mastiff

[chris455]

well that's the way Russia made them. I think your having a power problem? but I have an issue only with the IL2 I cant get it to turn left unless I have full prop pitch and a lot of power.

Mastiff, please, forgive me if I am misunderstanding- but you are aware of the different principles in braking of the Russian vs German rides? 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Basically in Russian birds you have a separate brake handle and then with pressing the pedals you control which side brakes. If just holding brake handle both wheels brake. In German planes there is no separate brake handle, just press appropriate toe brake.

[chris455]

OK,

If you have DCS: P-51 Mustang or DCS: Fw-190 "Dora", try the following as I just did:

 

1. Start the quick mission "Takeoff at Batumi"

2. Release your parking brake.

3. Apply either left or right toebrake.

4. Apply power.

 

The aircraft will pivot in place towards the braked wheel.

This is how aircraft behave in DCS (and also FSX, and undoubtedly numerous other flightsims)

This is how real life aircraft also behave.

This is what is not happening in BoS.

[PKH]

I noticed something which may be related. I used to have brake on the right pedal for the russian planes, and left & right pedal set up for use with the german. This no longer works, as the single brake is now also used for german planes and brakes with both the left & right wheel. I have to remove the single brake binding when using german planes.

[Uriah]

I don't know about how a real FW 190-A behaves.  And it does seem in this game to be exaggerated to me.  But I don't know.  And from what I've read from an historical English report made and posted here it does seem they were rather difficult. 

 

It took me more then several hours but I did learn to maneuver that plain quite nicely.   Now that I have not flow it in a month it would take me a while again.

Here is the historical report.  Sadly, I did not record the author.

"

I moved the stick to an aft position in order to lock the tailwheel, applied 10 degrees of flap, set the elevator trimmer to neutral and the propeller pitch to AUTO and gently opened up the engine.

I encountered some tendency to swing to port (pilot’s left) but easily held this on the rudder, and using 2,700 rpm and 23.5 lb (1.6 atas) boost, found the run to be much the same as that of the Spitfire Mk IX. Unstick speed was 112 mph (180 km/h) and after retracting the undercarriage by depressing the appropriate button, I reduced boost to 21.3 lb (1.45 atas) and at 143 mph (230 km/h) activated the pushbutton which raised the flaps. I then set up a climbing speed of 161 mph (260 km/h) using 2,500 rpm and this gave a climb rate of 3,150 ft/min (16m/sec)."

[Gort]

If you map a brake axis to activate the Russian wheel brakes, then when pressing a brake pedal in the German airplanes results in both brakes being applied.

 

Ensure that the Russian brake is not mapped to your pedal axis (I just use a button for Russian planes), Map only the German toe brakes to your controller brake axis and try again.

 

Straightforward to look at the cockpit pedals to confirm the behavior.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Victory205

[chris455]

If you map a brake axis to activate the Russian wheel brakes, then when pressing a brake pedal in the German airplanes results in both brakes being applied.

 

Ensure that the Russian brake is not mapped to your pedal axis (I just use a button for Russian planes), Map only the German toe brakes to your controller brake axis and try again.

 

Straightforward to look at the cockpit pedals to confirm the behavior.

Victory, you are correct, I tried this, and it functions as you say. However, it must be regarded as a workaround, as I have proven using DCS and FSX that the braking syetem in BoS is flawed and needs to be addressed.

[aletto]

When I first tried to taxi in the F4, I quickly realised that the rudder is more effective at turning the aircraft than the brakes, even at speeds where I don't think I should have rudder authority.

In fact, trying to turn right using the right toe brake was a futile task, the plane wouldn't move at all.

 

It feels very different compared to DCS which I assume has better FMs.

[II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33]

You can't use the Fw 190 as an example of issues with ground handling in BoS. It's ground handling has been dodgy from day one.

The 190 is the closest thing to a real tail dragger that I've ever flown in a sim. Ground handling a tail dragger in the real world is a challenge. I hope they don't dumb it down like they have the 109,that plane is way to easy to take off and land the real 109 was a challenge due to its narrow gear track. In fact more 109s were lost in take off and landing accidents then were lost in combat the ground handling in BOS is too easy.

[bzc3lk]

Victory, you are correct, I tried this, and it functions as you say. However, it must be regarded as a workaround, as I have proven using DCS and FSX that the braking syetem in BoS is flawed and needs to be addressed.

It is not " a workaround ", it is as per the full size aircraft. The Russian aircraft use a handle to apply the brakes  and the rudder inputs apply the braking differential.

 

 

                                           http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/1940-lagg-3-wheel-brake-control/

Edited October 13, 2014 by bzc3lk

[chris455]

It is not " a workaround ", it is as per the full size aircraft. The Russian aircraft use a handle to apply the brakes  and the rudder inputs apply the braking differential.

 

 

                                           http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/1940-lagg-3-wheel-brake-control/

Pardon, it would have to beconsidered a workaround for a/c with diff brakes, as they are not modelled correctly in BoS. See my post above re DCS and FSX. 

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

I'm just here for    

 

I had a tough time with the 190 here too. In DCS not as bad. I can turn it in there. Low RPM's and lots of footwork to get it going right. I did get it but it took once,lots of times to get it.

[Gort]

Victory, you are correct, I tried this, and it functions as you say. However, it must be regarded as a workaround, as I have proven using DCS and FSX that the braking syetem in BoS is flawed and needs to be addressed.

It will at least be less confusing for you now.

 

I just assume that they are modeling slush in the system, and frozen water in the hydraulic system.

[bzc3lk]

Pardon, it would have to beconsidered a workaround for a/c with diff brakes, as they are not modelled correctly in BoS. See my post above re DCS and FSX. 

 Read the link I posted again.  Bos is modelled as per the  prototype  and  if DCS and FSX do not incorporate the brake and differential application as per the prototype Russian aircraft , then I would not consider them as appropriate yard sticks for comparison. Since when has DCS modelled the Lagg 3 for comparison? That  is the "workaround"  braking system in question here?

[69th_chuter]

I consider it a work around in the sense that one has to verify correct control assignment before changing sides.  By contrast, the trim adjustment between sides (elevator tab vs stabilizer) are separated but have no need to be.

[bzc3lk]

I consider it a work around in the sense that one has to verify correct control assignment before changing sides.  By contrast, the trim adjustment between sides (elevator tab vs stabilizer) are separated but have no need to be.

You do not have to verify any control assignments before changing sides . All you have to do is use your rudder pedals for brake application / differential braking on the german aircraft and remember to use your assigned braking button and rudder pedal inputs ( differential ) on the Russian aircraft. I have these controls mapped on my game and have no issues as mentioned by many people on the forum. Once I  separated the the braking actuation and differential on the Russian aircraft I  am able to land the LaGG 3 with little difficulty and only using half the runway . I do not have to re-map any button assignments when swapping aircraft. If the prototype uses the Russian method of differential braking, then the game automatically uses your  mapped button assignments.  You do not have to fiddle with re-mapping buttons when changing sides , just remember to use the different braking and steering methods as per the real aircraft  .

 

      The link below explains how the Lagg 3 braking system works and why I have mapped my assignments to mimic this method of braking.

 

 

                                                       http://forum.il2stur...-brake-control/

Edited October 13, 2014 by bzc3lk

[FZG_Merlin]

Yes Immel, that would be great. One question- from a standstill, can you pivot the machine to the right? Say to turn into a revetment?

Solved ?

Edited October 13, 2014 by FZG_Immel

[Dakpilot]

Not until we see a vid, or description from a real pilot of an  FW190 A3 pivoting around the braked wheel from standstill in both directions and a vid in BoS of the same.... Whether that would be done, or attempted in real life is another matter...from experience a bit of forward momentum would be used to turn an aircraft, and groundcrews would push an aircraft out of a tight spot..not use high throttle (prob on a cold engine) and create massive propwash in a confined area

 

This is the ONLY way to finish this, just because you can do it in DCS or FSX is irrelevant  and simply opinion

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

When I first tried to taxi in the F4, I quickly realised that the rudder is more effective at turning the aircraft than the brakes, even at speeds where I don't think I should have rudder authority.

In fact, trying to turn right using the right toe brake was a futile task, the plane wouldn't move at all.

 

It feels very different compared to DCS which I assume has better FMs.

 

This is the same with me in the 109. Left works fine but the right is useless. And as for the 190,i've been fought that the toe tapping sig zag is the norm for taxing it in a none straight line.

 

Chief

[FZG_Merlin]

Not until we see a vid, or description from a real pilot of an  FW190 A3 pivoting around the braked wheel from standstill in both directions and a vid in BoS of the same.... Whether that would be done, or attempted in real life is another matter...from experience a bit of forward momentum would be used to turn an aircraft, and groundcrews would push an aircraft out of a tight spot..not use high throttle (prob on a cold engine) and create massive propwash in a confined area

 

This is the ONLY way to finish this, just because you can do it in DCS or FSX is irrelevant  and simply opinion

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

i agree with this

[Matt]

Not until we see a vid, or description from a real pilot of an  FW190 A3 pivoting around the braked wheel from standstill in both directions and a vid in BoS of the same....

That was actually strictly forbidden.

 

But it's possible in BoS, if you set prop pitch to 12:00 or higher and give ~30% throttle while holding one brake paddle. In both directions.

[FZG_Merlin]

anyway. here is the video showing what is claimed to be impossible is clearly possible.especially with the wide tracked FW-190

 

http://youtu.be/EJnjiOO8gn0

[=LD=Hethwill]

IF you see the A5 and A8's on Heritage and other collections, the taxiing is done mostly through the left turn and over compensating the right pivot with big tail sail. You have a few videos showing it. Shame there is none from the cockpit view.

 

In one of them he pivots full left ( as it is easier ) and brakes and rudders to straighten it up.

 

I think you can find them easy on the tube.

 

In game, well, a simple rev up will make it get our of control, same as the 109 or an La-5. You can pivot on the spot pretty good and most of the times unintended at start of career.

Edited October 13, 2014 by =LD=Hethwill_Khan

[Dakpilot]

anyway. here is the video showing what is claimed to be impossible is clearly possible.especially with the wide tracked FW-190

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to put up the vid, Facts rather than hearsay..always the better option    I think half of the problems with taxiing are related to having "Russian" brakes mapped to wrong input with pedals in use

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[FZG_Merlin]

yep. they should really deactivate the general  'wheel brakes' axis for german planes, so that you can set one pedal brake for russian planes.

 

right now, i have deactivated any pedal brake for russian planes, otherwise I can't have both left and right wheel brakes working indipendently on the german planes.

 

 

Also, to achieve what is show in the video. for that you MUST unlock the tailwheel. by corresponding key in the 109, and with pushing the stick in the 190

Edited October 13, 2014 by FZG_Immel

[[TWB]80hd]

The problem is you have to give it a certain amount of throttle before hitting the brake.... it's not that taxiing in the 190 is impossible, it's that it simply defies physics and is a flaw in the engine.

 

If you START by holding down just the right brake, and then throttle up, watch what happens. 

 

That's not kosher.

[FZG_Merlin]

Ill try

[FZG_Merlin]

The problem is you have to give it a certain amount of throttle before hitting the brake.... it's not that taxiing in the 190 is impossible, it's that it simply defies physics and is a flaw in the engine.

 

If you START by holding down just the right brake, and then throttle up, watch what happens. 

 

That's not kosher.

 

I dont know what your problem. it works for me. I dont have to give anything before hitting the brake.

 

 

left or right brakes ON, corresponding rudder input, throttling up, and here it goes as soon as the engine revs up. no forward movement needed.

 

 

 

 

are you claiming that you want to do it without rudder input ? seems to me that pilots always use their rudders on the ground. it helps when you blow it with your prop wash.

Edited October 13, 2014 by FZG_Immel

[[TWB]80hd]

I do go full rudder... full right rudder, full right brake (no soviet brake problem), ease throttle up to say 30%, plane goes straight as an arrow right into the tents.

 

If I get going, then use brake/rudder combo, I don't have problems.

 

I will get in tonight and give it a whirl again, it's been a bit since I have flown.