CAS / Mud moving (vs. tanks) advice needed

[Coolts]

First post over here so please be gentle.

Having sworn to never sign up for a beta after the disappointing debacle of….. a previous IL-2 game….. I cracked on Saturday and bought the game.

After spending a few very frustrating hours flailing about in a Bf 109 cursing the yo-yo rudder, I moved to “old faithful” Sturmovik and felt instantly at home again J`

The Yaw / seesaw motion of the rudder still seems off to me, but it’s not seasickness inducing like in the German plane (this might be realistic, I wouldn’t know, but I couldn’t stand it).

So I setup a mission with ground targets and set about familiarising myself.  Yes, I know I should fly traffic patterns and learn how to do proper start-ups and taxiing first, but after learning DCS: Black shark, A-10, P-51 and Falcon BMS to the level of anal ridiculousness, I just wanted to shoot something and this game lets me do that without much fuss! (I can’t be bothered with CEM if I’ve not got a clickable cockpit to be honest).

Or it would if I was doing it right.  (I never could get the hang of bombing without a CCIP or CCRP reticule)!

I can plink trains and road vehicles but the T-34’s are very tough and I don’t have a Gau-8A Avenger  30mm at my disposal, so I need to learn proper CAS procedure when attacking armour.

• Start altitude for attack
• Approx. dive angle / speed
• Approx. distance / alt to engage
• Cannons / guns/ both?
• Are the modelled rockets AP or general explosive for soft targets?
• Is tank armour thickness modelled?  Against T-72’s for example, an A-10 will engage the thinner top and rear armour if possible.

I seem to end my runs too low as the variety of burning trees and unplanned field ‘modifications’ to the Russian scenery testify.  All great fun!

Any advice would be much appreciated.

I’m really enjoying the experience though. The theatre is a nice change.  Once we have 100’s of ground units engaging at the same time, it will be damn atmospheric. 777 have good track record of supporting their products form my experience, although I never really warmed to ROF as I like fast movers, but their experience in the slower birds seems to have added a great deal of grunt and heft to the WW2 aircraft.

I love opening the canopy and sticking my head out like a dog!!  I can’t do that in an A-10 J

[Tyberan]

I had the same issues as you with CAS stuff. 

 

I really like the Ju87 with the 37mm cannons, for practice I use unlimited ammo just to get the hang of the guns. I start at a height of around 250m or so, about 1.5-2km out from target. I use zoom to aim and try to keep the speed under 400km/h. 

 

However the guns are quite inaccurate even at their default convergence of 500m, i find I need to be closer to hit, and two shots (2x2 rounds) is enough to kill T-34 and yes i think armour is modelled because they are easier to hit from the rear and sides. 

 

Also I found you can disable ground targets, even if you think you missed, press F5 to cycle camera through ground targets sometimes they stop and then smoke starts pouring out. Its great immersion.

 

I took note of the gun camera footage from the real plane.As you can see they get very close. 

 

Edited September 15, 2014 by Tyberan

[Coolts]

Damn that is close! And he's just firing 1 or two dual cannon bursts and they are so close they are not even converging!  Mind you, that guy is a legend, (and we cant see the camera zoom level!).

I need to try and dampen my rudder authority as even with a dead zone, touching it starts it seesawing and puts the aim off causing me to spray all over the target area.

 

I will try higher and steeper dives, hopefully it will give me tighter groupings..  I've not tried the Stuka yet.  In the A-10 I usually dive at about 40-60 degrees to get a good angle on the top armour and tight groupings.  The higher the angle the better but the scarier the pull off.

[pilotpierre]

Coolts, with the 109's you need to adjust your pitch with the stabiliser assembly but you need to assign it. I'm not in front of my computer at present and I cant remember the correct nomenclature for it. Most use the same assignment as for the other aircraft elevator adjustments.

 

I find the 37mm cannon on the LaGG 3 the best way to knock out German tanks and I don't think I have ever knocked out Soviet tanks using gunfire other than the Stuka mit der biggengobangunderderwingen.

 

Welcome to the Forum and the game.

[Pharoah]

I've been spending my time on the Eagle US server doing gun runs on german tanks with the IL2 and 37mm cannon. Agreed, you have to hit them from behind or from the rear (I've seen what I thought was a fuel tank exploding which was cool). I've also noticed that when you turn to attack from behind, most of the german tanks will actually turn left/right thereby presenting you with side armour which was actually quite cool (ie. they're taking evasive action knowing their vulnerability from the rear). 

 

The convergence is horrible @ 500m but I understand this change is coming soon. Otherwise I just bore straight in and try to get as stable as I can before placing atleast 1 of the rounds on the tank. Have managed to get a few kills that way. I've also damaged tanks (they smoke/stop but don't burn) as well. 

 

I'm hoping for more tanks/vehicles to be added.

 

also, the 37mm works wonders on closely parked aircraft!

[FlatSpinMan]

Dart made great vids about this for the old il2. I'll try and find the link for you.

[Tyberan]

Not quite a tutorial but interesting none the less. Vid of the Yanks beating up ground targets in Japan, I can't believe how low they flew. Also the German saying that they shot at anything moved even stray dogs seems true.

 

 

 

 

Skip to the 2min mark for ground targets. But the first 2mins is still interesting dog fights.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Tyberan

[t4trouble]

Not quite a tutorial but interesting none the less. Vid of the Yanks beating up ground targets in Japan, I can't believe how low they flew. Also the German saying that they shot at anything moved even stray dogs seems true.

 

 

 

 

Skip to the 2min mark for ground targets. But the first 2mins is still interesting dog fights.

At 1:15 the pilot separates from his chute, not strapped up proper ?

[MarcoRossolini]

Not quite a tutorial but interesting none the less. Vid of the Yanks beating up ground targets in Japan, I can't believe how low they flew. Also the German saying that they shot at anything moved even stray dogs seems true.

 

 

 

 

Skip to the 2min mark for ground targets. But the first 2mins is still interesting dog fights.

 

That run of footage is more emotional to me than half a dozen war movies.

I think the fact that it's in colour is what hits you most, there's no separation like there is in black and white. A couple of time you feel like you're watching a war movie (with the explosion etc generally) but then you think "holy ****, this is real." 

 

I think what was most notable for me was how you at one point could see little guys running across the beach, poor devils. I won't complain about aircraft in movies strafing individual people ever again.

 

That's some brave flying though at such low levels.

 

 

With regards to ground attack, Dart's video has it all, line it up well before the attack. Let the plane drop into place, rather than you forcing it and then blaze away. Personally though against tanks I take rockets or bombs any day of the week, such satisfying explosions... Save the guns for soft targets.

[Finkeren]

I sucked horribly at CAS with guns and rockets in the beginning, and I believe that accuracy in ground attack is strongly tied to ones general ability to control the aircraft. In any case my practice flying fighters has certainly improved my mud moving as well. Still can't hit anything with rockets, but that I just see as realism. Rockets in WW2 were not so much "aimed" as they were pointed in a general direction and let loose.

 

About hitting tanks:

 

The 37mm guns can deal with them just fine but require accuracy and work best from a steeper attack angle where you can penetrate the top armour. The twin NS-37s on the IL-2 are useless as anything but single shot weapons.

 

Rocket attack is pure spray-n-pray against such small targets, and the weak Soviet rockets are unlikely to achieve a kill against a hard target anyway. I say don't bother.

 

Bombs are fairly effective as long as you use the heavier ones. Anything below 100kg requires pretty much a direct hit.

 

Overall tanks represent the hardest targets by far, which is not surprising given how extremely difficult they were to kill from aircraft in WW2, where ground attack pilots often overclaimed by as much as 10 to 1 when attacking tanks. A tank kill can be fairly hard to determine from the air and usually any direct hit was counted as a "kill" though that was seldom the case.

[Tyberan]

That run of footage is more emotional to me than half a dozen war movies.

I think the fact that it's in colour is what hits you most, there's no separation like there is in black and white. A couple of time you feel like you're watching a war movie (with the explosion etc generally) but then you think "holy ****, this is real." 

 

I think what was most notable for me was how you at one point could see little guys running across the beach, poor devils. I won't complain about aircraft in movies strafing individual people ever again.

 

That's some brave flying though at such low levels.

 

 

With regards to ground attack, Dart's video has it all, line it up well before the attack. Let the plane drop into place, rather than you forcing it and then blaze away. Personally though against tanks I take rockets or bombs any day of the week, such satisfying explosions... Save the guns for soft targets.

 

I couldn't agree more about that film. Like you said it being in colour and then seeing them strafe two poor bastards on the beach hit it home. 

 

I have a real problem aiming rockets, I seem to misjudge their flight angle. I either overshoot or undershoot the target.

[FlatSpinMan]

Found it!

Apart from anything else, they're just entertaining.

[unreasonable]

It's the Yak from Ipanema.....

[oneeyeddog]

I think the tanks in Bos are almost as vulnerable from the side as they are from the rear, and you have a slightly bigger target. Its extremely hard for me to hit vehicles at distance so I get very very close before firing often pulling up thru shrapnel smoke and flame.Too often I ram my target- I have to work on this. With rockets, and even the 37mm gunpods it may be more accurate to aim individual wings as, for me at least, I tend to get so close to my target that my rockets/ rounds nearly straddle. If you are going tank hunting make sure you take all AP rounds as HE is not effective. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

At 1:15 the pilot separates from his chute, not strapped up proper ?

No, watch it in full screen. The pilot moves right with the chute and is still attached. I think the object falling away is just the bag which contains the chute.

Dart made great vids about this for the old il2. I'll try and find the link for you.

Dart's video's are top notch. Highly recommended.

[Coolts]

I break the "don't use the rudder" rule every time.  An old DCS-A-10 habit. I will try without as PIO does not help!!  But the sway isn't to bad in the IL-2 and even less in the Stuka.

 

The American footage there just looks like spray and pray, but they were after collateral damage I guess, not pinpoint tank plinking, unlike Rudels footage where it looks like the Luftwaffe were making the pilots pay for their own ammo

 

I will try dedicated anti tank load outs, (AP ammo and bombs)

 

<pilotpierre>  I have the stabilizer mapped

[Sokol1]

Rudel tips.

 

 

 

Sokol1

Edited September 16, 2014 by Sokol1

[II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33]

First post over here so please be gentle.

Having sworn to never sign up for a beta after the disappointing debacle of….. a previous IL-2 game….. I cracked on Saturday and bought the game.

After spending a few very frustrating hours flailing about in a Bf 109 cursing the yo-yo rudder, I moved to “old faithful” Sturmovik and felt instantly at home again J`

The Yaw / seesaw motion of the rudder still seems off to me, but it’s not seasickness inducing like in the German plane (this might be realistic, I wouldn’t know, but I couldn’t stand it).

So I setup a mission with ground targets and set about familiarising myself.  Yes, I know I should fly traffic patterns and learn how to do proper start-ups and taxiing first, but after learning DCS: Black shark, A-10, P-51 and Falcon BMS to the level of anal ridiculousness, I just wanted to shoot something and this game lets me do that without much fuss! (I can’t be bothered with CEM if I’ve not got a clickable cockpit to be honest).

Or it would if I was doing it right.  (I never could get the hang of bombing without a CCIP or CCRP reticule)!

I can plink trains and road vehicles but the T-34’s are very tough and I don’t have a Gau-8A Avenger  30mm at my disposal, so I need to learn proper CAS procedure when attacking armour.

• Start altitude for attack
• Approx. dive angle / speed
• Approx. distance / alt to engage
• Cannons / guns/ both?
• Are the modelled rockets AP or general explosive for soft targets?
• Is tank armour thickness modelled?  Against T-72’s for example, an A-10 will engage the thinner top and rear armour if possible.

I seem to end my runs too low as the variety of burning trees and unplanned field ‘modifications’ to the Russian scenery testify.  All great fun!

Any advice would be much appreciated.

I’m really enjoying the experience though. The theatre is a nice change.  Once we have 100’s of ground units engaging at the same time, it will be damn atmospheric. 777 have good track record of supporting their products form my experience, although I never really warmed to ROF as I like fast movers, but their experience in the slower birds seems to have added a great deal of grunt and heft to the WW2 aircraft.

I love opening the canopy and sticking my head out like a dog!!  I can’t do that in an A-10 J

As for the seesaw motion of the Yak and 109, If you move the rudder in a real plane and don't smoothly center it the plane won't just snap back to a straight track it will yaw back and fourth for a second as there is pent up energy.

[Pharoah]

I've watched most videos of strafing on youtube and thats got to be by far the best I've seen to date. 

[Coolts]

Rudel tips.

 

 

 

Sokol1

 

 

I wonder what his start altitude is.  I think I'm always way too low giving myself too little time to line up properly and leaving me too low after the attack to pull out safely every time as last nights kamikaze experiments proved to me. 

 

My new favourite pastime is train plinking though.  Its the most fun I've had in a flight sim since I realised you could fly under the golden gate bridge in F/A-18 interceptor way back!  I may become a dedicated rail interdictor!

[Coolts]

That run of footage is more emotional to me than half a dozen war movies.

I think the fact that it's in colour is what hits you most, there's no separation like there is in black and white. A couple of time you feel like you're watching a war movie (with the explosion etc generally) but then you think "holy ****, this is real." 

 

I think what was most notable for me was how you at one point could see little guys running across the beach, poor devils. I won't complain about aircraft in movies strafing individual people ever again.

 

That's some brave flying though at such low levels.

 

 

With regards to ground attack, Dart's video has it all, line it up well before the attack. Let the plane drop into place, rather than you forcing it and then blaze away. Personally though against tanks I take rockets or bombs any day of the week, such satisfying explosions... Save the guns for soft targets.

 

On the A-G stuff.  Those guys are using their rudder a LOT.  You can tell by the characteristic sway (3:00+)

[BeastyBaiter]

I made a little video a few minutes ago of me strafing tanks on the LD server. Nothing fancy, no commentary but it does show pretty well the angles involved. I'm using an IL-2 with 37mm (AP only) + 4x 50kg bombs. No gunner, no rockets, flying open pit nearly the entire time. My own experience is that the angle of attack on tanks is irrelevant in BoS. Armor does not seem to be modeled beyond anything under a certain caliber does 0 damage. I find it easiest to hit them from the sides due to the larger silhouette. Once we have gun convergence, I'll likely drop it from 500m to 150-200m. As you can see in the video, I'm basically only aiming one gun at the tanks.

 

http://youtu.be/QYB4bJ1LnUw

[Coolts]

Impressive stuff there.  Thanks for the video.  A few points I noticed;

 

1. You are in a very shallow dive of no more than 30 degrees at most.  If, as you say, armour thickness is not modelled then this means you don't need steep, short dives and can wallow a little. This might not work when tank gunners start firing back though.
2. you are very low after your runs. 10m (30ft), is INSANELY low to my mind, (coming from an A-10 that is, where I set a hard floor at 300ft (90m).

 

I will try this over the next few days.  I'm going to stuck with the stuka as I've been trying each plane out and am no good with any of them as a result

 

Cheers

[BeastyBaiter]

1) I couldn't tell you the exact angle, but yes, it is very shallow. It's actually very similar to what I do when low level bombing, which you can see me do to finish off a tank towards the end. I fly the Stuka with gunpods the same way.

 

2) I suppose, but I rarely crash these days.