BoS Mission Editor... any news?

[Trooper117]

As the thread title suggests, has anyone posted any info on the functionality of the mission editor?

I spent many hours making missions and small campaigns etc with the old IL2, but never managed to get my head around the RoF system.

I'm mentioning RoF as we have members of 777 and the old IL2 team working together, (if my understanding is correct) .

Just wondering if the FMB is going to be anything like the old IL2 system?

I have tried using the search function but haven't come up with anything concrete yet.

 

Any info greatly received

[Sturm_]

The Dev Team said that the priority is the development of the Game itself. The community will be presented with the same tool (or at least a very similar one) that the Dev Team themselves use for creating missions. Improvements over the actual RoF Mission Editor have not been announced yet.

 

IMHO it's a very powerful editor, but extremely time consuming. I am a Mission Builder myself, and I'm as eager as you to learn more about the ME, I'm just sharing the info I have.

Edited August 22, 2013 by [URU]Fox

[CaptainCrunch]

... IMHO it's a very powerful editor, but extremely time consuming... 

 

So time consuming and counter-intuitive that it becomes discouraging rather quickly for most people. Personally, I'm very concerned about how this feature will turn out and whether the devs can do anything about making it more accessible for people who have lives & responsibilities outside of flight simming. 

 

I've worked with the ROF ME quite a bit, and I build coop missions for a very small group I fly with. From my experience, I just don't think it's very realistic to imagine that there will be a strong community of mission builders for BOS if the tool is implemented with the current user interface. There was a movement among some ROF community members to help the devs improve it by addressing some of the more problematic issues people have with it, but as far as I know nothing ever came of it. I could be wrong about that however, as I had to step away from mission building for quite some time now.

 

Who knows, maybe the suggestions made for improvement there will end up materializing in the BOS ME? I certainly hope so.

Edited August 22, 2013 by CaptainCrunch

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Im sure i read somewhere they might try and make the FMB more user friendly.

[Requiem]

For me, when I use the ME I found the key to mission building in RoF is through the use of "groups." Groups are sequences of actions for the ME to perform that are saved, which allows you to import that entire sequence over and over again into any mission. It saves a lot of time and if you don't understand exactly how the "Group" (action sequence) you want works it doesn't matter as long as you know how to activate or deactivate it as needed. I have many different types of groups saved, but my groups include things such as: all objects in certain sectors of the front, aircraft takeoffs with formations and waypoints, visual reconnaissance triggers, photo reconnaissance triggers, and Checkzone (proximity) triggers that spawn anti-aircraft vehicles. Any process you make in the ME can be saved as a group for quick import later on.

 

You don't need to understand the ME completely to utilise groups, but using groups allows you to build a mission very quickly plus you can reverse engineer how the group works and gain a better understanding of the ME.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Requiem

[BlitzPig_EL]

I sure hope so Furbs.

 

I tried to use the RoF editor and gave up.

[ATAG_Slipstream]

I sure hope so Furbs.

 

I tried to use the RoF editor and gave up.

Same. It need to be simple to use by the average user with a minimum of effort.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Im pretty sure we are getting the same ME at release.  Hopefully it gets some work from the devs after that, but don't hold your breath.  I mean its not like it doesn't have a ME like WT.  I imagine even though its a tough cookie to crack, this genre s much more popular and more smart types are going to be looking into it!

[Bearcat]

I don't know anything about the ME in RoF .. but is the structure of the sim 3rd party friendly? I am thinking on the lines of Mission Mate or the UQMG..

[Trooper117]

What would be a nice touch within the editor, is other maps that we can load up for practice flights, dogfights etc... A summer version of Stalingrad would be good, so mission builders aren't just left with the choice of flying on a snow covered terrain. That would get boring very quickly.

[FlatSpinMan]

Requiem - I can't use the RoF ME now but when I do I'll use those ideas. They sound really practical and time efficient.

 

Trooper - I'd love a summer version too, but it'd mean every single object getting a repaint, plus, presumably some structures' damage would need to be revised. I guess/hope it'll come at a later date.

[Trooper117]

Even if we don't get a full Stalingrad summer map, some smaller maps for online play would get the masses up and playing...

[FTC_Karaya]

I found the videos made by Syn_Vander incredibly helpful

 

 

What I think is not very well thought through is the fact that the ME is seperate from the game... and you cannot run both at the same time. Which means that in order to test a mission you have to close the ME and go into RoF. Then you stumble over something that isnt right, you close down RoF and start the ME again (which actually takes a bit of time). That is one point that IL-2 and even Cliffs have on RoF, you can access the ME in the sim and test a mission with one click of a button!

[SYN_Ricky]

What I think is not very well thought through is the fact that the ME is seperate from the game... and you cannot run both at the same time. Which means that in order to test a mission you have to close the ME and go into RoF. Then you stumble over something that isnt right, you close down RoF and start the ME again (which actually takes a bit of time). That is one point that IL-2 and even Cliffs have on RoF, you can access the ME in the sim and test a mission with one click of a button!

Requiem (IIRC) posted somwhere a workaround for this, so he's able to run both together and test stuff pretty quickly. I think the trick is to run ROF in windowed mode or something....

Edited August 23, 2013 by SYN_Ricky

[Requiem]

Requiem - I can't use the RoF ME now but when I do I'll use those ideas. They sound really practical and time efficient.

 

Trooper - I'd love a summer version too, but it'd mean every single object getting a repaint, plus, presumably some structures' damage would need to be revised. I guess/hope it'll come at a later date.

I have a few consistently structured "groups" I made specifically to help people get started in the RoF ME, but I haven't gotten around to making them public yet as I have a few more I want to do before I release a bunch of them. I doubt people are going to bother to learn the RoF ME before BoS comes out, but hopefully they take a look at the groups when they are released because groups really help both time wise and in understanding mission logic.

 

What I think is not very well thought through is the fact that the ME is seperate from the game... and you cannot run both at the same time. Which means that in order to test a mission you have to close the ME and go into RoF. Then you stumble over something that isnt right, you close down RoF and start the ME again (which actually takes a bit of time). That is one point that IL-2 and even Cliffs have on RoF, you can access the ME in the sim and test a mission with one click of a button!

Running them at the same time is possible, but before you run RoF and the ME at the same time you need to have the basic layout of your mission already complete and saved. Then you start RoF in windowed mode (I run at a lower resolution than native for testing a mission) and load your mission. After the mission is loaded then you quickly alt-tab and start the ME. The ME will have a graphical error in that the ground will be black, but since you should be looking to test the mission logic this isn't a problem you need to worry about.

[FTC_Karaya]

Those groups would be highly interesting, is there an ETA?

[FlyingNutcase]

Wow, I've just seen the pre-order and sample vids, screenies etc. The IL2 buzz seems to be back. Time to engineer some time into the schedule. Fingers crossed for a user-friendly mission editor and a 3rd-party friendly mission file.

[LG1.Farber]

Hi FlyingNutcase, are yo gonna make another set of FMB vids? 

[Jason_Williams]

Guys,

 

It's the same ME as ROF. No time for changes.

 

Jason

[FlatSpinMan]

Thanks for the info, Jason. I guess we'd best start getting to grips with it then.

 

@All - check out the links to SYN_Vander's videos in JG52 Karaya's link above. I only watched a few but they make a tricky process a lot less tricky, it seemed to me.

And requiem - if you have any tips or materials you'd like to share, perhaps we could set up a Mission Editor training thread so we can hit the ground running when we get our hands on Stalingrad.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Guys,

 

It's the same ME as ROF. No time for changes.

 

Jason

 

 

*SOBBING and GNASHING OF TEETH*

 

Is there no way to come up with a more accessable mission editor, at least in the future?

 

I watched the tutorial vids and it was like watching a French film dubbed into Japanese to me, without subtitles.

I spent hours and hours trying to make a simple map to learn what was up in RoF's editor and just gave up because

the amount of time spent didn't have any playback in usable output.

 

Jason, a "mission building" utility that is accessable to a large number of players is an essential part of a successful sim.

I know that you must know this, but I need to reinforce the thought.

 

Building scenarios for my guys is one of the great points of satisfaction for me in the current IL2/46. 

Edited August 24, 2013 by ElAurens

[Ice_Eagle]

Well comparing this ME to IL2 1946 is apples to oranges so I don't see the point. Besides, RoF ME isn't that difficult to use.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Well comparing this ME to IL2 1946 is apples to oranges so I don't see the point. Besides, RoF ME isn't that difficult to use.

 I must take exception sir.

 

It's entirely too complex.

 

I'm not a programmer, code writer, or other IT professional.

 

I'm just an old guy that likes history and air power, and never had any issues learning the older sim's FMB.

 

The current RoF Mission Editor is really just a thinly disguised developers map making tool, which is great for those that are into making flight sims.

 

I just want to make scenarios on the maps we have, not re-invent the wheel every time.

[leitmotiv]

Good reason to start figuring out RoF FMB   

[Jason_Williams]

El Aurens,

 

I understand your frustration and I know our ME is not that user friendly, but it is much more powerful than the old IL-2 ME. I hope to marshal the power of the community and those that do understand it to provide guidance and content for others who are not as proficient to begin to use it for BOS until some other solution is viable. That's the only option I have and the sooner we come to grips with it the better off we all will be. We can all work together to slay the dragon. BTW the ROF ME was NEVER intended to be an end-user tool. It is a developer tool and was only released due to pressure from the early ROF community before launch. Due to language issues it was never fully explained what they were getting and everyone had pre-conceived notions about what it would be. So finding fault with something that was never designed for public use is a bit misplaced. I'm glad we at least put it our there at all.

 

Also, the QMB in BOS will have a bit more features than the ROF QMB so you will have a few more options for quick fights which might make things easier for you. And with the current ROF update team has dramatically increased the speed in which missions load hence making testing easier with our ME.

 

Our mission formats can be manipulated by third party tools as Pat Wilson, Andeas Osswalt and Gabby Lazar have demonstrated previously. I also never understood why no one ever made a tool similar to the UQMB for the original IL-2 for ROF. It's certainly possible. A lot is possible with what we provide as a base. I suspect so much untrue crap was spewed about ROF that is simply did not interest talented 3rd Parties to try anything or WWI just does not appeal to the masses as WWII thereby limiting the talent pool. A lot of what you all love so much about the original IL-2 was done by talented 3rd Parties. We hope that spirit will be re-kindled with BOS.

 

Jason

[=69.GIAP=STENKA69GIAP]

 I must take exception sir.

 

It's entirely too complex.

 

I'm not a programmer, code writer, or other IT professional.

 

I just want to make scenarios on the maps we have, not re-invent the wheel every time.

It's as complex as you want it to be,

 

What we have here is a full professional mission builder,

 

Now, I am an Older person, 57+, I am an IT professional, I did cut code 20  years ago and I have been building missions in ROF since the day that it was launched and in IL2 for the last 10 years.

 

Compared to 10 years ago we are lucky, there are good introductory tutorials, there is an excellent manual which I was reading this morning and found excellent new stuff (of course I'm a real man and don't RTFM).

 

You have to merely limit yourself to simple stuff that you would have done in IL2 and with a bit of guidance you will turn that out in ROF/BOS.

 

Now The last 2 years I have been building ROF campaigns with Biggles from LvA, he is a bit younger than me, but not a lot, he is not an IT professional, he actualy is a "chef patissiere" specialist in chocolate and hasn't cut a line of code in his life.

 

It took an hour to convert him from IL2 and now he is bringing new stuff to me to see how much more tricky stuff we can jam into the missions.

 

Oh yes the mission builder can do amazing stuff, but it does simple stuff too.

 

I'm sorry if I'm a bit tetchy here but when people keep saying it is impossible to do what we do every week it grates.

 

Yes at the begining, there were, no manuals, no tutotrials no mission builder no nothing.

 

That is not the case  now.

 

If you want help, why not ask for it by PM, My time is devoted in priority to squad members, then allied or enemy squads, then the impossible.

[=LD=Hethwill]

Well spoken. It is better to have a tool that does more than we need, so we can live with any expendable details here and there than having something we want to do and devote many days around some Dev Kit trying to figure how to unlock a certain function only to learn that it isn't there in the first place.

 

Plus in the end it will always be team work not a single man job, right !? -  scenario, model placing, order of battle, objectives. etc - everyone working together in a Campaign adds a bit to the Mission Editor and can use and re-use the saved scenarios.

Edited August 24, 2013 by =LD=Hethwill

[Jason_Williams]

Stenka is correct.  A great way to put it. Thanks.

 

Jason

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

I watched a video tutorial on teh ROF builder, and the basics weren't that different from the IL2 builder. I am certain I'll be able to build simple single missions. I quite look forward to try it out, the scenery looks gorgeous so far. Stringing missions together to make campaigns was always a bit of a bother il IL2, I usually took a pre-existing campaign and replaced the missions. Perhaps some ready made annotated sample missions templates would help ease those not terribly technically inclined into it?

[BlitzPig_EL]

Thanks for the reply Jason.

 

I do appreciate your interaction with the community, and especially curmudgeons like myself.

 

I will try to come to grips with it, as it seems it's all we will have. 

 

Thanks again.

 

Terry

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

ElAurens, here's the video tutorial I found, if not easy, at least understandable:

 

[Freycinet]

I haven't done any FMB Work in RoF, so I apologize if this has already been done, but is there a page on riseofflight.com dedicated to the learning ressources? - That would be great: it only needs to be links to youtube vids, wikis, etc...

[SYN_Haashashin]

Friendly Flier, I spend a week or so following SYN_Vander tutorials and after some questions asked to him, questions that where not answer on the tutorial (very complete), I was able to build a simple and nice SP mission.

After that I took a look at one of Vanders mission on the ME and I could actually kinda do a MP mission starting from nothing and using Vander groups as I undestood the logic of how it works by reverse engineering.

One thing is very important with RoF, future BoS, ME is that you need to set groups that work, as Requiem told allready, that way is a lot easier to build missions in the future. I also have a lot of groups for SP and MP if anyone is interested just send me a PM.

I am not a IT engineer or ever got IT education or coding, Im also in the hospitality business, and I can actually build a simple MP mission in couple of days now.

That said, the more complex you want the mission to be, the more work you have to do with the ME, but I can tell you that you feel good when all that work is up in the server and with no problems (usually after 5 or more versions from my part ) and I have to say that is all thanks to the use of groups.

Edited August 24, 2013 by SYN_Haashashin

[LukeFF]

I haven't done any FMB Work in RoF, so I apologize if this has already been done, but is there a page on riseofflight.com dedicated to the learning ressources? - That would be great: it only needs to be links to youtube vids, wikis, etc...

 

These are two of the best resources for mission building in ROF:

 

http://riseofflight.com/en/community/usefulmaterials (See the Mission Editor Lessons section)

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL724688FAC76E4385

[SYN_Vander]

I could do some more tutorials if there is demand. Since I made the videos I picked up a lot of new techniques. Maybe something on how to spawn/ delete objects during the mission?

[hiro]

thanks jason for the update, even though it wasn't what lots didn't want to hear, but you give hope it will be redesigned in the future 

 

El Aurens,

 

I understand your frustration and I know our ME is not that user friendly, but it is much more powerful than the old IL-2 ME. I hope to marshal the power of the community and those that do understand it to provide guidance and content for others who are not as proficient to begin to use it for BOS until some other solution is viable. That's the only option I have and the sooner we come to grips with it the better off we all will be. We can all work together to slay the dragon. BTW the ROF ME was NEVER intended to be an end-user tool. It is a developer tool and was only released due to pressure from the early ROF community before launch. Due to language issues it was never fully explained what they were getting and everyone had pre-conceived notions about what it would be. So finding fault with something that was never designed for public use is a bit misplaced. I'm glad we at least put it our there at all.

 

Also, the QMB in BOS will have a bit more features than the ROF QMB so you will have a few more options for quick fights which might make things easier for you. And with the current ROF update team has dramatically increased the speed in which missions load hence making testing easier with our ME.

 

Our mission formats can be manipulated by third party tools as Pat Wilson, Andeas Osswalt and Gabby Lazar have demonstrated previously. I also never understood why no one ever made a tool similar to the UQMB for the original IL-2 for ROF. It's certainly possible. A lot is possible with what we provide as a base. I suspect so much untrue crap was spewed about ROF that is simply did not interest talented 3rd Parties to try anything or WWI just does not appeal to the masses as WWII thereby limiting the talent pool. A lot of what you all love so much about the original IL-2 was done by talented 3rd Parties. We hope that spirit will be re-kindled with BOS.

 

Jason

 

Well at least here the devs are open to finding another viable solution . . . 

[CaptainCrunch]

I could do some more tutorials if there is demand. Since I made the videos I picked up a lot of new techniques. Maybe something on how to spawn/ delete objects during the mission?

 

Vander, I can tell you with utmost certainty that myself and many others would find info like that very useful and much appreciated. I also think there's a real need for tutorials on working with the 'Check Zone' spawn trigger and the 'Complex Trigger' for detecting human players entering a zone during an online mission. I was never able to find any real instruction on using Complex Triggers.

 

Tips on managing the clutter would also allow the average user to come to terms with it far easier than they otherwise would (or would not, as is often the case). Missions look like circuit diagrams after a while, or balls of tangled colored thread. If there were more intuitive ways to clean up all the mission logic and object/target links (and not just enable/disable them through the console buttons since they remove all of them). Yes, you can group objects... but is there a way to say, easily isolate just the flight you're working with so you only see all of those relevant vectors? Tips like that would really go a long way in helping new users. 

[=FI=Nellip42]

I think the fact that the FMB would be broadly similar to that in RoF was known, but thanks to Jason for confirming.  I have to say I am a little disappointed and worried about this aspect of BoS.  I have written hundreds of missions for IL2 over the years, but never managed to get to grips with RoF, and reading the comments above I was not alone. 

 

My worry is that a lot of the strength of IL2 over the years came from user created content: missions, campaigns, skins and so on.  I think the missions and campaigns were fuelled with am FMB that was (whilst a bit idiosyncratic) easy to get to grips with.  What will the longevity of BoS be like if we don't see user created coming through?  I hope I am wrong, and I for one will make a concerted effort to get to grips with the FMB in BoS, but I do think it could be a problem.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Its not a critical problem but it is a weakness, there should be a fair few people who can get to grips with the FMB of BOS, but casual players will be put off, and nowhere near the number of people who could make a coop in 20mins to play with friends via Hyperlobby in IL2.

 

Maybe thats why the devs dont see coops as a priority?

[Trooper117]

Now we know... and I agree on previous posts. With IL2 it was pretty simple to knock up co-ops for your squad, plus, the prolific amounts of user campaigns and missions was a great reason to continue playing, as there were many new offline campaigns etc to immerse yourself in on a regular basis (it's not all about online).

There were many who loved flying the user made stuff offline.

Compare that with the very small amount of campaigns that surface with RoF. Regardless of the reasons, yes, we all know that the ME was not supposed to be released to us minions in the first place, but I would have thought that the demand, (and it has been asked for many times) for a more user friendly version, with a really detailed set of instructions on how to use the thing, would have been seriously considered for BoS.

It has been said by the dev's themselves that future expansions and add ons would come only as a direct result of sales from the BoS product.

One way of helping that would have been an IL2 type ME at launch, so that the mission makers amongst us could further the interest and enthusiasm of all by producing many excellent campaigns and missions from the get go!

There will be a few reading this thread that will just not understand why many keep going on aboutl IL2/Forgotten Battles, but it is because of that game and its innovation that quite a few of us are still flying it today.

That should be more than enough reasons for future Dev's to look at the many good ideas it had and try if possible to incorporate some of them into their products... (just my modest and humble ramblings at work here )