Want louder hitting sound

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Ok ok this is ridiculous. Falk, Extreme,Vaxx. What exactly would you like them to say? Its a known issue. That may or may not be on the top of their list of things to complete. I myself have about 25% sound missing rate. Am i freaking out? No. There is a time and a place and a MANNER. In which you report these issues. The time is now, place is in the dev bug forum and the manner is in a professional tone that aims to see it getting better. Not dragging it into the mud. As far as having balls to bring it up. There is a difference between tact and balls. You have said your piece, most agree with you. What else do you want? How are you owed an immediate explanation? It could be they are working on it and dont want to answer. You see what a simple explanation from Zak turned into. Why would they even want to feed the haters anymore until they could internally resolve the issue?

 

Its pretty much documented that all three of you hang around here to constantly berate the game and anyone who enjoys it. Are you going to continue to demand answeres on YOUR time schedule then be upset when you arent given answers right then?

 

it seems you have a very unrealistic idea of where you and indeed all of us sit in the process of this sim they are making. They have provided so many examples of just how well they respond to the comunity on different aspects. But yet you remain unconvinced that they dont understand their own game.

 

The level of disrespect shown to the devs and the rest of the community by you guys is astounding.

[Potenz]

Ok ok this is ridiculous. Falk, Extreme,Vaxx. What exactly would you like them to say? Its a known issue. That may or may not be on the top of their list of things to complete. I myself have about 25% sound missing rate. Am i freaking out? No. There is a time and a place and a MANNER. In which you report these issues. The time is now, place is in the dev bug forum and the manner is in a professional tone that aims to see it getting better. Not dragging it into the mud. As far as having balls to bring it up. There is a difference between tact and balls. You have said your piece, most agree with you. What else do you want? How are you owed an immediate explanation? It could be they are working on it and dont want to answer. You see what a simple explanation from Zak turned into. Why would they even want to feed the haters anymore until they could internally resolve the issue?

 

Its pretty much documented that all three of you hang around here to constantly berate the game and anyone who enjoys it. Are you going to continue to demand answeres on YOUR time schedule then be upset when you arent given answers right then?

 

it seems you have a very unrealistic idea of where you and indeed all of us sit in the process of this sim they are making. They have provided so many examples of just how well they respond to the comunity on different aspects. But yet you remain unconvinced that they dont understand their own game.

 

The level of disrespect shown to the devs and the rest of the community by you guys is astounding.

+1

 

some didn't take the time to interpret whta Zak try to say in a short sentence, instead start to rant and bashing the devs

[SYN_Mike77]

Well, since it is intermitant and seems to hit some systems but not others, you shouldn't have to ask if it's a bug.  Pretty obvious.

[Vaxxtx]

Well, since it is intermitant and seems to hit some systems but not others, you shouldn't have to ask if it's a bug.  Pretty obvious.

You are assuming? Did a dev tell you it was a bug? Did the post by Zak give you the impression its a bug and not a feature?

 

It is not clear to me, hence the annoyance.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

 

 

Id like them to say, "hey we know its an issue, and we are working on it".

 

That is the correct response that should have come from the devs a long time ago.  It would have put this issue to rest. 

[Potenz]

You are assuming? Did a dev tell you it was a bug? Did the post by Zak give you the impression its a bug and not a feature?

 

It is not clear to me, hence the annoyance.

yes that what Zak's sentence says, i'm not a native english speaker and i could clearly understand what he meant to say

[Black034]

"They are often played behind you because your plane moves from the point of collision."

 

I think this could be fixed by somehow layering/triggering the impact sounds together with the point where the engine sounds comes from (or other cockpit noise like wind or rattling of the airframe.. stuff only the Client can hear). Do bear in mind that the only engines I've messed with (audio-wise) is Valve's Source engine and Cryteks Cryengine..

 

Maybe it's undo-able because of limitations of this specific game engine but ah well, just shooting idea's around.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Black034

[71st_AH_Hooves]

"They are often played behind you because your plane moves from the point of collision."

 

I think this could be fixed by somehow layering/triggering the impact sounds together with the point where the engine sounds comes from (or other cockpit noise like wind or rattling of the airframe.. stuff only the Client can hear). Do bear in mind that the only engines I've messed with (audio-wise) is Valve's Source engine and Cryteks Cryengine..

 

Maybe it's undo-able because of limitations of this specific game engine but ah well, just shooting idea's around.

I highly doubt its Unfixable, are you familiar with the sound engine that 777 uses? It looks like you might actually understand whats happening here alot more than the rest of us. Perhaps you could take a look at what kind of tech they are using, and maybe give a better educated suggestion of a fix to the devs? Im sure we'd all appriciate it!

[Black034]

Well, to be honest I'm not sure what they use (and how) but from the past decade of tinkering around with this sort of stuff I learned the following:

 

 

(disclaimer, I'm not an expert or professional on this subject and my terminology will be WAY off.. but in theory the following should be correct)

 

Sounds are played in a 3d space with.. to put it in simpler terms .. coordinates.. with data WHERE and HOW they are played, for example AA fire will be louder when you travel near it then when you are distant, right?

 

If impact sounds are triggered by rounds hitting the airframe and STAYS there, its data is transmitted to a STATIC coordinate in the air.

This could be the way the sound engine is designed (don't think this is the case because planes wizzing past you carry their sounds with em into the distance) OR it's simply lagging out and the sound (so to say) not being able to follow you in time.

 

My thought on this is, why doesn't this happen with cockpit noises like wind or engine sounds? Maybe because they are more client side orientated sounds? With that meaning: they are played at the exact place the player viewpoint is at.. instead of outside 3rd party sounds which aren't produced by the players vehicle.

 

If bullets hitting your engine can make a audible difference INSIDE the cockpit (the way the engine rumbles) why not add a 2nd INTERNAL impact sound that doesn't have it's origin from a point "outside"? This "client side" impact sound could be triggered to play when the flight DM is activated.

 

Maybe I'm a bit vague in my explanation, may it be grammar or my theory being incorrect because I can't say I know what the devs are working with.

However I am 100% sure they got the right people for the right department and I'm pretty sure this shouldn't be a hard thing to fix.

 

Just felt like contributing =)

Edited October 1, 2014 by Black034

[Rama]

We can disagree with the devs and still like and respect them.

Disagreeing with the dev and staying factual is ok.

Bashing and using sarcasm to make fun of the dev is not ok.... any many post in this thread (that have been removed) have just done that.

 

So yes... despite what you say, there's a kind of witch hunt against the devs... and that's not tolerable and wont be tolerated.

 

Now, please back to the topic.

[=69.GIAP=RADKO]

Well, to be honest I'm not sure what they use (and how) but from the past decade of tinkering around with this sort of stuff I learned the following:

 

 

(disclaimer, I'm not an expert or professional on this subject and my terminology will be WAY off.. but in theory the following should be correct)

 

Sounds are played in a 3d space with.. to put it in simpler terms .. coordinates.. with data WHERE and HOW they are played, for example AA fire will be louder when you travel near it then when you are distant, right?

 

If impact sounds are triggered by rounds hitting the airframe and STAYS there, its data is transmitted to a STATIC coordinate in the air.

This could be the way the sound engine is designed (don't think this is the case because planes wizzing past you carry their sounds with em into the distance) OR it's simply lagging out and the sound (so to say) not being able to follow you in time.

 

My thought on this is, why doesn't this happen with cockpit noises like wind or engine sounds? Maybe because they are more client side orientated sounds? With that meaning: they are played at the exact place the player viewpoint is at.. instead of outside 3rd party sounds which aren't produced by the players vehicle.

 

If bullets hitting your engine can make a audible difference INSIDE the cockpit (the way the engine rumbles) why not add a 2nd INTERNAL impact sound that doesn't have it's origin from a point "outside"? This "client side" impact sound could be triggered to play when the flight DM is activated.

 

Maybe I'm a bit vague in my explanation, may it be grammar or my theory being incorrect because I can't say I know what the devs are working with.

However I am 100% sure they got the right people for the right department and I'm pretty sure this shouldn't be a hard thing to fix.

 

Just felt like contributing =)

 

This is precisely what I was thinking and my understanding of it. Assuming we are correct, a separate internal impact sound is needed for just the pilot.

 

Thanks for putting it into words Black034 +1  

[Rjel]

Very cool Wind. Thanks for the reply.

[Major_Hero]

I can live with the current sounds, as this is a great sim. Clearly, the development team have put a lot of research into much of the project content, so perhaps this is what the research team have modelled.

 

Personally, I would like to see the hit sounds amplified a little more as I have often not realised my aircraft has been damaged except for a slowly blackening canopy. In the heat of a dogfight, no only am I attempting to our manoeuvre my adversary, but with a busy sky, I find myself constantly checking wings, engine, glass etc, because I'm not entirely sure I was hit in that last pass. Am I ok to continue the fight? Do I disengage? Ram? Bail?

 

I often enjoyed flying il2 from the very beginning, And can recall on many occasions jumping out of my seat following a loud bang as I was jumped by a lone marauder on rerun from a mission. It taught me to be more vigilant on my sorties, but I had no misunderstanding that I had been hit. I still get a buzz from it, so clearly I have not totally learnt my lesson

 

Blue skies all

[unreasonable]

I'm right at the central position! Give me a free plane. (Whoops, already bought them all....)

[Zak]

please expand on you reply, it seems a bit confusing and maybe misunderstood to some, are you saying that the engine is playing the sound where the plane was at the moment of the hit???

Correct. Of course sound travels faster than any plane in the game flies but it's not relevant. Sometimes the sound just stays behind. Black034 was absolutely right speaking about coordinates.

If there's no sound at all then it's an optimization issue I guess, and it may be fixed. Thou I'm not saying that it will be fixed in the nearest future.

[Rama]

If not a bug, then what factors would cause sounds to stay behind?

A Sound "bubble" limit maybe?

[Black034]

I think calling it a bug is a bit .. off.

 

It's the way it's done, this "bubble" thing sounds like a set range the sound can be heard within.

So you don't hear wings being ripped off from the other side of the map

 

This thread just did a complete 180 though ahaha.

 

Thanks for the reply Zak!

Edited October 2, 2014 by Black034

[=69.GIAP=RADKO]

Never heard of sound bubbles in any other game or sim before.

I've just Googled the term but can't find any relevant reference.

 

I can't find any examples of a situation where sound would stay behind the observer either, unless the observer is moving faster than the speed of sound.

 

Anyway, hopefully they'll pop the bubble soon (after release) and we can get the audio working realistically.

 

I doubt  any game developer would use "sound bubbles" as the technical term and I'm pretty sure many games use a similar method. What Zak is saying is yes, some sounds are missed due to the sound bubble not reaching the pilot. What's more important is what he last have to say "Thou I'm not saying that it will be fixed in the nearest future". As long as the devs confirm the problem, then that is good enough for me for the mean time.

 

Thanks Zak.

Edited October 2, 2014 by =69.GIAP=RADKO

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Never heard of sound bubbles in any other game or sim before.

I think DCS uses the same (or a very similiar) system. Their sound files use inner and outer radius for max and min amplitude. Also having issues there with hearing hit sounds so I might be quite right in this assumption.

 

Hopefully dves can sort this out in future. Be with coding "sticky" sounds that stick to aircraft parts after collision or artificially cockpit sounds for hits, both oculd be possibel solutions to increase overall immersion, realism and fun

[Black034]

I can't find any examples of a situation where sound would stay behind the observer either, unless the observer is moving faster than the speed of sound.

 

 

 

It doesn't work that way Extreme_One,

 

The bubble is an area the sound is played in, with a set range and volume.

Imagine moving around, the bubble being created when you get hit and then moving away from that at 450 kph (virtual speed).

You're simply moving away from the area the sound is played at

 

Just a little too fast..

 

Dangit 5tuka you ninja! Beat me to it!

 

 

Anyho, speed of sound isn't included in game engines.. maybe it's simulated in some games (think JSRS soundmod for the ArmA series) but 99,99% of the games don't bother.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Black034

[Rama]

I can't find any examples of a situation where sound would stay behind the observer either, unless the observer is moving faster than the speed of sound.

The sound intensity of a non-directionnal emission decrease with the square of the distance. If you put an audition ceil for the sound to be taken in account (1db for example, or any other value), you obtain a spherical volume (the sound is heard Inside, and not Inside). That's the "bubble".

If the observer is moving toward the bubble limit and reach it before the sound, then he wont hear it... and there's no necessity for him to move faster than the speed of sound, it dépends on the size of the bubble, the initial position and the relative speed (if the observer is at mid-distance from the source and the bubble limit, moving in the opposite direction of the source at half the speed of the sound, then he will reach the limit before hearing the sound).

 

Of course, this is irrelevant if the sound is propagated by the plane structure. It's only relevant if the sound is only propagated by the air.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Never heard of sound bubbles in any other game or sim before.

I've just Googled the term but can't find any relevant reference.

 

I can't find any examples of a situation where sound would stay behind the observer either, unless the observer is moving faster than the speed of sound.

 

Anyway, hopefully they'll pop the bubble soon (after release) and we can get the audio working realistically.

You can blame me for the bubbles, I had bake beans for tea.

[Voidhunger]

So is it this limitation of the engine same for the hit effects, which are displayed far behind the planes? That the hit effect is displayed on the spot where the plane was before? Pfffffff

[Rama]

Are we now saying it's fine that we can't hear the rounds hitting our plane?

I don't think anybody is saying that.

I think we just try to explain how it works in the game with the software Tools used. Zak told us it could be an optimization issue and so that it could be worked in the future.

[SYN_Mike77]

Here's how I would sum up what Zak said: They know it is a problem for some. They have two possible causes for the problem and are looking into solutions. Don't expect those solutions to be implemented in tomorrows update. Am I missing something?

[Potenz]

Correct. Of course sound travels faster than any plane in the game flies but it's not relevant. Sometimes the sound just stays behind. Black034 was absolutely right speaking about coordinates.

If there's no sound at all then it's an optimization issue I guess, and it may be fixed. Thou I'm not saying that it will be fixed in the nearest future.

Thanks Zak, for your reply, as i suspected that's where the issue lays, we will wait for the fix in time.

 

I'm still not sure what you're saying.

 

Are you saying that the sound that 'stays behind' is a bug?

 

If not a bug, then what factors would cause sounds to stay behind?

mate please stop it, he says that it's an issue, and it will be fixed eventually,

so yes it's a bug/problem/issue whatever you want it to call it.

but stop that between lines reading thing you are doing.

 

no hard feeling, regs

 

Potz

Edited October 2, 2014 by GOAPotenz

[Rivet]

The only sound bubbles I've experienced have been in the bath.

[Rama]

It seems some still believe this 'issue' is a bug and others appear to believe this 'issue' is how sound is meant to behave.

It is more or less how sound is meant to propagade in air (outside the plane).

In a plane, when the structure is hit, the sound is mostly propagated through the plane structure (in fact, the vibration of the sound).... and a bit by the air Inside the plane, with different behavior than a non-directionnal sound source in static air.

 

Zak's posts seems to imply that only the first propagation method is included in the game.

Of course, I can be wrong.

[Potenz]

Dunno lol, I'm getting something about sounds staying behind because of coordinates or something (I'm still not sure if it's intended behaviour or not) and some optimisation needed for the other lack of sounds.

 

 

Mate, thanks but I'm not sure Zak has actually stated that the sounds 'staying behind' is intentional or not.

 

We all know it's an 'issue' - if it wasn't an issue we wouldn't be discussing it.

 

It's whether it's a bug or the way the audio is supposed to work, that's what is being debated.

 

It seems some still believe this 'issue' is a bug and others appear to believe this 'issue' is how sound is meant to behave.

 

Ambiguity is such fun isn't it?

when he says that it maybe fixed, that means that they are aware of the problem and it is not means to work in that way,

as they are close to release he will not give you a false date for the fix to be applyed.

just wait, issue is known by the devs, what more do you want them to say

 

just be patient and with time things will be fixed.

[Potenz]

yes is the same issue, it's not that hard to understand

 

OK, but is this a bug, something that requires a fix or is this behaviour as intended according to the way sound is modeled in this game?


Is no sound at all the same as sound being 'left behind' or is it a separate issue?

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just seeking clarity because right now it's all a bit of a muddle.

yes it is the same issue, it all part of an optimization problem with the sound engine,

it's more than clear what he wrote.

 

i'm telling you again, i'm not a native English speaker and i can easely get what he meant to say.

 

Potz

[Potenz]

awrite mate, let's wait for the official explanation

[SYN_Mike77]

Ambiguity is an inherent part of language. It is made worse when people who don't share the same native language attempt to communicate. That problem is compounded when people are using a medium of communication other than face to face conversation. But look on the bright side! We are making steady progress and seem to be down to only one individual who doesn't understand the devs position on this problem! We'll get there.

[Zak]

OK, but is this a bug, something that requires a fix or is this behaviour as intended according to the way sound is modeled in this game?

This is how it works in the game. I can't say if it's an engine flaw, I just know it'll be this way.

 

Is no sound at all the same as sound being 'left behind' or is it a separate issue?

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just seeking clarity because right now it's all a bit of a muddle.

Actually I wish there was more clarity too. I proper bug report with a video record and a track for the specific moment would be helpful.

[HagarTheHorrible]

The problem, as already mentioned, is really rather easy to understand, whether it is a bug or a sound engine limitation is another thing entirely. The hit sound is like a flak burst , it happens and it then hangs around for a predefined amount of time and then vanishes. The problem is, like a flak burst it isn't attached to the aircraft like the engine sound for example. Particularly with online play, by the time it registers and makes a noise you have moved far enough away from the point of impact that you no longer hear the sound because, like a flak burst, you've left it behind. Another reason why you are probably more Likely to hear it when chasing , as by the time the sound plays the shooting aircraft has reached that point and thus hears the impact that should actually have been heard by the victim.

 

It would be interesting to know if slow flying makes any difference. Fly as slowly as possible and get shot at, do you hear the hit sounds ? Then try again only faster. If you did hear the hit sounds when flying really slowly at what point / speed do you stop hearing them ? Does having the canopy open or closed make any difference ?

[Sokol1]

Is not related with delayed visual effects?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CugYbUwAHA8

 

Ai trick.

[FuriousMeow]

Realistic hit sounds, I want realistic sounds all around. The sound engine is actually very complex and accounts for attenuation, doppler effect, speed of sound, direction of sound and more. There is a lot going into the sound engine to give the ouput, and fact is - a lot of things you shouldn't hear over the sound of the engine and (as much as they could) sound cancelling headsets in the pilot's headgear. Most was felt, either through striking airframe or armored structures. If a 20mm explodes in the rudder, you are very unlikely to hear it. Feel it in the pedals, sure - or just feel the pedals go dead, but very unlikely to hear it. Just the same as bombs going off that were dropped and exploded a second or two behind you as you are flying away from the sound wave. There is a lot to take into account for sound to be produced, it isn't just something happened that causes noise so it should be heard.

 

I can point to pilot's memoirs as well, and they will say they felt a bump and then their oil pressure started dropping - not they heard a huge explosion and then started kicking their plane all over the place that then won them the war. For the most part, if you hear hit sounds you are already done for.

 

Not saying they can't be improved, everything can always be improved, but there shouldn't be this over bearing nonsensical bass oriented symphony dancing around your speakers everytime you get hit - at best you are lucky if you even heard it in the real world. And even if you do hear the hits, it is already too late.

Edited October 2, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[FuriousMeow]

 The lack of communication on this is not helping anyone and having an official answer would help people calm down.

 

First, they are very communicative. They can't relay everything and all matters, then everyone will expect an answer to everything - just like they already do but then it will be worse. And we have communication right here in this thread, and I actually understood Zak's post so I guess I'm in the minority on that one.

 

Second, everyone should be calm. This is a game. Sim/game, it's not something that makes or breaks your life. If a game gets you going, and gets you all antsy in the pantsy - perhaps it is time to take a step back and realise this is for fun. This is for enjoyment. The second someone isn't calm with anything to do with this, or any actually, form of entertainment is the second that person needs to re-evaluate a lot of things.

Edited October 3, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[Trident_109]

Realistic hit sounds, I want realistic sounds all around. The sound engine is actually very complex and accounts for attenuation, doppler effect, speed of sound, direction of sound and more. There is a lot going into the sound engine to give the ouput, and fact is - a lot of things you shouldn't hear over the sound of the engine and (as much as they could) sound cancelling headsets in the pilot's headgear. Most was felt, either through striking airframe or armored structures. If a 20mm explodes in the rudder, you are very unlikely to hear it. Feel it in the pedals, sure - or just feel the pedals go dead, but very unlikely to hear it. Just the same as bombs going off that were dropped and exploded a second or two behind you as you are flying away from the sound wave. There is a lot to take into account for sound to be produced, it isn't just something happened that causes noise so it should be heard.

 

I can point to pilot's memoirs as well, and they will say they felt a bump and then their oil pressure started dropping - not they heard a huge explosion and then started kicking their plane all over the place that then won them the war. For the most part, if you hear hit sounds you are already done for.

 

Not saying they can't be improved, everything can always be improved, but there shouldn't be this over bearing nonsensical bass oriented symphony dancing around your speakers everytime you get hit - at best you are lucky if you even heard it in the real world. And even if you do hear the hits, it is already too late.

The operative phrase has been high lighted. We don't have the luxury of feeling hits to our aircraft. Is the smoke behind me coming from a blown engine because I mismanaged the ATA/RPMs? Or did an enemy get a hit on my engine cowling, thus perforating my oil reservoir?  Often times the only way we know we've been hit is the tell tale signs of a broken gun sight, a suddenly breezy canopy, or holes on the wing. Those incidents still allow for an escape if you are a capable enough pilot (or lucky). Without the feedback we need to rely on hit sounds to give us situational awareness clues.

 

I understand there were plenty of times that pilots may not have heard the ammo strike their craft but they did have the sense of of touch. We don't.

[BigPickle]

Get close up behind an enemy and hit him, the impact noise is louder from that then being hit yourself.

 

To set the record straight you hear the impact, myself and my firetime were in a chinook in Iraq and we would hear every round that hit the bird.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Get close up behind an enemy and hit him, the impact noise is louder from that then being hit yourself.

 

To set the record straight you hear the impact, myself and my firetime were in a chinook in Iraq and we would hear every round that hit the bird.

How do you know you didn't hear the rounds that hit the aircraft that you didn't hear ?