New Joystick but controlibility problems continue

[jackemjackem]

I loved the original IL-2, but found dogfighting difficult because of the constant bobbing action, something that I did not experience in other sims, nor in the real aircraft I fly (Cessnas and Citabrias, but also WW2 antique biplanes).  The only time that real aircraft mimic this behaviour is when PIOs - pilot induced oscillations - occur, where the pilot's control inputs are out of sync with the aircraft's, and such nodding and bobbing results, becoming progressively worse if the inputs are not stopped.  But in IL-2 I was not using regular rhythmic control inputs - just minor irregular corrections to correct my aim, but each correction resulted in an overshoot, and a bobbing phugoid / Dutch roll that was most unrealistic. 

 

Admittedly, I don't fly high powered WW2 aircraft, but have friends who do, and they never report such tendencies.

 

So when I found out recently that IL-2 had been updated, I immediately bought the sim, completely confident that the nodding, bobbing oscillations of the original version had been overcome.  I'm shocked to find that they certainly have not.  What a shame.

 

Perhaps it's the stick I use, a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.  I've tried all kind of fixes by experimenting with dead zones, noise reduction, but all to no avail.  The fact that the IL-2 line all the way back to 2001 exhibits the same behaviour strongly suggests it's a fundamental FM problem, perhaps related to the Logitech stick, perhaps not.

 

Some feedback from 777 would be appreciated.

[Sokol1]

There's a theory around that the culprit is the desktop joystick format... that most people use... 

 

Curious that you notice il-2:2001 behaviors in IL-2:2014, people say that they are completely different. 

 

On more useful thinking,  test your 3D PRo with JoyTester2, the more circular movement you can observe, their working is good.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByygDcuGFHYPZ1pWQ0ZZZ3kwdTg/edit

Samples: http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1310

Edited November 24, 2016 by Sokol1

[jackemjackem]

Thanks for the help Sokol (haven't tried the rubber bands yet, Smok!).  I ran JoyTester 2 (and 1 as well), and I've pretty much nailed the problem.  Regardless of how careful I am in trying to use just roll and pitch inputs, some yaw inevitably results.  This explains the Dutch roll tendency which may not be apparent in normal manoeuvering, but is very apparent when you are trying to put a pipper on a tiny moving target.

 

So I turned off the yaw input in Settings, and it pretty much fixed the problem.  I then went back into Settings and tried putting in a dead zone for the yaw control - a huge one, 100%, maximum allowable (pitch and roll left untouched).  But then the Dutch rolling returned, so I guess I'm stuck with the Z/X keys, or buying a new stick/rudder pedal set-up. 

 

So, many thanks for your advice Sokol, it was most helpful.

 

As far as the 2001/2014 comparison is concerned, you're correct - the FMs are very different, with the new one being less arcade-like, and thus more realistic.  My comment referred only to the yo-yo'ing which I now know results from the twist-grip yaw control of the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

[Sokol1]

jackemjackem

 

Interesting observation about the undesired "twist" effect, can help other users.

 

This affect all joysticks with this rudder control option, based on what WBK say in less degree in Gladiator, since they, as flight simmer, know and  take this in account, making  the "twist" more "heavy" in this stick for avoid unintentional use.

 

IMO - This moderns "CFS" (BoS, DCSW) planes require a dedicated Rudder Pedal.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Sokol1

[jackemjackem]

I agree that as sims become more sophisticated, better controllers are required.  But it's also up to a sim's programmers to adapt their product to available controllers, given that they're not a high profit item for peripheral manufacturers these days, so what we see is what we get.  I would suggest that 777 has a too sensitive rudder control as a basis of their FM, going all the way back to 2001, since other sims I have don't show these Dutch roll characteristics.

 

We all wonder about the fidelity of the FMs we use.  An interesting comment comes from my brother, a Citabria owner for more than 30 years who knows its every characteristic.  He was appalled by X-Planes' modelling of his aircraft as a jittery, unstable handful, when in the real world it is no such thing.  And as I understand it, X-Planes is touted as being the most accurate of all sims.  In contrast, RealAir's docile Citabria for FSX to me seems very realistic.  I wonder if at times there is an inverse snobbery among simmers - if it's a handful, it must be realistic, when the opposite is actually true.