Developer Diary, Part 82

[ST_ami7b5]

I only see the campaign as it is now (as intended) as an introduction for newcomers..and as that it is really excellent. The "meat and potatoes" will come from user made campaigns...just like old IL-2 etc.

 

Cheers Dakpilot

What prevented BoS team from using meat and potatoes from IL-2 1946?

It's a shame the immersion from IL-2 1946 SP is uncomparable to BoS.

And there are no 1946 secrets. Just watch and re-analyze 1946's campaigns an success is granted.

Only, if the target audience is different.

But that audience is used to FTP (not paying $100 - ok - 95), unlocks, and all that ... wait...

[=CFC=Conky]

Hello all,

 

Regarding the GFMD (Great FM Debate  ), I remember when the 'original' IL2 sim came out, the aircraft were an order of magnitude more tricky to fly from previous WW2 sims. The kites in BoS are that much trickier to handle than those of IL2 1946, even with mods. So, looking at the big picture, we have a sim/game with much more 'realistic' for lack of a better word, flight models than previous sims (the DCS series notwithstanding). 

 

In my opinion, that's more important than focusing in on a few small details about aircraft performance. For those who believe that it's the pilot, not the plane (using best Chuck Yeager voice  ), small differences in things like roll rates or acceleration should not be immersion killers. A few small tweaks here and there would be nice but right now I'm good to go. When the full version of BoS is finally released, I believe it will still be pretty good value for my 95 bucks. Oh, and I'm not a fanboi, after years of flying the virtual skies, both on a pc and full flight airliner sims, I simply have a different level of expectation regarding them.

 

Good hunting.

Edited October 13, 2014 by CFC_Conky

[APIKalimba]

it's all fact.

 

Yeah...I was quoting your response as facts Bongo. 

[FZG_Merlin]

S!

 

 Falcon 4.0 and Secret Weapons of The Luftwaffe, EAW...

Janes F-15 added to that list

[APIKalimba]

Don't know where this 90% figure came from, but I would be rather careful with that.....10% on the low side of accuracy for one model and 10% on the high side for another =20% difference or 100kmh difference on two 500kph aircraft

 

Just saying be careful what you wish for lol

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

The 90% accuracy comes from Han's response :  average 2-5 % margin of error for the FM.  So make it +/- 5%, you get the 10% " inaccuracy" for the FM.

 

And I presume it concerns all aspects of FM...Not just air speed... 

[DD_bongodriver]

Yeah...I was quoting your response as facts Bongo. 

 

[Dakpilot]

The 90% accuracy comes from Han's response :  average 2-5 % margin of error for the FM.  So make it +/- 5%, you get the 10% " inaccuracy" for the FM.

 

And I presume it concerns all aspects of FM...Not just air speed... 

 

I'll be happy with the 2.5% error then

 

 

S!

 

 Falcon 4.0

 

Was that released with a great campaign or was it not fixed by community and the whole thing went wrong for devs due to the complex campaign in the first place?

 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited October 13, 2014 by Dakpilot

[Finkeren]

feel of flight excellent, graphics nice, FM good IMHO, SP disaster.

I hear you, but still those are the absolute core elements that are in place. That's more than enough to keep me here for the duration. SP content will improve with or without the devs participation, it's a virtual guarantee.

 

Heck, somebody picked up the rusty wreck that was ClOD and restored it to flying condition. Compared to that the posibilities for BoS are nearly limitless.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

My recollection is the opposite.

I'm fairly sure we've had a developer state that all planes are factory fresh with all planes of the same marque sharing identical characteristics.

 

I may have missed a post though, so would welcome a link where a random element has been discussed.

That was also said but it was in relation to random engine failures not individual aircraft manufacturing standards and performance. Not sure I could find the quote.

Edited October 13, 2014 by HerrMurf

[DD_bongodriver]

 

 

Compared to that the posibilities for BoS are nearly limitless.

 

How? at least with Clod we will see new theatres and aircraft, BOS will always be BOS.....maybe one day the snow will melt.

[dragon76]

I hear you, but still those are the absolute core elements that are in place. That's more than enough to keep me here for the duration. SP content will improve with or without the devs participation, it's a virtual guarantee.

Heck, somebody picked up the rusty wreck that was ClOD and restored it to flying condition. Compared to that the posibilities for BoS are nearly limitless.

Love both CLOD and BOS but CLOD engine is more capable than that of BOS (mission wise). Not to mention ME. Night and day mate.

[Finkeren]

How? at least with Clod we will see new theatres and aircraft, BOS will always be BOS.....maybe one day the snow will melt.

 

BoS at launch will be a fully functional sim. Not without its flaws and lacking in SP content, but playable on most systems and quite polished and well presented. ClOD at launch had next to nothing yet still turned out rather enjoyable.

 

 

I will bet a DCS Normandy map, that we'll see a completely new map for BoS before we'll see one for ClOD.

[Leaf]

How? at least with Clod we will see new theatres and aircraft, BOS will always be BOS.....maybe one day the snow will melt.

 

Your argument makes no sense. If post-release felxibility is defined by name, then CloD is stuck on the English coast as much as BoS is stuck in Stalingrad. 

There is future for both, as much as you'd like BoS not to have one.

Edited October 13, 2014 by 19te.Leaf

[[DBS]El_Marta]

The first missions of "Wings over Waves" and "Rebirth of Honor" third party single player campaigns for il2 were about initial pilot training in a non combat situation. You had to fullfill basic tasks like take off / landing, navigation, carrier landing, dogfight practice a.so..

 

What we are seeing now in BOS is a very basic SP campaign using trigger mechanics on navigation and combat events for granting experience.

 

What I am fantasising about in the moment are those mechanics being used also in multiplayer training missions, which can be flown together as a squad: take off and landing in formation following a certain circuit pattern (overhead break), target ranges with practice targets for ground attack, level and dive bombing (accuracy and target saturation with group and single attack of bombers), dogfight training, navigation at night and in bad weather (high and low level), bombing and navigating with strong winds with instruments only, air race circuit a.s.o..

Edited October 13, 2014 by El_Marta

[Dakpilot]

How? at least with Clod we will see new theatres and aircraft, BOS will always be BOS.....maybe one day the snow will melt.

 

In the video of the campaign discussion Devs talked of hope for Okinawa, Moscow, Kursk, Western front etc. campaigns to be added in future....I don't really think CloD has copyright for expansion  LoL

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[BFsSmurfy]

Rebirth of Honour was very good, had a story, a tangible pilot and a good selection of missions. Let someone else do the campaign please, Desastersoft??? or give the community the tools to do it themselves and a Ded Server so we can do what we like when we like without having it forced upon us.

[CIA_Yankee_]

How? at least with Clod we will see new theatres and aircraft, BOS will always be BOS.....maybe one day the snow will melt.

 

Hum, what?

 

The campaign interface was specifically designed to require selecting the campaign you want to play. This obviously means they are planning to add new campaigns (and perhaps allow modders to add campaign directly to the interface).

 

Furthermore, you're comparing a sim that depends on 3rd party modders to one with an ACTUAL development team working on it, which will ALSO benefit from third party modders.

 

Seems like you're being very generous towards CloD, but refusing to entertain the concept that what CloD received (massive 3rd party support) is something that could easily also apply to BoS (on top of BoS having an actual dev team working on it).

[Marauder]

I quoted a part that I know is wrong.

By using a partial quote you unfortunately missed a couple of important conditions. It's like someone stating 1+1=2 with you quoting and disagreeing with 1=2. I'm not sure what you do this for.

[DD_bongodriver]

In the video of the campaign discussion Devs talked of hope for Okinawa, Moscow, Kursk, Western front etc. campaigns to be added in future....I don't really think CloD has copyright for expansion  LoL

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

We have been told many things yes.

By using a partial quote you unfortunately missed a couple of important conditions. It's like someone stating 1+1=2 with you quoting and disagreeing with 1=2. I'm not sure what you do this for.

 

I didn't miss anything that corrected the inaccuracy of the quoted part, your sentence was closer to 1+1=17

Edited October 13, 2014 by DD_bongodriver

[DD_bongodriver]

 

 

I will bet a DCS Normandy map, that we'll see a completely new map for BoS before we'll see one for ClOD.

 

The race is on!

[Marauder]

I didn't miss anything that corrected the inaccuracy of the quoted part, your sentence was closer to 1+1=17

To spell it out for you: The same true air speed you want to fly at down low and up high will not give you the same indicated air speed and same control forces I stated as a condition.

[DD_bongodriver]

To spell it out for you: The same true air speed you want to fly at down low and up high will not give you the same indicated air speed and same control forces I stated as a condition.

 

To spell it out for you, the same indicated airspeed at 'any' height and 'any' temperature will give the same rate of roll, true airspeed does not even need to be mentioned as it is completely irrelevant.

[=CFC=Conky]

Hello all,

 

Further to my last, regarding fm balancing between aircraft, I believe it's necessary due to the lack of historical balancing factors, like numbers. On the whole, at least during the Stalingrad campaign, German aircraft were superior to their VVS counterparts. If the kites in BoS were not balanced a bit, it would soon become almost pointless to fly for the VVS online; going up against experienced mp folks in clearly superior machines without the historical benefit of overwhelming numbers (to use one example and to paraphrase a Russian expression: 'Quantity has a quality of its own'), would get boring pretty fast for a VVS player in my opinion. It doesn't matter quite so much for the sp campaign, but I believe it does for mp.

 

Good hunting.

[Trinkof]

Hello all,

 

Further to my last, regarding fm balancing between aircraft, I believe it's necessary due to the lack of historical balancing factors, like numbers. On the whole, at least during the Stalingrad campaign, German aircraft were superior to their VVS counterparts. If the kites in BoS were not balanced a bit, it would soon become almost pointless to fly for the VVS online; going up against experienced mp folks in clearly superior machines without the historical benefit of overwhelming numbers (to use one example and to paraphrase a Russian expression: 'Quantity has a quality of its own'), would get boring pretty fast for a VVS player in my opinion. It doesn't matter quite so much for the sp campaign, but I believe it does for mp.

 

Good hunting.

Not agreed at all : the best solution regarding balance AND history, would be to have the correct FM, but an asymetric autobalance, preventing german to be more numerous than VVS.

 

Tweaking FM for balance would just cause all the community to leave the game.

 

Regarding balance, for 777 quickly moving to the next evolutions of planes we do have now (Yak9, La5F, adding a P39 - vs FWA5 - 109G4 and IAR80) would easly balance things

[VRPilot]

what's the fuzz with the 190? does it roll slow? no. It matches the roll rate quite good, it's just the initial roll that "feels" off compared to other sims. Bring numbers about "initial roll" and stop acting like little girls. Instead of one or two degres per second, I would like to have a working engine between 2-5k 

[ducs]

Hello all,

 

Further to my last, regarding fm balancing between aircraft, I believe it's necessary due to the lack of historical balancing factors, like numbers. On the whole, at least during the Stalingrad campaign, German aircraft were superior to their VVS counterparts. If the kites in BoS were not balanced a bit, it would soon become almost pointless to fly for the VVS online; going up against experienced mp folks in clearly superior machines without the historical benefit of overwhelming numbers (to use one example and to paraphrase a Russian expression: 'Quantity has a quality of its own'), would get boring pretty fast for a VVS player in my opinion. It doesn't matter quite so much for the sp campaign, but I believe it does for mp.

 

Good hunting.

 

 

With regards to FM's. I don't care about balance, I care about historical accuracy.  

 

The balance you want has no place in a decent sim.

 

Balance in a historical sim should look more like aircraft availability, airfield availabilty, ammo/armaments availability and team numbers.

 

FM "Balance" interjects opinions and personal feeling into FM's and leads to major design flaws that deviate from actual tactics used during the time. Planes are never evenly matched spec wise but they do have strengths and deficiencies. This is why each air force develops its own tactics based on their machines capabilities. 

 

This is why I don't play things like War Thunder. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by [TWB]ducs

[LLv44_Mprhead]

I can find you plenty of memoirs of people flying Spit. mk. v's in 1941/42 who mention the superior speed of the FW and the advantage it gave to the LW over France.  Once the Spit mk. IX reaches general service these fears cease.  Did the FW "roll away" from the Spit mk. IX successfully?  It should have done as the Spit shared the same wing as it's slower predecessor.  I've never seen any mention of this. 

 

Have you heard about clipped wing spitfires? I would think that there was some reason to produce those? I have been under the impression that the reason was to counter FW 190 advantage in roll rate.

[DigitalEngine]

Ju-52 Flyable? I'll pay, as really prefer flying the heavy's!!

Nothing like a fist full of throttles....how about the Me-323 anyone...?

[LukeFF]

With all due respect your game being test flown by very old test pilots doesn't mean much. The human memory is a frighteningly fail-able thing, and age only makes matters worse.

 

I don't believe that having a 90 year old veteran with a failing memory is an appropriate way to 'verify' the accuracy of aircraft data. Even the sharpest of minds and bodies at a youthful age suffer from false reports and memory recollection.

 

"Young" pilots have also flown the planes Han has referenced in his post. That's easily verifiable by looking at the first development updates.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[=CFC=Conky]

Not agreed at all : the best solution regarding balance AND history, would be to have the correct FM, but an asymetric autobalance, preventing german to be more numerous than VVS.

 

Tweaking FM for balance would just cause all the community to leave the game.

 

Regarding balance, for 777 quickly moving to the next evolutions of planes we do have now (Yak9, La5F, adding a P39 - vs FWA5 - 109G4 and IAR80) would easly balance things

 

Hi LAL_Trinkof,

 

Perhaps, but then the asymmetric auto-balance, if historical would likely have to be set at, say, 3-1 all the way up to 10-1, depending on the scenario. The server would need to be very well populated for it to work. New kites would eventually even things out to a degree, but no necessarily in a Stalingrad scenario. Adding drones to mp would not solve anything either since human players would simply ignore them unless there was a specific goal to the mission, and perhaps that's where the real answer lies; goal oriented online missions with historical numbers using ai kites. 

 

Good hunting.

[Brano]

Top10 VVS aces on La5 flew all together ~3000 sorties out of which ~1100 has been with actual combat and they shot down ~ 430 enemy planes = 1 enemy per 7 sorties in average.Those were top guys of GIAPs.Now take this numbers to your beloved MP dogfight arena and make your own conclusion.

[Finkeren]

Have you heard about clipped wing spitfires? I would think that there was some reason to produce those? I have been under the impression that the reason was to counter FW 190 advantage in roll rate.

 

That's true. But then again, the Spitfire was never that great in the rolling plane, unlike most of the Soviet fighters.

[ducs]

what's the fuzz with the 190? does it roll slow? no. It matches the roll rate quite good, it's just the initial roll that "feels" off compared to other sims. Bring numbers about "initial roll" and stop acting like little girls. Instead of one or two degres per second, I would like to have a working engine between 2-5k 

Yes, it currently rolls  ~47-53% slower than it did historically.  This is in addition to also needing the super charger,acceleration, max ata, and engine durability needing to be fixed as well.

[=CFC=Conky]

With regards to FM's. I don't care about balance, I care about historical accuracy.  

 

The balance you want has no place in a decent sim.

 

Balance in a historical sim should look more like aircraft availability, airfield availabilty, ammo/armaments availability and team numbers.

 

FM "Balance" interjects opinions and personal feeling into FM's and leads to major design flaws that deviate from actual tactics used during the time. Planes are never evenly matched spec wise but they do have strengths and deficiencies. This is why each air force develops its own tactics based on their machines capabilities. 

 

This is why I don't play things like War Thunder. 

 

Agreed, but ironically, the only way to get these things, at least when it comes to numbers, is by having the servers as well populated as the ones in war Thunder, and for that you need to make the game accessible, which means balancing, followed by this, then that, then the other thing. Kind of a chicken-egg situation  .

 

Good hunting.

[Finkeren]

Yes, it currently rolls  ~47-53% slower than it did historically.  This is in addition to also needing the super charger,acceleration, max ata, and engine durability needing to be fixed as well.

 

You might want to follow the thread about roll rate:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/11585-fw-190-roll-rate/page-3

 

People have started testing for themselves and they are independently making results extremely close to the NACA test numbers. The Fw 190 roll rate might not be that far off.

[DD_bongodriver]

That's true. But then again, the Spitfire was never that great in the rolling plane, unlike most of the Soviet fighters.

 

The clipped wing Spit was second only to the 190.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Hello all,

 

Further to my last, regarding fm balancing between aircraft, I believe it's necessary due to the lack of historical balancing factors, like numbers. On the whole, at least during the Stalingrad campaign, German aircraft were superior to their VVS counterparts. If the kites in BoS were not balanced a bit, it would soon become almost pointless to fly for the VVS online; going up against experienced mp folks in clearly superior machines without the historical benefit of overwhelming numbers (to use one example and to paraphrase a Russian expression: 'Quantity has a quality of its own'), would get boring pretty fast for a VVS player in my opinion. It doesn't matter quite so much for the sp campaign, but I believe it does for mp.

 

Good hunting.

Dev's have stated several times there is no balancing. They may have their data wrong but they are not intentionally tampering with the aircraft.

[Finkeren]

The clipped wing Spit was second only to the 190.

[VRPilot]

Yes, it currently rolls  ~47-53% slower than it did historically.  This is in addition to also needing the super charger,acceleration, max ata, and engine durability needing to be fixed as well.

 

nope, pretty much spot on roll rate. stop bitching around

[Reflected]

Why did they restrict time compression to 2x? It made the campaign even more boring