Luftwaffe ops over Stalingrad, an appraisal.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Just to add to the resources and a good read.

 

http://spitfirevsbf109.com/files/LuftwaffeStalingrad.pdf

[SCG_Neun]

Enjoyed that, thanks for link.

[AX2]

Thanks for Sharing !

[Sim]

Thanks for sharing, enjoyed reading this.

 

Although, this part got my attention:

 

... Fortunately StG 2's reaction was not unique, and at Kalach, the target of the Russian spearheads, Major Hubertus Hitschold's Schlachtgruppe 1 launched to intercept the Russian columns on the open steppe. Flying Bf-109 E and newer FW-190 A-4 ground attack fighter-bombers, Hitschold's men joined in the counterattack (2:281).

 

Did the Sch.G.1 really had Fw 190 A-4 at Stalingrad? His "2:281" reference is from the following source (a book I do not own and can't really follow up right now):

 

Bekker, Cajus. The Luftwaffe War Diaries. London: Macdonald and Co. Ltd., 1967.

[Finkeren]

Wow, looks like a damn good read considering that it's a "dry" scientific report.

[csThor]

Fw 190s and Stalingrad is pure nonsense. The first Fw 190s on the Eastern Front to operate as designated fighter-bombers did not appear until after Stalingrad. SchG 1 converted to Fw 190 only in spring 1943.

[sallee]

 

Thanks for sharing, enjoyed reading this.

 

Although, this part got my attention:

 

 

 

Did the Sch.G.1 really had Fw 190 A-4 at Stalingrad? His "2:281" reference is from the following source (a book I do not own and can't really follow up right now):

 

Just been looking at my copy and I can't find any reference to FW190s at Kalatsch. 

[sallee]

And Bergstrom refers only to 109s at Kalasch and in both Stalingrad-The Air Battle and Black Cross Red Star refers to SchG1 being equipped only with 109s.

[sallee]

And Hermann Buchner has them converting to 190s at Deblin-Irena in March 1943. Sorry for the multiple posts but that involved a trip around the house!

[LukeFF]

 

 

Fw 190s and Stalingrad is pure nonsense.

 

Yep, just like how Wikipedia used to have JG 53 listed as the first Fw 190 unit on the Eastern Front.   

[Anw.StG2_Tyke]

 

Thanks for sharing, enjoyed reading this.

 

Although, this part got my attention:

 

 

 

Did the Sch.G.1 really had Fw 190 A-4 at Stalingrad? His "2:281" reference is from the following source (a book I do not own and can't really follow up right now):

 

Actually, the Schlachtgeschwader 1 had FW190's in Stalingrad. They got them on the 17th December 1942. In January 1943 they were located in Saporoshje and Poltawa.

That is true.

[csThor]

Nonsense. As you can see here ( http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/schlacht/bischg1.html ) and here ( http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/schlacht/biischg1.html ) SchG 1 did not receive a significant amount of Fw 190s before February/March 1943. The exception of 5./SchG 1 is easily explained: the previous 5./SchG 1 was transfered to North Africa in November 1942 (on Hs 129) and was incorporated into the new SchG 2 in early 1943. That left SchG 1 with one Staffel less and so a brand-new 5./SchG 1 was activated. And where did this happen? Deblin-Irena ... an airfield slap-bang in the middle of Poland. All of that meant, given the time it needs to exchange aircraft types and to work up back to frontline readiness, no Staffeln of SchG 1 operated the Fw 190 over Stalingrad. Let go of that myth, please.

Edited August 14, 2014 by csThor

[Sim]

If you take ww2.dk for granted, then yes, no Fw 190's near Stalingrad. And the 6./Sch.G.1 and 7./Sch.G.1 with around 15 brand new Fw 190A were out of range in January 1943 too.

 

Although, I keep wondering, how reliable is an internet resource such as ww2.dk? Where did they get their data? From official Luftwaffe records? Not to stir the pot, it's just that I found myself relying on ww2.dk IMHO way too much.

[csThor]

The sources of www.ww2.dk come mainly from primary sources such as the quartermaster reports etc and are pretty reliable. There are, of course, a few issues (especially with bases), but the aircraft allocation tables are IMO one of the most reliable aspects of the site. Apart from that no serious literature (i.e. Christer Bergström's book on Stalingrad) mentions the Fw 190 in the geographical area so I gather I'm on the safe side when I convey the use of the Fw 190 near Stalingrad to the land of Lala-Fairy-Tales.

[andyw248]

 

 

Did the Sch.G.1 really had Fw 190 A-4 at Stalingrad? His "2:281" reference is from the following source (a book I do not own and can't really follow up right now):   Quote Bekker, Cajus. The Luftwaffe War Diaries. London: Macdonald and Co. Ltd., 1967.

 

Cajus Bekker was a Journalist. I've read a few of his books when I was in my teens; they were derived from interviews and journals, but they were written like news magazine articles. Not that I would know for sure, but chances are his material was incomplete and unverified.

[Sim]

To be honest, there are more references to Fw 190 at Stalingrad. For example, Paul-Werner Hozzel, who was commanding St.G 2 "Immelmann" (heavily involved in the Stalingrad battle) - mentioned "a close air support Geschwader with Focke-Wulf 190" in late summer of 1942. I am not sure how such an experienced Stuka pilot could have confused Fw 190 for something else.

 

Source: http://www.merriam-press.com/recollectionsandexperiencesofastukapilot1931-1945.aspx

[sallee]

Cajus Bekker was a Journalist. I've read a few of his books when I was in my teens; they were derived from interviews and journals, but they were written like news magazine articles. Not that I would know for sure, but chances are his material was incomplete and unverified.

Like I said, he doesn't actually say what is attributed to him.

[SYN_Ricky]

To be honest, there are more references to Fw 190 at Stalingrad. For example, Paul-Werner Hozzel, who was commanding St.G 2 "Immelmann" (heavily involved in the Stalingrad battle) - mentioned "a close air support Geschwader with Focke-Wulf 190" in late summer of 1942. I am not sure how such an experienced Stuka pilot could have confused Fw 190 for something else.

 

Source: http://www.merriam-press.com/recollectionsandexperiencesofastukapilot1931-1945.aspx

 

AFAIK and following the different sources I have on the Eastern front, the ground attack units started being equipped with FW-190s on the Eastern front during the spring and summer of '43. The first unit to be equipped with the FW-190 on the East is I/JG51 in September 1942, followed by the rest of the Geschwader (minus II Gruppe sent to the Med) and the by JG54.

[csThor]

Hozzel simply mixed up years (and I doubt he had access to many sources to verify - a typical issue with many early works on the Eastern Front). The only dedicated ground-attack Geschwader (SchG 1) to operate in the East in 1942 used a mix of Bf 109 E-7, Hs 129 B-1 and Hs 123. Ricky has correct summarized the facts about the Fw 190 on the Eastern Front in 1942 and early 1943.