bf 109 flaps and speeds (landing) question

[indiaciki]

I'm going through all the 109 manuals (german and english translations of finnish MT):

 

the basic question is: whole pattern with flaps full (40 deg) or downwind with 20 deg and full flaps on final ? (contradictory information)

 

where is the acoustic signal when flaps are down and gear up ????????

 

Glide at 150 km/h IAS  - steep approach (E manual) or 180 km/h ?

 

Tochdown with all models seems to be 165 km/h

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPfTuZqUovc

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Look for Chuck's and other's guides. My approach is about 210, flare to 165, touch at 150. Three point all Bf models with the tail wheel locked.......no exceptions. No stall horns.

[indiaciki]

Your approach makes sense. Flare at 165 touch 150. Other sources seem way too fast. When do you apply full flaps?

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

1/3 at each phase of the pattern. Full flaps and gear just before turning final. If you get bounced before the last turn you can clean up and accelerate/maneuver much faster.

[SR-F_Winger]

Look for Chuck's and other's guides. My approach is about 210, flare to 165, touch at 150. Three point all Bf models with the tail wheel locked.......no exceptions. No stall horns.

This. I also use full flaps and threepoint it. Works great. I find tailwheel lock not necessray. But that might just be me.

[Reflected]

I also approach at 200-210. When I start to pull back on the stick I don't check the ASI anymore. I concentrate on pulling the stick back just enough to keep the plane from touching the ground, right until the horizon reaches the three point position vs the instrument panel.

 

I lower the gear at the end of the downwind leg, apply 1/2 flaps crosswind, and deploy full flaps on final.

[indiaciki]

That's intersting. I approach with 200-210 Km/h steep (as it is stressed in all german manuals). Once I level over the runway speed drops to 160 and it touches down. Point is: This only works with the nose trimmed up (-2 or -3). This is also written in the finnish manual for the MT. So everything is as descibed in Chuck's manual except that you have to trim her nose up (-3). That's confusing. In the original checklist it only says full flaps on turn to final and "Trim !" 

[LastRightsXIII]

 

 

I also approach at 200-210. When I start to pull back on the stick I don't check the ASI anymore. I concentrate on pulling the stick back just enough to keep the plane from touching the ground, right until the horizon reaches the three point position vs the instrument panel.

 

This only works with the nose trimmed up (-2 or -3)

 

Same with me. But trim set at (1)

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I set trim for max cruise before takeoff and don't touch it again for the entire flight. The F4 is somewhere between the nose down 2 and 3. The G2 is all the way forward.

[indiaciki]

From the finnish manual:

 

F. Landing

 

6. Stabiliser to ca. -3 position or according to feel

Glide speed 200 - 220 km/h. when far from the field, at treshold lower to 180 km/h

bf109g6_english.pdf

[indiaciki]

In the German manual for Bf 109 E it says:

 

"V. Landing

 

4. Flaps full (40 deg). Trim! Both wheels can be held and used for a certain period with one hand simultaneously."

 

That definitly means nose up ! It's the wheels direction. Flaps down and trim nose up is the only way to use both wheels at the same time.

 

It's on page 13 of the original bf109 E handbook 

 

http://1.airwar.z8.ru/bibl/bf109e.pdf

[indiaciki]

2 Landings with trim -3, full flaps:

 

[indiaciki]

INTER-OFFICE MEMORANDUM ARMY AIR FORCES MATERIAL COMMAND Office of The Commanding GeneralWright Field, Dayton, Ohio1 March 1944

To: Chief, Fighter Flight Test Branch

Subject:   Pilot's Comments on ME 109G, AAF No. EB-102

 

 h.    Changes in Trim when Operating Landing Gear and Flaps.               There is very little change in trim with the landing gear up or down. The airplane becomes increasingly nose-heavy as the landing flaps are lowered but there is sufficient travel in the stabilizer trim to provide for any condition.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Spoke with Kyöst Karhila (32,25 kills). He said that he used trim by the feel during landing, to stabilize a nice glide path and using throttle to keep descent steady. On longer fields 200km/h approach and flare at around 160km/h. On short fields the common practise was to deploy gear and flaps and pop out leading edge slats, then keep the plane in this state with enough power. Speed usually 180km/h and then a 3-pointer. He said it was very easy to keep the Bf109G in control and you had to start preparation for landing in time, flaps were a bit slow to deploy.

Edited September 27, 2014 by LLv34_Flanker

[Nil]

2 Landings with trim -3, full flaps:

 

 

Damn man! You had me grab my Hotas and try to 'clean up' the approach. Was it a full hurricane at the time No hard feelings I hope.. but I were really nervous IRL!

[III/JG52_Otto_-I-]

 

 

where is the acoustic signal when flaps are down and gear up ???????? 

 

The 109 had a little horn which sounded in the cockpit when the flaps were deployed, and not the landing gear down.

Its purpose was to prevent accidents due to landing with landing gear retracted, avoid damage if they dived with flaps deployed.

Obviously the horn is not modeled, but if I was in the IL2-1946.

 

The automatic slats are not modeled correctly too in IL2-BoS, because it doesn't remain deployed with the plane stopped like in the reality. At present day, in IL2-BoS, the slats retract below 80 km/h and this may prolong the landing and take off runs..

See de Slats position in a real Bf-109G in the video minute 0:42, and 0:50

Edited September 27, 2014 by III/JG52_Otto_Mas

[PreachR]

I've been getting much smoother landings flaring at 200-210 km/h, like many of the others said. In my experience, when trying to flare at 180 or less, you run the risk of falling too hard on your gear.

I set trim for max cruise before takeoff and don't touch it again for the entire flight. The F4 is somewhere between the nose down 2 and 3. The G2 is all the way forward.

 

I do nearly the same thing, but I usually climb out with trim at 0.

[indiaciki]

I've been getting much smoother landings flaring at 200-210 km/h, like many of the others said. In my experience, when trying to flare at 180 or less, you run the risk of falling too hard on your gear.

 

I do nearly the same thing, but I usually climb out with trim at 0.

 

You're right about that. Flaring at 190-200 km/h rather than 180 km/h or less.

Edited October 1, 2014 by indiaciki

[Uther]

My pattern

 

45° entry to downind 350Kmh dropping gear

 

Enter downwind @500m/200Kmh deploying 20° flaps trimming to neutral

 

Deploy 30° flaps abeam the threshold @300m/200Kmh

 

45° angle to threshold turn Base

 

Deploy full flaps mid Base leg when making the threshold is assured.

 

Bleed speed off to 180Kmh on final

 

Touchdown approx 165Kmh in 3 point stance

 

Hold full aft elevator while decreasing flaps to 20° during roll out. This helps with bouncing into flight again for rough landing or gusts and sets you up for touch and go if you desire.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

2 Landings with trim -3, full flaps:

Hm you approach seems to be quite steeply and your flare didn't seerve the purpose correctly. If oyu watch the 1st landing closely you'll see the aircraft had greater downward momentum and still let the plane drop despite the flare.

 

My landing pattern at no to low wind conditions:

 

final at about 100-180m altitude, deploy flaps about 20-30°, keep 200km/h slightly reducing to 180 the closer I get, once 30m off the gournd reduce throttle to idle and let the plane bleed speed while flaring smoothly, than keep pulling at touchdown angle unitl aircraft reaches 160-150km/h. It infact wiill touch down smoothly on it's own that way. My trim varies during the final approach, mean I slightly increase it after deploying flaps and reducing speed to help with the smooth flare.

[indiaciki]

Thanks & danke

 

Yes, it's vertical speed that's way too high. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Now that you've mastered it try:

 

500 kph, 100m and 90 degrees to the strip.  Check six, break turn and climb to 400m while bleeding speed to 300 kph. Continue in a gentle turn to final and finish as usual. It's a load of fun and protects you from vultures at the critical end point of your flight. Not sure if it's realistic/historical but the Navy guys around here do break turns pretty consistently in their F-18's. 

[LastRightsXIII]

Every one should have this up his sleeve.

It not only works it's fun too.