Deflection

[Reflected]

Folks,

 

Is it only me, or the amount of deflection you need to apply in BoS is surprisingly small? I'm not saying it's not realistic, I've never attacked an airplane in real life. But compared to CloD, and other sims where you need to aim way in front of your target it's very different. You almost have your sight ON the target all the time. I'm just not used to this.

 

What do you think?

[Finkeren]

I think it seems realistic, and I'm not really sure it's that much different from ClOD or other WW2 sims. It's just that in BoS, we tend to get really, really close to the target before opening up. In most combat flight sims I've played, I'm usually able to hit reliably from about 300m. In BoS hitting a maneuvering target beyond 150m is something of a gamble. Shorter distances = less deflection.

[Karost]

DF  shooting  in IL2-BOS seem more easy then IL2 old day

 

But when  I compare to the gun camera in youtube  it seem closer  just  IL2-BOS seem a little bit bigger power  damage .... just a little bigger

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv8rFPLN_Fg

 

[imho] 

[J4SCrisZeri]

Sorry about the language problem (my problem)

by deflection you mean when bullets hit the enemy plane from a certain angle and they "bounce" away instead of hitting and leaving a hole?

[Reflected]

Sorry about the language problem (my problem)

by deflection you mean when bullets hit the enemy plane from a certain angle and they "bounce" away instead of hitting and leaving a hole?

 

No, no, I mean how far ahead of your target you have to aim.

[Brano]

I am total "both hands left" when it comes to deflection shooting so I cant comment on this

[Brano]

Yeah,for sure,soviet constructions,as they are all "flying cheats" ....

[Praetor]

I have kind of noticed this.  Made shots that surprised me, thought I was lagging a bit then...oh...smoke...

[Finkeren]

Well, I just looked a bit into this. Apart from the MG/FF all weapons present in BoS have fairly high muzzle velocities in the ballpark of 700-800m/s.

If we do a thought experiment and assume a situation where both the shooter and the target flies 400km/h (that's propably a bit too fast compared to what we currently see in BoS dogfights, but we wanna err on the side of more deflection) and assume a muzzle velocity of 700m/s we can say, that the projectile moves at a velocity 6 times faster than the target, meaning that for a given distance to the target you only have to aim 1/6 of that distance in front of the plane to hit (here we ignore that the projectile loses speed with distance, but that only really come into play at longer distances) since most WW2 fighters are around 9-10m in length, it's safe to assume that for any distance below 500m and from any angle you'll always hit your target by simply aiming for the tip of the nose (assuming you're not picky about which parts of the plane you hit)

I don't think many pilots here do deflection shooting at distances longer than 500m, so don't worry too much about it. Just aim for the nose.

The funny thing is, that as the angle of deflection increases (the more perpendicular your targets flight path is to your own) the less deflection is needed, because you can begin to add your own planes velocity to the muzzle velocity, even though the shot may seem harder.

 

Perhaps a moderator would be so good as to put a note on that post telling people to ignore it?

Edited September 22, 2014 by Rama
As per OP request

[Karost]

Well I have very old document  ( translate from thai to Eng ) about deflection shooting  woo doo trick :D

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=th&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thaiflight.com%2Fmach%2Fmodules.php%3Fname%3DForums%26file%3Dviewtopic%26p%3D268460%23268460&edit-text=

 

here below is deflection shooting correction :

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=th&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thaiflight.com%2Fmach%2Fmodules.php%3Fname%3DForums%26file%3Dviewtopic%26p%3D268680%23268680&edit-text=

 

all from IL2 old day  but  I not sure it will work on this IL2-BOS   just keep practice in VETERAN AI Yak-1  :D

 

if AI be able to made a 90 degree deflection shooting me at 250 meter so you can do the same :D

Edited September 22, 2014 by Karost

[=69.GIAP=RADKO]

Do you mainly fly as the Axis?

 

There are many reasons why not much deflection is needed or not. It could be just down to the current skill level of pilots, a slow moving target obviously requires little deflection. Quite often flying as Russia I've seen other Russian pilots breaking too soon only to bleed what energy they have left and resulting in a easy kill. Speed has the biggest impact on deflection and at the moment I'm sure many of us are regularly making mistakes and losing speed unnecessarily. Now when I'm trying to get a deflection shot on a 109 or 190 it's usually when they've tried to boom and zoom me. It's incredibly hard to get a decent deflection shot because they're going so bloody fast and climbing at a ridiculous pace (not criticising), it makes it very difficult to pull a quick one because such a large deflection is require, especially if they're pulling up at the correct climb in a nice gradual vertical turn. 

 

Other things to consider is perhaps you're a good shot and the damage model might come into question that it doesn't take much at all to cripple your opponent. However that's another subject that is closely relates to this one.

Edited September 22, 2014 by =69.GIAP=RADKO

[Finkeren]

I just tried to do the calculation again, and you can just ignore my post above. I was off by a factor of 10 silly me.

 

Perhaps a moderator would be so good as to put a note on that post telling people to ignore it?

Edited September 22, 2014 by Finkeren

[Streiff]

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/10835-luftwaffe-gun-camera-footage/

 

 

Wouldn't call that little so i assume you are talking about allied/russian ac`s

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

Deflection shooting is about determining Angle Off Tail (AOT), alignment of the pipper with the cord of the fuselage of the enemy and placing the enemy in the proper mil of the reticle.

 

What I am finding is that when flying the German aircraft things work out about right.  When in a Russian aircraft I am having much much difficulty, i.e., many more missed shots.  Yes, it definitely could be me but it just seems off for some reason.

 

I have been sticking mainly to MG vs cannon.  Need to do more testing.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

OK, did more testing and made some adjustments and I'm good.

 

One thing that I think needs adjustment/fixing is to keep the size of the reticle in the gunsight the same when adjusting the view in and out with the Insert and Home keys to Save a view.  I wouldn't think there should be loss of part of the reticle regardless of how the view is finally set.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

Funny, cause I find the exact opposite the case as the OP.  It seems that I have to pull more defection than I am used to.  Many times so much defection that I'm shooting "blind" to line up correct.  In all the other titles, I was a crack shot at defection, but in this game I had to retrain myself.  (Been flying QM with aiming assit on to get an idea of how this game treats defection.)  If you are pulling any type of G's your rounds drop way below the target.  This could also be a case of convergence not being in the game yet.  I don't even think convergence is locked at 500 meters.  I think they just threw that number in the game to pass it off and not draw hate for incomplete work.  The rounds never cross at 500 meters much less 5000 meters.  Convergence right now is just broke.  Your just filling the air with lead at this point.     

[76SQN-FatherTed]

I am total "both hands left" when it comes to deflection shooting so I cant comment on this

 

If I was "both hands left" when flying no other bugger would stand a chance.

[=69.GIAP=RADKO]

 This could also be a case of convergence not being in the game yet.  I don't even think convergence is locked at 500 meters. 

 

I think you're right. Try the IL2, it demonstrates that there is no convergence. When I have the pipper locked on a tank and I hit the trigger the bullets hit beside it.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

I am "both hands and both feet left" when it comes to taxiing, but I digress.

[Karost]

This is what I learn from AI hit me in IL2-BOS... take a look.   AI bf109  set 5 DFR to shoot me   my old table is for IL2-old day so I need to reduce mv speed ...( may be )

 

Edited September 23, 2014 by Karost

[FlatSpinMan]

Well in this thread we have people finding the amount of deflection needed is lesser and greater, and that Russian planes are easier than the German ones, which also happen to be easier than the Russians.

Shall we write this one off as "subjective"?

[unreasonable]

I just tried to do the calculation again, and you can just ignore my post above. I was off by a factor of 10 silly me.

 

Perhaps a moderator would be so good as to put a note on that post telling people to ignore it?

Wish I had read the whole thread first - thought your post was below your usual high standard!

 

FWIW 400kmp = 111 mps, if you are flying at 90% deflection and shooting at 200m range with a muzzle velocity of 700mps, the first projectile will cross the target line after approx 1/4 second. 200/(700mps+111mps).

 

In that time the target will have moved 28 metres, so aiming at the nose is a clear miss.

 

Not only that but this ignores decision lag (between thinking "fire now" and pressing the trigger) and any delay between trigger press and projectiles leaving the barrel. Allow at least another 1/4 second for this and the target has moved 56 metres!

 

Also it is better to err in front of the target than behind - you are only wasting a few shells rather than all of them, so add some more lead.

 

So correct deflection from 90% is more like several rings of the gunsight.

Well in this thread we have people finding the amount of deflection needed is lesser and greater, and that Russian planes are easier than the German ones, which also happen to be easier than the Russians.

Shall we write this one off as "subjective"?

Absolutely not. It is a matter of geometry, which some people may have got wrong (quite possibly including me this early in the morning), others right.

 

Geometry is not subjective: pretending it is simply makes everyone lazy.

Edited September 23, 2014 by unreasonable

[SharpeXB]

Not only that but this ignores decision lag (between thinking "fire now" and pressing the trigger) and any delay between trigger press and projectiles leaving the barrel. Allow at least another 1/4 second for this and the target has moved 56 metres!

Good point. The reaction time for most people, even a good athlete, is about 1/4 second.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I don't fly the Russian crates but I can categorically say, the Bf109 is a freakin' scalpel. The rounds impact in the center if the sight during level flight as they should. Simply point and shoot. Lead and deflection is pretty easy. Even with the rediculous 500m convergence. The weapons package is so narrow it doesn't matter much.

 

In a high crossing lead shot your target SHOULD be below your nose and outside the ring. The Fw is more difficult because vertical convergence has not been implemented yet. Deflection shooting, however, is still doable. You arent going to get a lot of hits. Mostly trying to disable the engine or kill the pilot, regardless of your choice of aircraft. Machine gunna are better for deflection shooting due to their high rate of fire. (I still use all of the guns, regardless.)

 

I prefer to catch my enemy at the top of a pull over when he is slow, in an Fw. It's devestating when it works.

Edited September 23, 2014 by HerrMurf

[SharpeXB]

Many times so much defection that I'm shooting "blind" to line up correct.

Realize of course that blind leading means you've lost sight of the enemy. Lose sight lose the fight...

[unreasonable]

Realize of course that blind leading means you've lost sight of the enemy. Lose sight lose the fight...

Maybe but if you are in a turning fight and pulling Gs the target will be below your nose: an excellent reason to avoid turning fights IMHO!

[VBF-12_Snake9]

The Fw is more difficult because vertical convergence has not been implemented yet.

 

You say vertical convergence is not implemented, well it's sure not horizontal convergence implemented either.  Have anyone followed the rounds.  It's awful. 

 

Realize of course that blind leading means you've lost sight of the enemy. Lose sight lose the fight...

 

And you realize of course high angle defection (blind) is half the battle in a BnZ plane.  If you don't learn blind defection, then you lose half your kills.   

 

 

 

I think what we can conclude is that convergence is a broken mess.  Just take the 109 and 190.  Completely different results.  109 the rounds travel somewhat true, while the 190, the rounds drop below the sight and never, ever, cross the sight.  These kinds of results shouldn't be different from plane to plane, but idea of converging on the target at a certain point, should be true for all planes. 

Edited September 23, 2014 by VBF-12Snake9

[unreasonable]

And you realize of course high angle defection (blind) is half the battle in a BnZ plane.  If you don't learn blind defection, then you lose half your kills.

Can you explain that to me? I prefer BnZ to turning precisely because I can see the target when I fire - often longish range, high deflection but I do not mind that. But I am usually diving pulling minimum Gs - why would I be blind?

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Realize of course that blind leading means you've lost sight of the enemy. Lose sight lose the fight...

That mostly pertains to losing him and letting him behind your 3/9 line. If you engage, pull through your target, extend and reevaluate you should be fine - provided you maintain your E. You can lose sight as long as you don't lose your situational awareness.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

Can you explain that to me? I prefer BnZ to turning precisely because I can see the target when I fire - often longish range, high deflection but I do not mind that. But I am usually diving pulling minimum Gs - why would I be blind?

Well what you are talking about is when the enemy is flying straight along unaware of you.  There should be no deflection or very little in your example.  Not all enemies are going to be that unaware.  They will see you dropping in and probably bank a hard right, trying to cut the angle of attack.  You have two choices then.   

 

1.  Pull high angle deflection, in which the target will be under your nose (and you will be blind when you fire).  Many BnZ kills are accomplished this way.  You lose nothing firing high angle, because if you miss you just go to Step two. 

 

2.  Pull up and extend.  If you have enough attitude and speed repeat the process.  If not, play the drag and bag game. 

 

If you played 1946 any, just think of a engagement between the 190 and spitfire, or hellcat and zeke.  Your principles are the same.   

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

You say vertical convergence is not implemented, well it's sure not horizontal convergence implemented either.  Have anyone followed the rounds.  It's awful. 

 

 

And you realize of course high angle defection (blind) is half the battle in a BnZ plane.  If you don't learn blind defection, then you lose half your kills.   

 

 

 

I think what we can conclude is that convergence is a broken mess.  Just take the 109 and 190.  Completely different results.  109 the rounds travel somewhat true, while the 190, the rounds drop below the sight and never, ever, cross the sight.  These kinds of results shouldn't be different from plane to plane, but idea of converging on the target at a certain point, should be true for all planes. 

I don't use the outboard guns. With the naked eye, it appears horizontal convergence is implemented but like all of the aircraft in BOS it has a harmonic component. The horizontal is not really critical with the Fw's relatively narrow weapons package. Vertical is not implemented and can be seen because the rounds should arc above center and then fall back to the middle of the sight at 500m. The rounds never rise above the first tic below center in horizontal flight. They fall away as soon as they leave the barrel due to gravity.

 

I completely agree there should be little to no difference between the Fw and Bf in relation to convergence and the Revi sight.

Good point. The reaction time for most people, even a good athlete, is about 1/4 second.

It's closer to 3/4 of a second. 3/4 to recognize a threat and another 3/4 of a second to react to the threat in a gunfight from a holster is generally accepted. 1/4 second is reserved for exceptional athletes.

Edited September 23, 2014 by HerrMurf

[Finkeren]

Wish I had read the whole thread first - thought your post was below your usual high standard!.

Well, in my "defense", I was running a fever of 39.6 (centigrade) while trying to do that calculation in my head while typing.

 

Lesson learned. Do not try to tackle simple geometry while ill

 

Your post seems to hit the mark a lot better btw.

[unreasonable]

Get well soon!

[Finkeren]

I sure hope so, I'm flying to Barcelona on vacation tonight

[Karost]

And you realize of course high angle defection (blind) is half the battle in a BnZ plane.  If you don't learn blind defection, then you lose half your kills.   

 

 

I'm agree with @Snake9  The  blind sport defection shoot skill is very hard to  practice but it pay off a lot  ,  many people deny this concept  inlcuding my team mate. so I have to made a lot of screen shot and  table deflection guild line show this concept is work  : ( see in my deflection correction link )

 

If the target move from left to right  or top to buttom there is no problme to line a deflection on target flight path but if your target is stay under your nose when

you pull lead and you lose sigh off target ... and that become a blind sport deflection shoot

 

ok I will  share my old woo doo trick again  see blow picture:

 

 

 

 

you have to draw his flying path and marking your gun solution in your brain

the blue ring is position to line your gun sigh for snapshot

then the red ring is the time marker to open fire

 

mostly if your target is a spit or yak he will commit turn fighting by nature that mean

he will move closer to you in next 2 second while you pulling your gunsight

to the blue ring .. this will become The blind sport deflection shooting

 

in next 1,5 second your eyes will lost sight but your brain still see your a gun solution.

 

 

Look like  I'm shooting an empty space ???

 

 

So let see from out side.

 

 

this moment I still lost sight of spit but pulling the trigger

 

 

I think that is 120 degree deflection shooting

 

 

I hope my woo doo trick can help you guys in IL2-BOS  

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

One of the best explanations of deflection shooting I've ever seen. Now if I can only learn to implement it!!!!

 

 

It appears the video is by our BOS pilot, ZG26 Ruhland.

Edited September 23, 2014 by HerrMurf

[unreasonable]

Well what you are talking about is when the enemy is flying straight along unaware of you.  There should be no deflection or very little in your example.  Not all enemies are going to be that unaware.  They will see you dropping in and probably bank a hard right, trying to cut the angle of attack.  You have two choices then.   

 

1.  Pull high angle deflection, in which the target will be under your nose (and you will be blind when you fire).  Many BnZ kills are accomplished this way.  You lose nothing firing high angle, because if you miss you just go to Step two. 

 

2.  Pull up and extend.  If you have enough attitude and speed repeat the process.  If not, play the drag and bag game. 

 

If you played 1946 any, just think of a engagement between the 190 and spitfire, or hellcat and zeke.  Your principles are the same.

I think you are only thinking about the case when the attacker is diving from around the target's six o'clock and the target, and then you, start pulling Gs in roughly the same axis. Even so, this will give you a shot under the nose but not a particularly high deflection angle, (on most planes the target is out of sight below the nose as soon as it is outside the gunsight ring). Hence my confusion as to what you were talking about.

 

If I am flying (diving) north and the target is flying west, my deflection angle is 90% - this is a high deflection shot.

 

In this case if he turns towards me sharply enough to get under my flight line (and under my nose) there is no way I can "pull high angle deflection" unless I turn inverted (bad idea), so I climb again. This is why BnZ is best done in pairs at least, so that my wingman coming from the other direction now has a low deflection shot.

[unreasonable]

I'm agree with @Snake9  The  blind sport defection shoot skill is very hard to  practice but it pay off a lot  ,  many people deny this concept  inlcuding my team mate. so I have to made a lot of screen shot and  table deflection guild line show this concept is work  : ( see in my deflection correction link )

 

That is very nice blind deflection shooting (60% - max deflection is 90%, a head on shot has zero deflection, not 180%) but I have to point out that this was not a BnZ attack. You are below the target and only doing about 400kph. The Spitfire you shot down probably has more E than you do. You turn 73% and climb 210m during the attack. It is actually a well executed turnfight attack!

 

Anyway, confusion about terminology apart, I must practice some more!

[FlatSpinMan]

Well no doubt geometry is precise but have a look at how people are reacting to its application in the game. That is subjective.

[PreachR]

When I first started playing this game, it seemed like I needed more angle than in other games. I'm not 100% sure, but I think they changed it, because I was hitting everything, then I went through a period where I couldn't seem to hit anything, now it seems that I'm getting hits using less lead than I did in the beginning. Maybe it's just me, but the bullets just seemed heavier when I first started - like you just had to lob 'em out there way ahead of target.