Growing pains

[LLv34_Untamo]

3.) Online, for the most part, is IMO a total clusterf*** with too much e-sports/duel of two knights/gangbang-menthality for my likes. An overabundance of fighters and fighter-bombers and a total lack of what I consider historical realism (realistic targets that match the historical battle, accurate balance between aircraft types, etc) makes most of what I've seen online over the years pretty repetitive and drab. Just my 0,02 € ...

 

Totally agree on the part of most DF servers that they lack the historical bit and plane balance. On the other hand, SEOW campaigns don't. ~40 vs. 40 human pilots per mission dedicated to carry out their missions. I really recommend to join one. But they do require a bit more time than a sortie or two on DF server

Edited August 22, 2013 by LLv34_Untamo

[Original_Uwe]

Well ... I am an offliner by choice for several reasons.

 

1.) My online and squadron time has been over for a decade. I can't justify spending much of my little freetime on a squadron. And, in fact, I don't want to. My job alternates between stressful chaos and mind-numbing boredom with rarely a moment of balance in between the two. I find myself drained in the evening and prefer to "chill out" and recharge my batteries. As a result I rarely fly more than one or two missions a day, often none at all. Simply because I'm far too tired.

 

2.) I have a very hardcore attitude to historical facts. OOBs come straight out of history books without any adaptation for "fairness". This style isn't present online (or it requires far more effort than I am willing to spend).

 

3.) Online, for the most part, is IMO a total clusterf*** with too much e-sports/duel of two knights/gangbang-menthality for my likes. An overabundance of fighters and fighter-bombers and a total lack of what I consider historical realism (realistic targets that match the historical battle, accurate balance between aircraft types, etc) makes most of what I've seen online over the years pretty repetitive and drab. Just my 0,02 € ...

Preach it brother.

Online is not where it's at. It may be for a small percentage but remixes that the success of this sum depends on a good offline experience.

[Heywooood]

what stops me from joining a squadron or flying online in general has already been mentioned...the bickering, the lack of historical accuracy or fidelity to the tactics employed, the lack of discipline of any kind- and sure everyone talks a good game on the forums about that stuff but I've seen the reality...

 

then again - some of the most churlish forum posts are hissy fits between squadrons or quake fighters that spills over from the servers and lobbies into these boards (not this one yet but they're coming soon)

 

and then you have the time commitment - when can you fly? for how long?  I cant really schedule my fun, its usually a result of poor planing and execution on the part of my employer and customers....

and then when I do get a chance to fly: 1) I don't want to work at it - or have to commit to one hour blocks - let alone marathons  2) I don't want to spend half of my time listening to some argument ad nauseum about this planes porked guns and that ones porked engine or all of the biased FM's etc etcetc...I would pay huge for an R/T emulator that took the rubbish TS chatter and turned it into historically accurate R/T chatter (filtering out the BS that goes on entirely without me having to mute the damn thing all the time) ... and 3) its all about the score for most 'players' at the end of it and not really anything else...sometimes I just want to fly with my own thoughts

 

Thats why I don't fly online - I'm not missing anything - I really get irritated at that notion...some online players think that either the offline players dont realise they could be flying online...or that they are poor souls who never got a fair shake, jumped by those few bad guys online who only care about racking up points 

 

I flew online - a couple of different ways and it was always the same....everyone talks a good game in here...unless there's a row - but online its always the same..ahistoric skirmishes in limited plane sets with too much chatter and not enough regard...thank you, no

 

I'm not pro-offline or anti-online...people should be able to do what they like either way - these were just my experiences

Edited August 22, 2013 by Heywooood

[Horna]

Quite simple: Beginner servers + ranking system = veteran players are prohibited to access these servers so newbies won't have the "what's the point" feeling

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

Quite simple: Beginner servers + ranking system = veteran players are prohibited to access these servers so newbies won't have the "what's the point" feeling

That is wishful thinking, how is anyone supposed to impliment that?

As long as personal points are the center of affairs, you are going to have squabbels, reguardless beginners or not.

[6S.Manu]

what stops me from joining a squadron or flying online in general has already been mentioned...the bickering, the lack of historical accuracy or fidelity to the tactics employed, the lack of discipline of any kind- and sure everyone talks a good game on the forums about that stuff but I've seen the reality...

 

then again - some of the most churlish forum posts are hissy fits between squadrons or quake fighters that spills over from the servers and lobbies into these boards (not this one yet but they're coming soon)

 

and then you have the time commitment - when can you fly? for how long?  I cant really schedule my fun, its usually a result of poor planing and execution on the part of my employer and customers....

and then when I do get a chance to fly: 1) I don't want to work at it - or have to commit to one hour blocks - let alone marathons  2) I don't want to spend half of my time listening to some argument ad nauseum about this planes porked guns and that ones porked engine or all of the biased FM's etc etcetc...I would pay huge for an R/T emulator that took the rubbish TS chatter and turned it into historically accurate R/T chatter (filtering out the BS that goes on entirely without me having to mute the damn thing all the time) ... and 3) its all about the score for most 'players' at the end of it and not really anything else...sometimes I just want to fly with my own thoughts

 

Thats why I don't fly online - I'm not missing anything - I really get irritated at that notion...some online players think that either the offline players dont realise they could be flying online...or that they are poor souls who never got a fair shake, jumped by those few bad guys online who only care about racking up points 

 

I flew online - a couple of different ways and it was always the same....everyone talks a good game in here...unless there's a row - but online its always the same..ahistoric skirmishes in limited plane sets with too much chatter and not enough regard...thank you, no

 

I'm not pro-offline or anti-online...people should be able to do what they like either way - these were just my experiences

 

I totally agree about the "commitment" required..

 

Anyway I don't understand when you talk about fidelty of the tactics, lack of discipline (both as tactic application and TS management).

 

Probably you 're think to normal MP gameplay as you have to fly with stangers and it could be really frustrating. But it's not the case of virtual squads.

 

But be ware that squadrons can differ a lot:

1. They can be made by a bunch of guys who fly together only to rack kills: still they don't fly well but are all about "ganging" the enemies.
2. Some squads required rules to be followed, as the pilot needs to learn how to react in given situations, how to communicate in TS (few precise words and not blabbering) but without having to study real military books.
3. Other can be extremely simulative: the pilots have to read books, have to respect chain of command, procedures ect.

It's all in finding the correct one: as told at the beginning you are going to fly with people who like the game the way you do. Otherwise what the reason to create a squadron?

Edited August 22, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[Mac_Messer]

The quality of online experience depends on many many factors. The same rule applies everywhere, you have to search for the better servers. If you don`t want to give it some time, then online probably isn`t meant for you.

 

In the late days of the original IL2 some servers had free ongoing TS channels with multiple rooms. For either side. How it worked depended on the players themselves. Some even switched to enemy channels during flight. But that is just the way it is when you`re not very selective. That said, those TS channels solved lots of newbie problems. The problem is that not every newb is able to process information given through TS. 

[DD_Crash]

I would ask 777 to put in a link in the manual to advertise  Joint Ops training scheme http://www.joint-ops.com/ Lots of help there

[Zak]

I would ask 777 to put in a link in the manual to advertise  Joint Ops training scheme http://www.joint-ops.com/ Lots of help there

I'd recommend you to put it here for now http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/17-virtual-squadrons/ even thou it's not a squad

[Sgt_Joch]

Well ... I am an offliner by choice for several reasons.

 

1.) My online and squadron time has been over for a decade. I can't justify spending much of my little freetime on a squadron. And, in fact, I don't want to. My job alternates between stressful chaos and mind-numbing boredom with rarely a moment of balance in between the two. I find myself drained in the evening and prefer to "chill out" and recharge my batteries. As a result I rarely fly more than one or two missions a day, often none at all. Simply because I'm far too tired.

 

2.) I have a very hardcore attitude to historical facts. OOBs come straight out of history books without any adaptation for "fairness". This style isn't present online (or it requires far more effort than I am willing to spend).

 

3.) Online, for the most part, is IMO a total clusterf*** with too much e-sports/duel of two knights/gangbang-menthality for my likes. An overabundance of fighters and fighter-bombers and a total lack of what I consider historical realism (realistic targets that match the historical battle, accurate balance between aircraft types, etc) makes most of what I've seen online over the years pretty repetitive and drab. Just my 0,02 € ...

 

 

 

 That pretty much sums up my attitude as well. I have limited free time and never really know when I will have 1-2 hour of free time to devote to a mission. I play flight sims to immerse myself in the flying experience, i.e. read the mission brief, take off, fly in formation, carry out the mission, egress, land and occasionally enjoy the scenery. These days, the RoF solo career mode meets all these needs.

 

I fly online occasionally on the RoF servers, but always get turned off by the total non-historical feeling, i.e. everyone is flying around with 5% fuel?.

 

I actually do play a lot of online, but it is all combat mission PBEM games where you can play turns as your free time permits and you get a very historical, immersive experience.

Edited August 22, 2013 by 2Lt_Joch

[reddog=11blueleader*]

I agree with YELLOWSUB. I to am not a ace when it comes to air combat. I am a SP and for me it is still hard to kill the AI. I like ground targets as well but I know it is more satisfing to get a air kill. I never have tried MP. I do beleive with BOS I will give it a try!

[Heywooood]

I totally agree about the "commitment" required..

 

Anyway I don't understand when you talk about fidelty of the tactics, lack of discipline (both as tactic application and TS management).

 

Probably you 're think to normal MP gameplay as you have to fly with stangers and it could be really frustrating. But it's not the case of virtual squads.

 

But be ware that squadrons can differ a lot:

1. They can be made by a bunch of guys who fly together only to rack kills: still they don't fly well but are all about "ganging" the enemies.
2. Some squads required rules to be followed, as the pilot needs to learn how to react in given situations, how to communicate in TS (few precise words and not blabbering) but without having to study real military books.
3. Other can be extremely simulative: the pilots have to read books, have to respect chain of command, procedures ect.

It's all in finding the correct one: as told at the beginning you are going to fly with people who like the game the way you do. Otherwise what the reason to create a squadron?

so you have never heard the endless 'discussions' during a mission about the flight models, damage models, armament, opposing players etc...?

never comes up on any server in any squad?

 

because thats all I ever hear...granted - I am not willing to commit to a lot of squadron classroom time and book learning when I can just fly offline SP and not deal with any of that

[6S.Manu]

so you have never heard the endless 'discussions' during a mission about the flight models, damage models, armament, opposing players etc...?

never comes up on any server in any squad?

 

because thats all I ever hear...granted - I am not willing to commit to a lot of squadron classroom time and book learning when I can just fly offline SP and not deal with any of that

 

Yes of course!

 

I think competitive people will always whine at something but this can only motivate them to get better (or change sim...). I guess that sometimes even offline pilots whine at the AI and their uber-maneuvers. :-)

It's not really endless; a some point you realize that nothing can be done if not improving as pilot. So at the end you can laugh at that: my teammates mock me everytime we're talking about Spitfire and I've learned to enjoy those moments. That can act as glue between squad members.

 

Anyway if the whiner is really going too far you remind him that respect for teammates is the squad's #1 rule: if he has to cry then he can quit from TS without stressing people.

 

So whining does not last long.

Edited August 22, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[No601_Swallow]

so you have never heard the endless 'discussions' during a mission about the flight models, damage models, armament, opposing players etc...?

never comes up on any server in any squad?

 

because thats all I ever hear...granted - I am not willing to commit to a lot of squadron classroom time and book learning when I can just fly offline SP and not deal with any of that

 

Squadrons, when all is said and done, are social constructs. There are the same personality clashes, petty obsessions and bickering that there are in RL (in my experience). But there is also the same loyalty, mutual support and friendship, which, incidently, often "spills over" into RL, in my experience

 

Similarly, squadrons can evolve or stagnate (my own is sailing close to that particular reef, but is finally hauling itself onto the good ship CloD, while licking its collective lips (eugh!) at the prospect of BoS),  or they can grow or fall apart, again just like any RL club or group.

 

Obviously, the social aspect of all this is not to everyone's liking. My own squadron has pretty strong social ties, partly because of the commitments (not very many) that me make. We all try to fly together at least twice a week and we also have many history and aviation buffs who insist on flying historically based missions in very well designed campaigns, which helps. It always feels there is a long term adventure we're on. And no fiction can match what actually happened in terms of challenge or excitement.

 

But again, obviously, you get out of the game (and your squadron) what you're willing to put in, in terms of time, effort and perseverance. This is all just stating the obvious. Obviously. 

 

To address again, though, the central point of this whole discussion: squadrons are particularly useful for "noobies" or people new to to the hobby. They are the quickest and easiest way to get good(ish) at the game and to start enjoying it. In my (and many others') humble opinions. 

 

I want to bump my previous suggestion (http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/1082-growing-pains/?p=21635) about including a link to the the virtual squadron page on the launch screen of the game itself, to encourage newcomers to seek help.

 

And I'd like to expand on my secondary point, that it would be great if the virtual squadron page could be reorganised. Would it be possible for squadrons to fill in some online form, so information (including timetables, commitments, philosophy, etc) could be displayed in a systemized way? A database (whatever that is...)? Way beyond my  technical know-how, unfortunately, but it would be nice. I also liked the suggestion that squadrons post up recruitment "posters" on the forum as well.

Edited August 23, 2013 by No601_Swallow

[VeryOldMan]

You're absolutely correct. However, I've always wondered if the low percentage of online players was simply due to lack of knowledge about what might be available outside the offline experience. My proposal was to make it clear to players who have bought the game off the shelf, with no previous experience of flight sims and who may not visit the forums, that there is a wider world available to those who care to try it.

 

If it weren't for the squadron that I joined, I'm not sure that I'd even be reading this forum.

 

W.

 

 

The fact that you needed to  find out yourself about hypper lobby was one of the reasons. The  game MUST have  match finding BUILT IN!!!!

 

 

On training new pilots. When i got onlien first tiem got squashed very very hard.  Then I went and watched the  "online"tracks  recorded int he game....  and  payed a lot of attention,  read  tutorials  on internet.. and went back.. and started  doign some things right.

 

That is important.  An acessible from INSIDE GAME pdf  with lots of pictures and examples of what are basics of air combat is a MUST!!!

[II./JG27_Rich]

If there is a way maybe try to keep an eye out for a friendly experienced pilot and start up a conversation. Chances are he'll be fine with showing you some tricks and giving you advice on all sorts of things that are very important in online flying. He will probably have friends of his own and sooner or later you'll know a lot of people.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Richie

[nynek]

The solution to all multiplayer problems was found MANY years ago. It is called COOP. All current flight sims developers are playing dumb, deaf and blind. They give You 15 minutes startup procedures, map the size of half the earth and They expect that those 20 to 50 people find each other and have fun. Repeat after me COOP. You are coming to the server and you have a choice of two, max three overlaping missions. Missions with flight structure ,flightpath and GOALS. After 3 minutes of flight in formation anybody in that flight knows everything about abilities of the rest of the team. In that case rookie has a lot more chance to survive than alone against 4 veterans on teamspeak. Look at Youtube. This squadron thing videos are about shooting rats in the barrel with the shotgun. Coop is THE answer to all problems. You are grouping people in one place on the huge map, misssions are starting to look like something You read in the book and there is no more 5 fighters against 4 bombers stuff. Knowing, that by buying the flight sim I'm paying some "Market Research Specialist" is most frustrating part of virtual flying for me.

 

nynek

Edited August 24, 2013 by nynek

[HagarTheHorrible]

Note to self " When taking aim, remember to use a rifle and not a blunderbuss" otherwise projectiles can quickly take unexpected turns.  When I suggested On-line is where it's at I didn't mean to decry single player, only that it is often (if not always) more challenging and satisfying taking on a real person than a computer, now if that existed in a single player dynamic world that would be heaven.

 

Now back to the task in hand and this applies equally to both on and off-line. Training, it always helps to have a guiding hand, if that hand is human then all the better.  It's all very well reading a hundred books and looking at a thousand pictures but at the end of the day it's not ideal if you only have yourself to judge if you are doing something correctly (or not).

 

So here's a bone, a small one perhaps but something to get your teeth into.

 

A specific training server  (Yes, I know it's been done before).  How about it being slightly more official/organized though, rather than just turning up on a  training server hoping to latch onto someone who isn't just out looking for easy kills ?   How about it being set up with specific objectives at specific pre organized times.  Basics, Formation, Navigation  BFM etc etc.  It could be set up as a roster, with pilots who feel able to help and explain, volunteering to give half an hour or an hour of their time as and when for the training of new pilots.  The tutors simply put their name down for a spare slot at a certain time, with a certain task, and how many they are willing to train ( I think two trainers per time slot would be better than one individual).  Newbies or even intermediates can then pop their names down in the vacant training slots, or if there are still vacancies, turn up on the night in the hope of fitting in. 

 

I know it's nothing radical (baby steps) but I was thinking about how my wife's club gets new people involved in her club (she rows, international level, several years ago, not that I'm boasting).  On a Sunday morning after a normal club outing a couple of the club members (they don't need to be expert rowers, just competent and not to stupid) are rostered, for a couple of hours to look after and organize anybody new who turns up and fancies their hand at a bit of rowing .  Admittedly it's not always the most popular club duty because the club is only small and consequently duty comes around more often than in bigger clubs. It is however crucial to getting new blood in, keeping the club alive and kicking and several new start members have even gone on to become part of the UK rowing squad.

 

I'm also aware that this training is often undertaken by various Squads, and Squads have been mentioned several times in this thread, but it has also been noted that not everyone is prepared, or able, to commit to a defined Squad.  This is possibly even more true for those who are taking their first steps and are unsure of themselves or even if flight simming is for them at all.

 

While I have absolutely no talent, apart from maybe a very dodgy sense of humour, I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man for a simple third party roster to be produced by someone clever to organize training sessions, with one and all being able to fill in the available blanks, whether it be to mentor or learn ?

 

Possibly as an incentive to encourage people to give up their free time to help others, as many already do, 777 could have some sort of recognition system  (RoF already has this if not specifically for training)  for example a series of medals displayed next to a persons avatar on the forums (wasn't it Napoleon who said something about what men would do for a bit of ribbon ?).

[Mac_Messer]

That concept, more or less, was in the squad I belonged to in IL2 days. We had an additional training Staffel with two training officers that qualified recruits and trained them to help getting with online flying. It worked for the most time as the recruits did get some nice flight education at the start. The biggest problem my squadron had is that the training officers themselves were just average pilots. So they taught the basics well but when it came to actually competing, only few of our recruits had the patience to keep flying in online wars, where our best virtual pilots flew . There was a recognition system alright - training officers were the ones high ranking in the squad. Still, for every hour doing the training others the job they did, every another hours was that they did not fly in competitive environment. So in time there was a major difference in skills between training officers and those who flew in online wars every available hour. For the same reason the best pilots formed their own group with their own comm procedures that weren`t that much in line with what had been taught during the training period. Eventually we found that for a virtual squad consisting of people with limited time, only two or three v. pilots were the classic students raised to aces. Most of our aces were transfers of already potent aces from other squads. Now that I think about it, basicly the only thing which worked pretty well directly because of training officers, were Jabo and bomber pilots performance. They sucked at pretty much everything else than bombing.

 

As always, it is easier if a rookie pilot knows what he wants from the game. Are you a wannabe ace flying with competitive squaddies or are you a sunday free for all fun flying.

[VeryOldMan]

what stops me from joining a squadron or flying online in general has already been mentioned...the bickering, the lack of historical accuracy or fidelity to the tactics employed, the lack of discipline of any kind- and sure everyone talks a good game on the forums about that stuff but I've seen the reality...

 

then again - some of the most churlish forum posts are hissy fits between squadrons or quake fighters that spills over from the servers and lobbies into these boards (not this one yet but they're coming soon)

 

and then you have the time commitment - when can you fly? for how long?  I cant really schedule my fun, its usually a result of poor planing and execution on the part of my employer and customers....

and then when I do get a chance to fly: 1) I don't want to work at it - or have to commit to one hour blocks - let alone marathons  2) I don't want to spend half of my time listening to some argument ad nauseum about this planes porked guns and that ones porked engine or all of the biased FM's etc etcetc...I would pay huge for an R/T emulator that took the rubbish TS chatter and turned it into historically accurate R/T chatter (filtering out the BS that goes on entirely without me having to mute the damn thing all the time) ... and 3) its all about the score for most 'players' at the end of it and not really anything else...sometimes I just want to fly with my own thoughts

 

Thats why I don't fly online - I'm not missing anything - I really get irritated at that notion...some online players think that either the offline players dont realise they could be flying online...or that they are poor souls who never got a fair shake, jumped by those few bad guys online who only care about racking up points 

 

I flew online - a couple of different ways and it was always the same....everyone talks a good game in here...unless there's a row - but online its always the same..ahistoric skirmishes in limited plane sets with too much chatter and not enough regard...thank you, no

 

I'm not pro-offline or anti-online...people should be able to do what they like either way - these were just my experiences

 

 

I think the issue you face is  of expectation. You expect  everyone to feel the game as the same escapade  as you, but most people  are not  into "roleplaying", most peopel do nto find it fun. Most people  want to   have an interesting, and generally realistic  combat experience. That is why  most people do not like missions where they take off  .. fidn no enemy on their patrol  and land back. That is what a RL pilot would LOVE, but we are  in a computer game, trying to relax, most people want the "fun part" . 

 

What you seems to be expecting is a theatrical recreation, on that case sorry but you will be in  the minority of a niche inside a niche...

The solution to all multiplayer problems was found MANY years ago. It is called COOP. All current flight sims developers are playing dumb, deaf and blind. They give You 15 minutes startup procedures, map the size of half the earth and They expect that those 20 to 50 people find each other and have fun. Repeat after me COOP. You are coming to the server and you have a choice of two, max three overlaping missions. Missions with flight structure ,flightpath and GOALS. After 3 minutes of flight in formation anybody in that flight knows everything about abilities of the rest of the team. In that case rookie has a lot more chance to survive than alone against 4 veterans on teamspeak. Look at Youtube. This squadron thing videos are about shooting rats in the barrel with the shotgun. Coop is THE answer to all problems. You are grouping people in one place on the huge map, misssions are starting to look like something You read in the book and there is no more 5 fighters against 4 bombers stuff. Knowing, that by buying the flight sim I'm paying some "Market Research Specialist" is most frustrating part of virtual flying for me.

 

nynek

 

 

Most  people want to   get into game  and take off  soon and go have fun.  Not many have 40-50 mintues of preparation and waiting the   team to fill up for coops.   That is why the  developers do not focus on it. The  largest public is on the middle ground, where realism is only interestign up to the point where  you do not need to  recreate the "BORING" parts and do not  need to spend 60 minutes to have  5 minutes of fun.

 

Sorry, but peopel need to realize this is a business  and  on a niche that cannot afford to be too extremist or the game will  not takeoff!

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Virtual flight schools may be the answer. I don't want to rehash the whole thread but I think this may be the answer, as I've thought about it for a while now. There are several additional ideas from members including the Joint Ops solution which I wholly support.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/334-training/

 

And after much discussion I do not think co-ops are the be all end all solution nor do I think they offer as much of a training opportunity as a flight school for BFM, ACM and CFM with dedicated flight instructors with low student to instructor ratios.

 

The idea, from a prospective pilot AND squadrons is to have fun and get up to speed quickly. Not to mention attracting new members to the genre and having them become pilots you want to fly with or against. Flight schools and squadrons are also the place to teach the etiquette of our pastime. Handing a 13 year old a virtual Spitfire and not showing him how to use it or how to interact with the community is also a bad thing.

Edited August 28, 2013 by HerrMurf