Tank busting in the IL 2..

[Deltahawkoz]

Just wondering what folks are using for this.  I have tried gun pods, I SEEM to be getting hits on the rear of enemy armor with them, but they don't have to seem much effect. Rockets I find very hard to hit with, bombs, yep, that will immobilize them for sure.  My technique is as per Dart from IL 2 days.   Anyone else like to chime in with their experiences.  Awesome sim and coming along nicely. 

 

Thanks in advance

[siipperi]

I normally use small bombs and pretty low angle when dropping <45, works for me and hitting rate is really high. I must say I'm atm worse dive bomber so that needs practice.

 

Im also wondering if BK37 in the game have realistic penetration values. not sure how well it should be penetrating KV1 but I have shot many times on the top of the engine with them and they rarely do anything.

[Finkeren]

Tanks are by far the hardest targets in BoS, as they should be. IMHO BoS captures perfectly exactly how impotent aircraft were against armoured targets in WW2. Fighter bombers had extremely low accuracy with either rockets or bombs compared to dive bombers, and most ordinance used against tanks in WW2 had to achieve a direct hit to have any kind of effect.

 

About the BK: While it was without a doubt an effective anti tank weapon, it was by no means the one-shot-one-kill gun it was in IL-2 1946. A single solid tungsten 37mm AP round is no guaranteed kill against any tank, regardless if it penetrates just fine.

[Feathered_IV]

I was practising witht the BK's last night against tanks and noticed something very interesting.

I made a low angle pass against the rear of a column of three KV's and scored hits on the back of one of them.  It came to a halt while the other two continued on their way.  A small amount of smoke came from the stationary machine.  I was still making passes on the remaining two tanks some minutes later when I saw the disabled one suddenly brew up and it was completely destroyed.  Nice damage modelling, and much better then the on/off treatment seen in other titles.

[=LD=Hethwill]

One plane should not do much. Try to wing with 3 buddie and fly a squad, do the straffing luftbery, enjoy success and open vodka bottle upon returning to base.

 

On the XVI Corps breakout mission we had a company of Pz4 on the outskirts of the field and we could hear the explosions alreadr. We scrambled in a hurry and managed to punish them enough for the T-34 to hold them off.

 

On a side note the panzer company attack looked quite nice, with one platoon up front skirmishing and only after a while did the entire column breakout from the tree line. I remember we first counted 4 tanks... suddenly there were 12 more coming. Was a field day with 2 to 4 tanks busted by each plane.

[Brano]

IL2 was poor tank killer.Official tests done in 1942 at VVS test polygon reveiled,that you would need 12 combat sorties of 1 sturmovik to knock out 1 german light tank.

 

Only weapon used on first sturmoviks able to deal damage to german panzers was 100kg FAB bomb.For light tanks (PzkpfwII,35(t),38(t)) it was necessary to drop bomb not further then 10m from tank to allow blast to do any damage (mainly rivets broken due to blast wave).For medium tanks like PzkpfwIII and IV only direct hit gave chance to knock it out.During tests,only 4% of bombs were able to score.And those were ideal conditions on test firing range with stacionary targets.

 

Later special OFAB bombs were developed,designed to fragment to small pieces after impact and cause penetration with these "AT shrapnells" But I would say that it was not used very often (not much records available).

 

37mm cannons were installed only on small test series and were proven totaly inadequate for tankbusting - they were not synchronised so firing from both cannons caused plane to yaw and made aiming impossible.What we have in game as "unlock" is really "what-if" weapon loadout.

Standard RS rockets were useless agains tanks.Very innacurate and with poor penetration power.Later special developments of BRS varians (B for bronyevaya = armor) had some penetration power,but direct hit was required.Again,during tests sturmovik pilots were able to score very low numbers of hits around 1-3% chance of direct hit.

Later,for deployment during operations in Kursk bulge,special small PTAB 2.5kg bombs were designed to drop in large numbers thus covering larger area and eliminating accuracy problems (those are well known from old sturm).They were dropped at almost vertical 90% hitting top armor of german tanks (weakest point) with very good chance to knock it out.

[BraveSirRobin]

Just wondering what folks are using for this.  I have tried gun pods, I SEEM to be getting hits on the rear of enemy armor with them, but they don't have to seem much effect. 

 

Use the AP loadout.  The HE/AP loadout appears to consist of AP when I miss and HE when I get hits.

[Feathered_IV]

Thanks Brano.  Puts things in perspective.

[Matt]

I destroyed two Stugs with the 37mm cannons (only AP) in one pass yesterday. They take 2-4 hits max and then blow up. Didn't even have to worry about the angle and it made me think it's a bit too easy.

 

With rockets or bombs, it's pretty hard to destroy tanks, but the 37mm cannons make short work and the Il-2 has plenty of ammunition with that loadout.

[=38=Tatarenko]

I have better luck with the 23mm guns and AP only ammo. Fire at the side of the tank (bigger tgt, same armour) and you can shred them quite easily.

[6high]

IL2 was poor tank killer.Official tests done in 1942 at VVS test polygon reveiled,that you would need 12 combat sorties of 1 sturmovik to knock out 1 german light tank.

 

Only weapon used on first sturmoviks able to deal damage to german panzers was 100kg FAB bomb.For light tanks (PzkpfwII,35(t),38(t)) it was necessary to drop bomb not further then 10m from tank to allow blast to do any damage (mainly rivets broken due to blast wave).For medium tanks like PzkpfwIII and IV only direct hit gave chance to knock it out.During tests,only 4% of bombs were able to score.And those were ideal conditions on test firing range with stacionary targets.

 

Later special OFAB bombs were developed,designed to fragment to small pieces after impact and cause penetration with these "AT shrapnells" But I would say that it was not used very often (not much records available).

 

37mm cannons were installed only on small test series and were proven totaly inadequate for tankbusting - they were not synchronised so firing from both cannons caused plane to yaw and made aiming impossible.What we have in game as "unlock" is really "what-if" weapon loadout.

Standard RS rockets were useless agains tanks.Very innacurate and with poor penetration power.Later special developments of BRS varians (B for bronyevaya = armor) had some penetration power,but direct hit was required.Again,during tests sturmovik pilots were able to score very low numbers of hits around 1-3% chance of direct hit.

Later,for deployment during operations in Kursk bulge,special small PTAB 2.5kg bombs were designed to drop in large numbers thus covering larger area and eliminating accuracy problems (those are well known from old sturm).They were dropped at almost vertical 90% hitting top armor of german tanks (weakest point) with very good chance to knock it out.

Yes, thank you Brano, that does put the myth in it`s place.

 

I have better luck with the 23mm guns and AP only ammo. Fire at the side of the tank (bigger tgt, same armour) and you can shred them quite easily.

This! Since convergence has been introduced (using 250m), i can easily destroy one tank in a pass with 23mm and AP loadout.

 

6

[LukeFF]

What we have in game as "unlock" is really "what-if" weapon loadout.

 

 

There is a mention on Wikipedia that the Sh-37 did see combat use at Stalingrad, though like you say it was a very small number or aircraft:

 

Nevertheless, between December 1942 and January 1943, a limited production run of nine Il-2s armed with Sh-37 guns was delivered to the 688th Attack Air Regiment (ShAP) of the 228th Attack Air Division (16th Air Army) for military trials. These aircraft took part in the combat around Stalingrad that winter. The Sh-37 gun proved somewhat effective against the German tanks of the day. It could pierce the armor of light tanks without problem and at favorable angles it was effective against German medium tanks as well. However, effective use of the gun required a high degree of skill from the pilots. Besides the diving issue, poor firing synchronization between the guns (as installed in these aircraft) caused them to also veer laterally off-course when the Sh-37 guns were fired. Consequently, bursts of only two or three rounds were practical. To compound the problems, the Sh-37 guns were also rather unreliable, with frequent jamming occurring. Even though the Sh-37s were installed in pairs, this actually decreased the overall reliability of the aircraft as a weapon system, because the jamming of a single gun meant that the Il-2 could not fire safely any longer, due to the strong, asymmetric recoil from a single gun having a very strong destabilizing effect on the aircraft. After these experiences, the Il-2 with Sh-37 guns was not ordered in mass production.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shpitalny_Sh-37

[Brano]

NS37 was able to deal even with tanks like Pzkpfw V in terms of balistics (up to 48mm penetration).Problem with IL2 was,that both guns (in underwing gondolas) fired separately left-right-left-right causing too much yaw and consecutive dispersion of projectiles.It was phased out from production in favour of small PTAB bombs (even average pilot could hit smtg when he dropped full load of them).

 

With VYa 23mm you should not be able to destroy medium tanks (Pzkpfw IIIg,IVF/H or stugs IIIF/G) from any side and only very lucky shot to top of engine or turret under angle of attack larger then 40°.Its API ammo could at best situation = firing at 400m at 90° angle penetrate 25mm of armor steel.At 60° it was able of 16mm penetration,which was not enough for any medium tank or stug,even for top of turret or engine.

[unreasonable]

Good info Brano, have a green arrow.

 

This matches up with what I have been able to find out about rocket firing Typhoons in Normandy - very small numbers of tanks actually destroyed, the crews would have hated it though!

 

Il-2s were really better suited for going after enemy soft transport and artillery positions. After all, the Germans actually had rather small numbers of tanks, and the soviet AT guns were rather good.

[Brano]

Tanks were in general concentrated to small areas of planned breakthrougs for limited time.Every wise commander kept its armed forces behind main frontline to use them only when really necessary (either to exploit gaps in enemy lines or counterattack such exploits of enemy).As example there were never more then cca 70 battle ready Pzkpfw VI at whole front in one single day.And as you suggested,AT guns are far more effective antitank means.In fact majority of tanks on either side were destroyed by AT gun crews.IL2 is great in attacking soft targets like trucks,trains,railyards,comunication hubs,artillery positions etc.Anything that can help ground troops to advance in their attack and make life of the dude on the other side miserable (like not getting lunch because field kitchen has been blown up by sturmovik )

[SCG_Tzigy]

i am falling in love with the il2 with 23 mm guns,  AP load, get 3-4 tanks each sortie, after i disable the flak trucks  , have not figured out how to fire the rockets accurately enough...

[Finkeren]

Brano is right about the poor statistics for the IL-2 as a tank buster, but that's only half the story. In fact all aircraft commonly refered to as "tank busters" (be they Typhoons, P-47s, Hs 129s etc) had low success rates when it came to destroying tanks. Tanks are small targets and pretty resistant to proximity hits, and were subject to massive overclaiming by all airforces.

[NIKO_BG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLPchQ2AbUo

A short movi which show Ju-87 /37mm gun in action. But in the game I think that rate of fire of  pair 37mm gun is to high.

I tought that there must be big shaking when fire this big gun, but I don't see any shaking in the movie

[FG28Kodiak]

The 37mm gun of the Stukas G was a 3,7cm Flak 18 with a rate of fire of about 80 rounds per minute.

[Descolada]

i am falling in love with the il2 with 23 mm guns,  AP load, get 3-4 tanks each sortie, after i disable the flak trucks  , have not figured out how to fire the rockets accurately enough...

you shoot all of them and pray they hit

 

the russian rockets are not very accurate

[Y-29.Silky]

37mm cannons were installed only on small test series and were proven totaly inadequate for tankbusting - they were not synchronised so firing from both cannons caused plane to yaw and made aiming impossible.What we have in game as "unlock" is really "what-if" weapon loadout.

I want to point out that it's fairly easy to destroy a tank with a 37mm if you attack it from behind, in the game. They don't blow up, but they catch fire and eventually are destroyed. But it seems the 37mm doesn't have much affect on flight performance at this point; I had no issues.

 

Missiles are hard, notice in the gun cam footage, they're not shooting one at a time, but all of them.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

One of the best "tank busters" in the game right now just may be the FW 190.    

 

I always try and hit the tank from the side profile.  Bigger target and it seems to get the job done. 

[Brano]

One of the best "tank busters" in the game right now just may be the FW 190.    

 

I always try and hit the tank from the side profile.  Bigger target and it seems to get the job done. 

If you mean destroying tank by attacking with MG151/MGFF that should be impossible against T34s and even more against KVs.Maybe light T26/40/60 and BT7 but those are not in game AFAIK.

[Deltahawkoz]

Thanks to all for contributing.  Found that 100 per cent AP load out is the way to go. A hit or hits in the right place will destroy armor, normally from the rear. As per some of the posts, a hit will disable and immobilize.  They emit smoke. And brew up eventually. Very well done effect. Found targeting armor damn hard, due to the very short time one has when diving in to get it right. Usually time only for a 1-2 sec burst.  Made like a lawn dart many times, ha ha. Have to watch that target fixation.  

[216th_Peterla]

Good info and quite interesting.

[Brano]

MG151 with max 15mm penetration at 100m could not do any damage to T34 or KV1.If it is possible to do it in game,then smtg is wrong or post by VBF-12Snake9 is misleading .T34 obraz goda 42 (1942 model) had top armor of turret and engine compartment 20mm.Side lower hull was 45mm (on top of that covered with large metal wheels) and side upper hull was sloped armor of 40mm.So whatever angle and side you would attack T34,projectiles would just ricochet.To speak about much heavily armored KV makes no sense.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

I'll give it a test tonight Brano,, but I recall busting them before with the 190.  Now that there's convergence it should be easy.  Took out about 5 last night with the 23mm on the il2.  Is there a huge difference of 3mm in the rounds?  I really don't know much about true armament.  Anyway test it tonight for you.   

[BeastyBaiter]

In real life there is a huge difference. The caliber only refers to bullet diameter, other important factors are how long the bullet is, what it's made of, its mass and of course its velocity. The caliber of a bullet is basically meaningless by itself. As a simple example, here is a pic of various .22 caliber cartridges:

 

 

 

 

 

As for tank busting in BoS, I find angle irrelevant. I've already posted a video or two of me strafing tanks in an IL-2, but I'll post another here. The plane used is an IL-2 obviously, I'm using the 37mm's with AP and a convergence of 250m. It isn't one of my better runs either, very typical tbh.

 

http://youtu.be/XLqYiZxmlyM

[Brano]

It is OK to knock out Pzkpfw IV F2 with 37mm NS cannon as side of hull and turret armor is 30mm thick against 48mm penetration of the gun.But MG151 of Fw190 knocking out T34 or even KV1.....hard to believe.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

Ok, just finished tank busting in my 190.      It takes about 2 good passes or 3 not so good passes to knock out a tank.  So according to this game the 190 can take out tanks with it's 20mm.      

[Gambit21]

Hmmm...yeah it should be tough to take a tank out like that unless hitting it in the rear/fans, and then it should just stop it, not blow it up.

[pilotpierre]

Ita a very rare occurence for me to take out a Russian tank with 109 or 190 using guns. I gave it up as a lost cause some time ago.

Edited October 1, 2014 by pilotpierre

[Descolada]

If you want to blow tanks up with a fighter just take a SC250. Hit it within 5 meters or so and it'll usually blow up immediately, more than that and sometimes it'll catch on fire.

[6high]

Ok, just finished tank busting in my 190.      It takes about 2 good passes or 3 not so good passes to knock out a tank.  So according to this game the 190 can take out tanks with it's 20mm.      

That /not/ good

[Finkeren]

I'll give it a test tonight Brano,, but I recall busting them before with the 190. Now that there's convergence it should be easy. Took out about 5 last night with the 23mm on the il2. Is there a huge difference of 3mm in the rounds? I really don't know much about true armament. Anyway test it tonight for you.

Yes, it makes a huge difference. The capacity of the HE round on the VYa-23 is more than twice of that of a ShVAK HE shell. Penetration of the AP round at normal firing range is 25mm, compared to 15mm of the pretty effective MG 151.

 

At steeper angles the VYa-23 should be able to punch through the top armour of any German medium tank. The MG 151 should not be able to penetrate either the KV-1 or T-34 except perhaps from a vertical dive.

[Elbows]

Does IL-2 use a real armour penetration model, or a simple hit-point style detection model?  How does the engine calculate it?

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 

 Even the MG151/20 can not penetrate T34 or KV-1 the ammo can damage the tracks and wheels. But BoS is propably not that detailed in DM. Also what makes hitting tanks in game easy is that if you choose no winds/gusts. On a normal day there would be 2-5m/s winds or even more. And at low level gusts might shudder the plane making precise aiming very hard. But in game it is point and click.

[bivalov]

MG151 with max 15mm penetration at 100m could not do any damage to T34 or KV1.If it is possible to do it in game,then smtg is wrong or post by VBF-12Snake9 is misleading .T34 obraz goda 42 (1942 model) had top armor of turret and engine compartment 20mm.Side lower hull was 45mm (on top of that covered with large metal wheels) and side upper hull was sloped armor of 40mm.So whatever angle and side you would attack T34,projectiles would just ricochet.To speak about much heavily armored KV makes no sense.

Brano, i just will a bit correct you, and i will post some originals, meanwhile you of course are right in total.

 

this is pages with german shells, from discussion with devs, from rissian forum - "15 mm Panzergranatpatrone L'spur o. Zerl." (sabot will be better, around 22 mm IINM), "2 cm Panzergranatpatrone 151 o. Zerl.", 3,7 cm H-Panzergranatpatrone L'spur o. Zerl - and my notes from these docs -

 

 

(Durchschlagswirtung...Panzerplattenfestigkeit 140-150 kg/mm2...Auftreffwinkel 60) 100 m - 17 mm, 200 - 16, 300 - 14, 400 - 12, 500 -11, 600 - 10, 700 - 9, 800 - 8, 900 - 7, 1000 - 6.

 

(Wirkung) Durchschlagswirkung (Durchschlagsleistung) auf 100 m 60 Auftreffwinkel 13 mm Panzer von 120 kg/mm2 Festigkeit (Verwendung) im Luftkampf und gegen Bodenziele

 

(Wirkung) Durchschlagswirkung mit Brandwirkung durch Schmelzen der Leichtmetallhuelle. Erfolg nur gegen Ziele mit nackter Panzerung. Gegen Panzerung mit Vorsatz neigt Stahlkern zum Zersplittern (Durchschlagsleistung) 100 m = 140 mm/69 mm (90/60) 600 m - 95 mm/47 mm (90/60) (Panzerplattenfestigkeit - 100 kg/mm2) (Verwendung) Ausschliesslich gegen gepanzerte Bodenziele (schwere und schwerste Panzerwagen). Verwendung zum Ubungsschiessen VERBOTEN.

 

ШВАК, ВЯ-23 и НС-37. RBS-82 - 50 mm (RBS-132, ~75 mm, if i not mistaken).

 

the 23mm on the il2. Is there a huge difference of 3mm in the rounds?

it's not "only 3 mm", of course, like fw 190 with radial engine it's definately not la-5, with similar engine...

 

 

according to personally my fresh experience in online (Eagle nest historical missions), very balanced and, maybe, even the best "red" tank buster - it's il-2 with VYA (ap) + 8 ROFS-132 + 6 FAB-50. well, or lagg-3 with VYA (ap) and 2xFAB-100. meanwhile SH-37 on each of these planes are not so effective in total. BUT. it's just several hours in tank-busting, i not tested all details of weapons really, and i open fire mainly very close (ie not correctly according to real practice, which, sometimes, was not really optimally).

[Brano]

Thanks comrade Bivalov.I would like to ask you about more details for VYa 23mm.

In that chart:

X axes is angle at which projectile is fired = 0 means that its trajectory is perpendicular to steel plate

Y axes is distance from which projectile was fired

 

Test sample is 30mm side hull armor of StuGIII ausf.E,16mm armor of top engine and 10mm for armor above post of tank commander.

 

I am curious about that 30mm side hull.Correct me if I read it wrong.It says that 23mm API projectile,when fired at 0 angle (Il2 would have to fly straight few cm above ground) can penetrate side hull armor at 400m.If angle changes to 15° distance decreases to 100m = you should be with your sturm in 27m above ground.Hmm,very risky while flying 300km/h you would end up in next second in your target.Any larger angle should lead to ricochet.

[bivalov]

X axes is angle at which projectile is fired = 0 means that its trajectory is perpendicular to steel plate

Y axes is distance from which projectile was fired

yes

 

Test sample is 30mm side hull armor of StuGIII ausf.E,16mm armor of top engine and 10mm for armor above post of tank commander.

yes, only there mentioned driver, instead commander

 

It says that 23mm API projectile, when fired at 0 angle (Il2 would have to fly straight few cm above ground) can penetrate side hull armor at 400m.

yes.

 

in fact, 23 mm AP can penetrate around 25 mm/0 degrees/400 m, according to this (plus, also mentioned, that - "Бронебойно-зажигательный снаряд к 23-мм пушке ВЯ пробивает на дальности 300 м под углами до 35° к нормали 16-мм гомогенную броню" - ie 300 meters/35 degrees/16 mm - exactly like in chart)

 

so, maybe, penetration=30 mm it's speed of plane+speed of shell. or exactly this hull armor of STUG was worse than other types, for example. well, i dont remember and dont know all details here

 

If angle changes to 15° distance decreases to 100m = you should be with your sturm in 27m above ground.

yep, and 15 it's more realistic angle, but still almost ideal, i think

 

Hmm, very risky while flying 300km/h you would end up in next second in your target. Any larger angle should lead to ricochet.

yes yes and yes, for example, my results above - it's mainly CIRCUS, what are not hard for many players, but almost unrealistic for real pilots.